Quick question about a paid membership

[hilary]

To be clear... I don't want to convert this forum, as is, into something just for paying members. It wouldn't feel right. But I'd like to create an upgraded membership, with some extras, that does cost a monthly fee.

It seems to me there are two ways I could go with this: big or small.

A 'small' version would mostly be about providing more and better ways for people to communicate. A bigger private message box (I think it'd make sense to shrink the one that comes with the free membership), private forums, live meetings by phone or whatever technology works best without getting in the way. Maybe a wiki so people's best contributions can be collected together and accessed more easily. This could be maybe $5-$10/month. (Depending on whether the extra technology costs much - hopefully it wouldn't - and whether I made a significant time commitment.)

A 'big' version would include everything from the 'small' version, but would also come with lots of my personal time for readings, or calls/ classes, and could also come with lots of extra information. (I'm thinking of information/ interpretive suggestions on each hexagram, for instance, supplied in various different media so you could take your reading with you to listen to during the commute...) And depending on how much time I contributed, it might cost between $20-$40/month.

Both versions could include discounts of proportionate size on my other offerings. (Eg they could come with a coupon each month to the same value as the membership.)

Before we get into the details of what would be valuable to include, I'd like to hear which size to aim at. Hence the poll question.

[rosada]

I voted for the small fee, but I'd like to see what just asking for donations would do. Maybe you could take a poll asking "If I posted a donation button do you feel you would donate?"

[hilary]

I don't think I need to take a poll about that - actions speak louder! I actually made the 'donate' link smaller in this layout because the larger version we had before wasn't earning its screen space - but it shouldn't be too hard to tweak the template and make it more prominent. One thing at a time, though. Thank you for being the first to vote :)

[toganm]

Hi Hilary

To be clear... I don't want to convert this forum, as is, into something just for paying members. It wouldn't feel right. But I'd like to create an upgraded membership, with some extras, that does cost a monthly fee.

It seems to me there are two ways I could go with this: big or small.

......


In my understanding your poll is to provide a choice for a solution. However, in order to provide a solution one should first of all understand the need of the customer. So my question is for what specific need of your customers (in this very specif poll the members of the forum) you are providing the fee based membership product.

My suggestion would be ask questions to gather information what people are needing. In order to do that you need to follow your heart and make it your true teacher and forget the monkey mind.

Hope this helps
Togan

[meng]

I can't comment on whether I'd pay for something until I know what I'd be paying for.

[hilary]

Let me see if I can answer both. (There will be more questions about what people need - or rather what they want - later. One thing at a time, though, or everyone'll suffer survey fatigue.) I want to get an idea of which holds more attraction for people before getting into the minutiae of what each would contain.

Small paid membership

Meeting a desire for more and better communication and co-operation with other members.

Could include - according to demand -


private forum/s only visible to members
live phone/ webinar events
a wiki (to gather our interpretations, methods etc in a more useful, accessible way)
more private messaging and email-to-member privileges
Higher price if I make a commitment to show up for the events and in the forum, less if I don't.

I'd probably withdraw some privileges from the free membership to make the difference more worthwhile. Not sure what. Access to the complete archives, maybe? The right to include a link in your signature? To send direct email to members?

Bigger paid membership

Meeting a desire - if there is one - for support in a deep, ongoing relationship with Yi.

Could include - according to demand - any or all of these (or anything else that members suggested would help):


All the above (because improved communication with other members would be a big part of that suppport)
Materials to help interpret and apply each hexagram. For instance, a sequence to help explore each hexagram as a weekly reading. Daily email, or daily audio (listen to your hexagram while you commute); images, questions, maybe video, as well as just 'what it means' type text. (There would be some delay while I created all this...)
'Reading groups' - support/ technology/ materials to create them online or locally
Interviews with experts from related fields who can give us new perspectives on staying connected. (Members suggest experts, I do my best to bring them in.)
Single calls/ 'workshops'/?? on specifics - like 'interpreting with trigrams' or 'relationship readings'.
A regular slot when I'm available to help briefly with members' readings - maybe a time when I hold the phone / Skype free for them, or regular conference call.
Either whacking discounts on or free access to whatever I write next (and, of course, the biggest say in what that is)
Reduced-price readings or mentoring.For instance.

Personally I get very excited about the possibilities of the bigger version. I love the idea of developing something like this in company with a group of people who are as enthusiastic as I am about divination as a kind of regular practice of connection. I think it could become immensely valuable. I'd pay for it.

Right now, from the modest sample we have, it doesn't look as though anyone else would. Maybe later, with a better economic climate... maybe in a 'modular' way, with optional add-ons to the basic membership...

[heylise]

There are actually not 3 bars in the poll, but 4: the number of voters. So far 12 people did vote, that too is a sign of what people are interested in. Most of all how many.
This looks as if you might make 45 to 90 $ a month with it. And to me it looks like a huge amount of work...

And yet - I too have a feeling something should work, as if the potential is there. Trying to create an image in my mind of WHAT I want to go to when I go to the internet. Clarity is about the only place which interests me. I have a lack of time, but with more time I'd come more often. What would make me come anyway? "No time" has a habit of moving to the place which does not have your first interest.

Have to think more about it, create a little paradise in my mind and then transform it to 'something internet'.

LiSe

[ben_s]

Hilary, is there a way you can offer a range of packages?

Check this out from the music business: http://ghosts.nin.com/.

A rock star wanted to make an instrumental album, which is very hard to sell these days with a standard record company and radio airplay.

He made the album in his home studio, inviting over some guest musicians for a couple of months. They made two hours of music. Then the musician made a great web site.

The first hour is free and streaming on the web site. The whole two hour set, plus a 40 page pdf, is downloadable from the site for $10. For those who like to handle CD's, adding a pair of CD's brings the total to $20. For those who like the art, adding an art book in a big box, along with two high-resolution discs (all the original files, plus a high-definition mix with slide show), brings the total to $75. For hard-core collectors, there's a signed, limited edition set of 2,500 copies - one per customer - including vinyl LP's and standalone art prints - at $300 - all sold out. All orders include immediate download from the web site. Preorders started two months before delivery. In other words, he doesn't have to send money to the manufacturing plant until after he knows how many have already sold.

Whether or not you like the music, the marketing here is brilliant!

Is there something you can learn from NIN?

[toganm]

Let me see if I can answer both.
Not an answer to my question


So my question is for what specific need of your customers (in this very specif poll the members of the forum) you are providing the fee based membership product.

What you have provided is a product/service and now you are trying to create a need for it. So you need to work more to convince people that is what they need, want and desire. Therefore my question still stays the same how did you come to the conclusion of the details you gave regarding your paid membership details which makes you think addresses the needs of your customers.

On the other hand if you understand the needs, wants and desires first and then provide a product/service you do not have to work too hard to convince people since it will address the needs.

Togan

[hilary]

On the other hand if you understand the needs, wants and desires first and then provide a product/service you do not have to work too hard to convince people since it will address the needs.Exactly. Absolutely. Very well put.
What you have provided is a product/service and now you are trying to create a need for it.No. I've done that a lot before, and it hasn't worked. (Surprise!) What I'm doing here is trying to find out whether there is a need for a suggested service.
So you need to work more to convince people that is what they need, want and desire.No - I need to find out what they, in fact, need, want and desire. As you implied, working to convince people they want something is a struggle. It can be done, but it requires some very specialised and high-paid skills I don't have.
how did you come to the conclusion of the details you gave regarding your paid membership details which makes you think addresses the needs of your customers.I haven't reached any conclusions. I've looked at what people use here and say they appreciate and consider worth paying for (although it's free); I've also looked at what I perceive to be a) desirable (a reliable, fluent relationship with Yi) and b) needed to make that possible, and dreamt up ways that such desires and needs could be met. But if the desire doesn't exist - or not focussed in on Yi, anyway - then I need to go back to the drawing board. Hence, no conclusions.

Ben - yes. That 'stepped' model makes a lot of sense. Another is a more modular one, ie different packages that are less obviously an incremental series of upgrades. That might fit better here, as it's less obvious what is more valuable: eg more content vv more contact, different people would value that different ways.

LiSe, what you say about 'no time' is absolutely true: it means 'other ways of spending it are more important to me.' (Same with 'no money', sometimes.) And about the 4 bars... yes, but it's not obvious how to interpret the 4th bar. Eg

'I already gave you my opinion at length, I don't have time for this.'
'I wouldn't buy anything from you, and I don't want to mess up your results.'
'I wouldn't buy this and I don't want to hurt your feelings by saying so.'
'It's morally wrong for you to try to make a living from the Yi at all.'
'I can't vote - don't know why.' [not logged in]
'It doesn't say what the offers would include.'
'I don't want you to know what I said and start bugging me to buy things.'
'I can't decide until it's on sale.'
'I can't say for sure if I'd buy, so it's not fair to vote and maybe give you a false impression.'
'You're asking me to do your job - the cheek of it!'As well as of course

this particular suggestion isn't interesting to me, though something else might beThis kind of moment is one reason why intuition, divination, soul-searching and some hasty revision of what I know about surveying all come into this as well as quick polls... :rolleyes:

[hilary]

Actually, when it comes to continuing membership, there's a whole other issue. Quoting my I Ching Class sales letter:
This is why I'll be offering an ongoing membership later this year, where I'll progressively add more materials to help with individual readings, more ways for members to collaborate and build up a body of knowledge, and more ways for members to connect with one another beyond the online forum. After the class comes to an end, class members will be invited to stay on for this new service (free until 2009), and help steer its development.
I have 7 class members who read this before signing up. I'd forgotten exactly how much I'd committed myself to. Eek.

(*Interlude for complete panic*)

Hm... thinks... what I've promised sounds like the smaller version, apart from the 'progressively adding more materials' part. I can set up the small version (that won't be too hard), and talk just to those 7 people about exactly what they'd like by way of extra materials/ calls/ support for the rest of the year. Perhaps I haven't actually committed myself to spending the next 6 months creating a 'big' version that I already know isn't wanted.

(*Breathing again*)

Anyway... just to explain that when I look at this poll and go ahead and start setting these things up anyway, it's not because I'm ignoring you. It's because the basic level, at least, is already promised. The poll still helps me decide how much to include in that, and how much effort to put into promoting it.

[trojan]

Puzzled by the focus on members being able to connect up more outside the forum -whenever thats been tried before its kind of flopped hasn't it ? I recall a chatroom that remained unoccupied - live chats/meetings that didn't seem to work too well so weren't repeated. Still if thats what people say they want.....:confused:

[hilary]

Indeed. And if it isn't, then no need to set it up.

[maremaria]

Small paid membership

Meeting a desire for more and better communication and co-operation with other members.

Could include - according to demand -


private forum/s only visible to members
live phone/ webinar events
a wiki (to gather our interpretations, methods etc in a more useful, accessible way)
more private messaging and email-to-member privileges
Higher price if I make a commitment to show up for the events and in the forum, less if I don't.

...

1. I’m not sure how I could be benefit from it.
2. a. With all this free softwares (msn, skype) which is the additional value of
t he live phone product ?
b. Webinar sounds interesting as an idea but who, when, how what might make me say yes or no
3. a wiki : might be useful.
4. Till now I found my pm box’s capacity satisfying, so no need for extra.


For all the above I haven’t vote because there is not an option that fits to my answer. (Any second best answer I believe that wouldn’t be useful to you as an valid information.) That means that I wouldn’t mind in a way to contribute but this offer as you describe it is something that I’m not interest in it.

Maria

[hilary]

1. Some people are upset by the possibility of Google finding their posts. Others aren't. :)
2. No especial value to phone calls, maybe some to webinars (if - if! - technology allows us to communicate more as if we were in the same room), but perhaps some value to having some help making these things happen. Or perhaps not. As Trojan says, there hasn't been a big demand for such things before. (And there's a whole other flop you don't even know about, Trojan.)
3. I think so, too.
4. Ah, but read above... I'm thinking of reducing the pm capacity for free members. (Insert evil capitalist laughter here.)

I'll keep thinking up suggestions to offer you, and better questions to ask...

[maremaria]

Thanks for clarifying :)

I liked Rosadas idea. It says something about "voluntary" and "incentives"
Maybe the "donate" idea is not wrong just for some reasons t doesn't work .

If i think of something else , I'll come back.

something else. I think there is another "poll " that worth noticing. Its all the threads you post and the contribution of the member. This shows that people care about this place.

[meng]

Another and simpler model looks this way:

The Buy Pie is cut into 3 slices

Those who will buy
Those who won't buy
Those who would buy if given the right reason


Now the job becomes determining, even approximately, the % which best fits your current Buy Pie, and defining that ever important right reason. From there you can establish goals accordingly.

There's only two ways to increase: 1) increase market share 2) increase market. Whoever said you can sell the need is correct. As are you, when you say your goal is to fill the need that is already there. Those are two ways to increase.

[trojan]

A 'big' version would include everything from the 'small' version, but would also come with lots of my personal time for readings, or calls/ classes, and could also come with lots of extra information. (I'm thinking of information/ interpretive suggestions on each hexagram, for instance, supplied in various different media so you could take your reading with you to listen to during the commute...) And depending on how much time I contributed, it might cost between $20-$40/month.
.

(I don't even know what a 'wiki' is - something to do with wikepedia i presume)

Hmm re the other flop i don't know about :mischief: I thought last time you tried audio material it flopped big time and you wasted lots of your time - so is there any reason to think it will work now ? The way is see it I wouldn't want to buy something i listen to once and never again - its not like music, once or twice is enough. But like before if people say they want it....but what if they say they want it now but don't buy it when it happens.

Sorry to be the voice of pessimism

[hilary]

There's only two ways to increase: 1) increase market share 2) increase market. Whoever said you can sell the needhttp://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/images/misc/progress.gif is correct. As are you, when you say your goal is to fill the need that is already there. Those are two ways to increase.
I'm thinking there are two ways I could go: concentrate on people here, or concentrate on reaching out beyond the site. Not mutually exclusive, of course, but it's important to know which is the best use of time in terms of selling more things.

I think selling the need (or manufacturing the need) is infinitely harder than meeting one people already know they have. Wouldn't you agree?

Trojan - the live meetings were OK, the recordings of them are more or less a flop, and an attempt to bring people together to discuss readings every week (all free, with assorted gifts along the way) was a really impressive flop. But the I Ching course with audio does better than it did without, and I do hear from people who are using the audio - burning it to mp3 players, listening repeatedly in the car, etc. Nightingale Conant do OK out of audio, too. ;)

[meng]

I'm thinking there are two ways I could go: concentrate on people here, or concentrate on reaching out beyond the site. Not mutually exclusive, of course, but it's important to know which is the best use of time in terms of selling more things.

I think selling the need (or manufacturing the need) is infinitely harder than meeting one people already know they have. Wouldn't you agree?



I agree that creating a market is much harder than gaining share of the existing market, of course. However, to ignore the opportunity for increasing the market is really sad, especially if you happen to be the best at what you do. Think of what ole Tom Edison did for light bulb shares!

Inside and outside is too narrow, too confined to the box.

The categories are not mutually exclusive, true, in that they are in constant flux. For that reason, a marketing plan which breaks down goals according to the Buy Pie, do so on a monthly/quarterly goal basis. It pulls together individual goals, and sparks ways to address each, rather than just "trying to do the best we can" approach.

[maremaria]

I think selling the need (or manufacturing the need) is infinitely harder than meeting one people already know they have. Wouldn't you agree?



Exceed customer's expactation is something that people appreciate. think before the customer for the customer. Discover hidden needs or Create new its not easy but it works to make a difference.Some companies focus on innovation, some others follow. Both can be succesful or not. Its a matter of decision. Focusing on what they are good are is vital

[trojan]

I'm thinking there are two ways I could go: concentrate on people here, or concentrate on reaching out beyond the site. Not mutually exclusive, of course, but it's important to know which is the best use of time in terms of selling more things.

;)


You must have asked the Yi for guidance on this ? Afterall you are in this together aren't you.

[maremaria]

something more about needs.
Discovering a need is not always about something genius. Let me share a example. A company here is producing bread for making toast. A people in the company noticed something very common. That many people don’t like the outside hard part of the slice and little children cannot eat it. So they start selling bread slices without the outside part ( sorry don’t remember the word). Their market share was increased tremendously. They didn’t discover the wheel. They just noticed their consumers’ habits.

Post it notes. A product that was made by a mistake. They were trying to produce clue. Wrong proportions , the clue was a disaster. It didn’t stick.

[hilary]

Ah - and that really is the best thing since sliced bread! And probably not something any consumers would have thought to suggest. Encouraging example, thank you.

Yes - inside and outside, and ideally finding things to do that benefit both. And yes, I've talked with Yi. I would say 'of course' I have, but in fact in the past I've had this stupid tendency to get ideas in my head that limited the scope of my questioning, so I left whole swathes of my decision-making unexamined. Twerp. But all I'm doing here is Yi-driven, from the very idea that I need to start this intensive drive for feedback, through the decision to focus here, the way I'm going about it - everything. Of course I'm also doing the 'learning from readings with hindsight' thing pretty consistently.

Readings that led me 'in house'... first, in slightly frantic need of reassurance: if I do all I can, follow advice and work well, what are my chances? 9.2.3.5 to 27. Looking at line 5 I guessed my 'neighbours' would be found mostly outside the ICC, but asked a pair of questions to test the assumption.
'What contribution from "cultivating" the membership?'
Answer: 9.5. (You ever get the impression Yi has put you in remedial class?)
'And what benefit or effect can I expect from cultivating relationships outside the ICC, both marketing and seeking alliances?'
29.2.

So here I am.

[ben_s]

Trojan, Wiki means a web page that anyone can edit, or that any registered user can edit. The page includes an "edit this page" button that loads an edit box, similar to the place where we type in our forum posts, but with the page loaded in. The editor typically includes tools to make it easy to insert links and add basic formatting. It can be a good tool for people who respect each other to build a shared document.

[hilary]

Thanks, Ben. Exactly. It can also be used to create something interlinked, clearly structured and easy to navigate. The forums are full of gems of insight, but even with Ewald's search, it takes a lot of 'trawling' to find them.

[trojan]

Trojan, Wiki means a web page that anyone can edit, or that any registered user can edit. The page includes an "edit this page" button that loads an edit box, similar to the place where we type in our forum posts, but with the page loaded in. The editor typically includes tools to make it easy to insert links and add basic formatting. It can be a good tool for people who respect each other to build a shared document.

Its very kind of people to explain things to me like the value of the dollar and what 'wiki' means - i feel like an elderly aunt who can't quite keep up with modern world :rofl:
Hmm and like an elderly person i never felt the need for such a facility like wiki before so i see no need for it now - a hopeless customer
- maybe Yi products for the older diviner - very large coins or something - and I'm not even that old

But thanks Ben, much appreciated

[maremaria]

....Wiki means a web page that anyone can edit, or that any registered user can edit. The page includes an "edit this page" button that loads an edit box, similar to the place where we type in our forum posts, but with the page loaded in. The editor typically includes tools to make it easy to insert links and add basic formatting. It can be a good tool for people who respect each other to build a shared document.


this is something worth paying just to see it happen. ;)

time 10:10: 01 : the arrow is lost
time 10:10:50 : the arrow is not lost.
time 10:11: 15 : the arrow is lost
time 10:11:35 : the arrow is not lost.

:duh:

Sorry but couldn't resist to the tempation.:D

[hilary]

:rofl:

[kazza]

I agree and disagree with some of the comments. Let me see if I can sort them out:

- I disagree that one wants to find the need, then create a service/product. While this may be a sure bet for having people Buy, it can sap the passion and energy out of the provider. I have a business that provides a service no one particularly thinks they need, but when I explain via my marketing (done like any other independent marketer) how it can indeed feel the larger needs they have, people come. And my business is healthy.

So I think it's more about creating something you feel energized and impassioned about and showing how that meets the needs of people interested in divination/the Yi/transformation. A bit of each approach as it were, without losing what I could feel in your description of the bigger package. Many "transformational" businesses go this direction and do just fine. ;-)

I wonder if this is the right crowd to ask? Many folks here are used to the free version and seem quite "expert" in the Yi. Are the folks in the current classes mostly drawn from folks currently actively participating in the forums or are they "fresh blood"? (What a horrible metaphor -- sorry...)

My initial thoughts/reactions to this discussion anyway.

I did vote ;-)

[hilary]

I think there's a middle way here. Not 'define the box and I'll fit into it for you' - not that lots of people don't make lots of money very systematically in exactly that way, but it doesn't interest me. The big objective with that kind of approach is to get away from work asap, so as to do something meaningful instead.

But also not, 'Here's what inspires me, here's what you're getting, and here's why you ought to like it.'

So I think it's more about creating something you feel energized and impassioned about and showing how that meets the needs of people interested in divination/the Yi/transformation.
I almost agree. I think it's about creating something I feel energised and impassioned about and that meets the needs of people interested in divination/the Yi/ transformation. And I think there's a need for a conversation to create the big magic purple 'and'.

[fkegan]

Hi Hilary,

I notice you have made no comment upon your resulting hexagram in 9>>27. I notice because your every remark and comment focuses only upon the objective, external aspect of your Quest for IC Clarity. It is all about the crust and not about the soft inside of the loaf.

There remains a strong implication of a need to at least peek inside...What is it YOU are hungering for and how do you want it fed?

Hex 27 is a puzzle and many of its lines are just nasty, but it is a valuable bit of the Changes. Hex 27.1 in Wilhelm is just a drag, but it corresponds to the Sabian Symbol for a life-saving diagnosis by X-Ray machine (new, high tech magic in 1923 when the Symbols were born). Why does the Prince let go of his Magic Tortoise? Perhaps he is not feeling well.

It is your personal crisis which appears to be highlighted. The response to your various very objective and outer-directed threads and polls is that the ICC community cares and attends and seeks only guidance as to how exactly to manifest our support and affection for you whatever you would like. However, those hex 27 issues are not for external poking.

Folks here are your hex 7, the groundwater stored, the People's Army in reserve. But armies don't make policy or determine final goals--they just offer their all with trust in their commanders. It is the Commander-In-Chief who has the obligation to question and know what is the policy worthy of the entire Realm.

Frank

[hilary]

I think the soft inside is evident in what I've written lately, and, more to the point, in what I've been doing for the past 8 years.

27 isn't so much of a puzzle. In a reading about reaching a financial goal - or a goal that's somewhat clumsily expressed in financial terms, anyway - it talks directly about those needs. It also encourages me to See the real needs that are driving this - which aren't material ones, as you know. They're the old familiar desires: to be of service, to be needed, to have people tell me and show me I'm being useful. These have been huge motivations for me since I was about 4.

My most recent, relevant reading was 'What now?' (Meaning, what now I've opened the floodgates, started the conversation...) I received 59 again, changing this time at 1 and 6 as well as 5. Looking at line 6 tells me I shouldn't get too far into this discussion. It feels to me as if I've exposed those soft innards, and now they're the object of 'external poking' from people saying, 'No, these emotions aren't real enough! This calling is fake!' And this triggers all kinds of reactions in me which I am not going to get into here, as they really, really do not lead anywhere constructive. So this is me leaving, going far away, and getting out of that discussion.

Your picture of the people here as army is sweet in a way, but, you know, it really doesn't work like that. If it did, everyone would be buying all I have to offer, and then buying some more to give to their friends for birthdays and Christmas. They don't - not because they don't know it would make me happy, or because I haven't issued clear enough 'orders' to do so, but because they don't want to, because they don't want these things. And this is exactly as it should be.

Class in 4 minutes - have to go.

[meng]

Here's a something that a guitar forum is doing to help meet expenses. Not quite in the box of this forum, but it may stimulate an idea or two which fits. Books, tapes, lessons, etc?

http://www.thegearpage.net/new_index.php?pageid=TGP%20Fundraiser%20Raffle

[fkegan]

Hi Hilary,

'What now?' (Meaning, what now I've opened the floodgates, started the conversation...) I received 59 again, changing this time at 1 and 6 as well as 5.

Hexagram 59.1,5,6 >> hex 19 Solution >>Coming Together as the overall organizational plan and transition to the next express and exhaust themselves while the roots from the prior fills in. The structure remains focus, the entire timing becomes the powerful process going forward of hex 19--transition and structure barrel ahead into the open space of the moment.

Armies aren't all that sweet, particularly reserves available for ancient Chinese draft into service. More importantly, they don't have simple intents like making their commanders day through their choices or purchase preferences. They simply are there, willing to obey orders as given and available to suffer the consequences of the orders they are given.

It is the commander who needs to consider what is good policy and what direction and campaigns make sense for the whole of the realm in this season.

It feels to me as if I've exposed those soft innards, and now they're the object of 'external poking' from people saying, 'No, these emotions aren't real enough! This calling is fake!' And this triggers all kinds of reactions in me which I am not going to get into here, as they really, really do not lead anywhere constructive. So this is me leaving, going far away, and getting out of that discussion.

:ouch: I don't see anyone meaning to poke your exposed innards or doubting the reality of your lifelong calling. Something is getting lost in translation but that is your issue to pursue in most private relationship to the Yi, not to us old war horses making sense only occasionally in special contexts.

As a male, I can only cringe when a woman states--what I mean is so evident in what I have said or done before and if you don't understand you just...

It never works out well for anyone at that point... never... and being blamed for anyone else's inner pain is never any fun either. Each of us needs to poke our own soft innards in our own private way. Objective results are just weird all around...

When I ask the Yi what is needed now in this situation: I get... hexagram 14.5,6 >> 43 or True Gold (goaled)>> Overwhelming by the transition to the Next expressing and exhausting itself filling in the overall organization producing the timing of hex 43. By Gia-Fu's translation:

GREAT AFFLUENCE. PRIME BLISS.great affluence gentle gains the grand central position and above and below respond. It is said great affluence. It's virtue is tough and strong and elegant and brilliant. Responding to heaven with timely action therefore prime bliss.

Image:Fire above heaven Great Affluence. The master rids himself of evil and emulates goodness, follows heaven in tune with destiny.

Good luck with your inner processing. Peace.

Frank

[hilary]

Don't worry - no blaming is happening, hence all the 'I' statements (:rolleyes:) about personal triggers etc. Perhaps we should both blame the nasty horrid people who picked on me when I was 8? :hissy:

Meng, the raffle idea is very neat. (And the first prize, while I have no clue what it does, looks somehow fitting.) It wouldn't be hard to fill with yarrow stalks, beads, coins, books, audio, etc... . The only issue would be legality... I think there are legal/ licensing hoops to jump through before one can do such a thing. That doesn't stop me from finding 'sponsors' in other ways, though. Another good one for the idea-cornucopia.

[meng]

I don't know what the rules for raffles and lotteries are outside the US, but here there's no restrictions on them, other than those guidelines which are imposed by the FCC, and that only involves radio and TV.

[fkegan]

Don't worry - no blaming is happening, hence all the 'I' statements (:rolleyes:) about personal triggers etc. Perhaps we should both blame the nasty horrid people who picked on me when I was 8? :hissy:

Hi Hilary,
The nasty horrid people who picked upon us all when we were 8 come from Central Casting in Hollywood and they grow up to have their kids picked on in Karmic revenge...

I remain unclear what your goal for IC Clarity is and how you will know it has been achieved. Do you want to generate a cash income or feel your being needed and appreciated for your service or both as an integrated package? A raffle is a hard way to achieve more than cash result...though marketed as a matter of show me you truly care buy at least X tickets I understand well--it was standard operating procedure for city workers in Chicago. A friend of mine managed a great promotion by buying a ticket when he wasn't on the schedule to HAVE to buy one.

Folks will accept any premise that you state clearly and present openly. I wanted to flag the fellow asking the date and time based oracle technique to buy some training and coaching from you, though I didn't find a simple click for him get help, just told him to click Reading tab and contact you. [http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=5558&page=6] perhaps this fellow's thread can be an exemplar of how you wish to promote your products and services. A rather hex 4 situation, but if put upon the right path could be both a satisfying personal experience and profitable as well.

Frank

[hilary]

I remain unclear what your goal for IC Clarity is and how you will know it has been achieved. Do you want to generate a cash income or feel your being needed and appreciated for your service or both as an integrated package?
Both, as an integrated package. :)
In other words, not a cash income just from doing any old thing to make money, nor yet from 'fundraising' efforts as if I were running a charity. So I'm not gripped by the raffle idea per se, or not as a regular thing... but there are other ways to get the benefits of that kind of partnership.

By the way, I don't know/use the Plum Blossom technique at all (the hexagram 4 situation is all on my side ;) ), so the forum is the best place for that poster to find information.

[fkegan]

Both, as an integrated package. :)
In other words, not a cash income just from doing any old thing to make money, nor yet from 'fundraising' efforts as if I were running a charity. So I'm not gripped by the raffle idea per se, or not as a regular thing... but there are other ways to get the benefits of that kind of partnership.

By the way, I don't know/use the Plum Blossom technique at all (the hexagram 4 situation is all on my side ;) ), so the forum is the best place for that poster to find information.

Hi Hilary,
I believe you could move forward on your goals by going through what you have already here on Clarity and think about who would be looking for those products and services and coming up with a way to note or highlight that. Sort of a tour of the site for those looking for stuff and wondering where they can find their Yi needs met.

As to the Plum Blossom poster, he doesn't use that technique either, Luis explained it fully and he still couldn't do it. Then he mentioned he was asking about that technique since he didn't know how to toss coins or interpret moving lines. I went quickly over the basic oracle technique and then pointed him to Wilhelm and to you as a learning coach about the Yi oracle. Clearly, he has issues, but if he can at least know that about himself he could be a paying customer and who knows out the other side he might be a valuable success story.

Or in the alternative what sort of customer are you looking for?

Frank

[dobro]

Small paid membership

Meeting a desire for more and better communication and co-operation with other members.

Could include - according to demand -


private forum/s only visible to members
live phone/ webinar events
a wiki (to gather our interpretations, methods etc in a more useful, accessible way)
more private messaging and email-to-member privileges
Higher price if I make a commitment to show up for the events and in the forum, less if I don't.

I'd probably withdraw some privileges from the free membership to make the difference more worthwhile. Not sure what. Access to the complete archives, maybe? The right to include a link in your signature? To send direct email to members?


On other online forums I frequent, a livetime private forum and *way* more private messaging than Clarity nows offers is already part of the free package. Conclusion: having to pay for this would make the place rather exclusive. As for withdrawing privileges to make a paid option more attractive to members: other internet sites I frequent already allow complete access to archives, the right to include a link in one's signature, and a private email account. So if you start charging people for what other sites offer for free, people are going to draw some inevitable conclusions.

You know, I'm part of a large and thriving online community of homerecording musicians who are making music that is pretty much every bit as good sometimes as the commercially available stuff. There's an artistic revolution going on - good recorded music is out of the hands of the recording companies and is in the hands of the people. But the people aren't making money out of it. Although a few of us have made a few bucks here and there flogging our wares online, nobody's making any real money out of it. For one thing, people these days spend way more money on their ipods than they do for the music itself, and a lot of people get their music for free (file-sharing's illegal, but hey...) so they don't want to pay for it. So if I say: "Here's my music - send me some money and you can have it," pretty much everybody except friends and family are simply going to click away from my site. Why pay when you can get listenable stuff for free elsewhere? Most of my recording buddies are offering their music for free these days, simply because they want their stuff to get heard. Nobody at the amateur level (trust me on this - nobody) has figured out a reliable way to make decent money out of internet music. Wanna know how to make money out of your music? Answer: play live music and sell CDs out of a suitcase. You won't get rich, but it's a living. As for the internet...nah. And my point? Well, if it's difficult to make money out of internet MUSIC (everybody loves music, right?) then it's going to be really, really difficult to make money out of something like the Yi.

It's a nice site you've put together here, Hilary, and I like it. You also seem to be in process of educating people into the concept that they should pay for it. Why not just put it to the test for a trial period and see if it works? Charge for access to everything but the lonely hearts forum, and see if people are willing to ante up 10 or 20 pounds a year for membership. Continue to charge for special things like consultations and courses. I'd be interested to see what happens.

[hilary]

Hm - I can see that reiterating that I won't start charging for the forums, and adding in the small print that I'll just start charging for the, um, features of the forums, could seem a bit mingy. Though there are plenty of forums out there giving paying members access to more forums, the right to a link in their signature, and such-likes.

It's a nice site you've put together here, Hilary, and I like it.Thanks. Me, too. :)
You also seem to be in process of educating people into the concept that they should pay for it.

Excuse me a moment...

:hissy:


... thank you. Feeling much better now.

No, I'm not. That's why I'm asking about what additional services I can provide that people would consider worth buying, and why I keep on (and on) saying I don't want to charge for the forum.

[dobro]

Ah okay, sorry I misperceived your motivation. :blush:

[fkegan]

That's why I'm asking about what additional services I can provide that people would consider worth buying, and why I keep on (and on) saying I don't want to charge for the forum.

Hi Hilary,

Folks have been trying to answer the questions you ask though as you note they don't have much clarity about them. At some point it becomes easier to think about how to explore the questions you have, think about how to get them into a form where others can make meaningful answers to your questions.

To say that you are absolutely clear of your questions and it is only what answers others have for you is fine---but, mere mortals will fail to come up with the answers you seek.
To get the answers you need from folks, you have to engage them in a conversation where both their answers and your questions get refined and exchanged and answered over and over again.

I have been so gauche and lawyer-trained as to actually dive into these absolutely clear questions with folks. All I can say with clarity is that the questions aren't ultimately so clear, at least not objectively and the resistance to reviewing the questions turns out to be far more important than anything else.

In the alternative. I have been trying to steer folks new to these threads into your paid products and services. I am not clear what you offer or how folks get arrangements made or how to promote your paid stuff to folks who barely know how to spell I Ching let alone have any clear notion of what they need or how you might help them to greater insights.

Cash value in a free market reality is actually a matter of relationship. Buyer demand, seller supply, marketing information and persuasion are all subjective relationships masquerading as objective values. All the things you speak of seeking are relationship issues. But putting relationship issues upon a sound, objective, businesslike paid basis takes a lot of objective clarity and mutual agreement.

Perhaps the discussion needs to refocus in more immediate and concrete terms. What makes you feel appreciated? Needed? Successful in helping another to attain learning or insight? And on the other side--what makes you feel you need to be paid to put up with?

Questions and answers evolve together, especially when one person is totally clear in their own mind and many others are unable to understand though trying hard.

Frank

[hilary]

At some point it becomes easier to think about how to explore the questions you have, think about how to get them into a form where others can make meaningful answers to your questions.
Absolutely right. I did know when I started that 'what would you like to buy?' is a well-nigh impossible question to answer when given without suggestions. I thought I'd ask it anyway, with the gates wide open - and the results are very helpful, both from those people who answered it, and from those who answered something else in what I wrote.

There are less Dispersed ways of having this conversation, though, and that's undoubtedly where we need to go from here.

[fallada]

Dear Hilary,

A paid membership would be fair . I just voted.
Would love a wiki.
Would love to hexagram-search in the old - I mean really old - archives.

F.

[merrymusk]

Hello Hilary,
I have just quickly read through this thread.
I agree that a paid membership would be fair. I do not think it should be too high.

There should never be free downloads here, a small charge is sensible.

I also suggest that you find several people who would be willing to mentor the forums, and some of the particular areas which tend to stand sort of alone. Difficult but possible.
That way you would find some time to extend your expertise by holding seminars, something on the true self help line, and charging a good fee for say two hours of lecturing. There would be a good market for this surely. This sort of thing could help to promote the onlineclarity site even more. There would be enormous satisfaction in promoting the Yi itself into the everyday sphere.
I feel strongly that the Yi could be of use to many more people, but they need to know about it !!!

The other thing that should be cemented in firmly is that you personally should never never do a reading free !
Each reading you do is a valuable tool to the querant.
Each reading one does for oneself is truly a valuable tool and does not come without time and thought.

Another thought I have as a newcomer to this wonderful site is....... that you have already written "your book" here on the site and over a few months if you can free up your time a bit, and apply a good bit of work as well of course, you could get it published in book form, either as an eBook or in the "oldfashioned way"
Cheers and Best wishes
Merrymusk

[hilary]

Hi Merrymusk!

Thank you :) Have you found your way to the survey about this? (It's in my signature.) That's the 'less dispersed' stage of the conversation.

I'm not going to charge for anything that's currently free - that leaves a bad taste in the mouth. But several people have said they'd pay something for the forum as is. So the idea is to provide a core of the forum that works better in various ways - easier for people to connect, work together on shared projects, study things in-depth, and so on. Also throwing in some of my own work to get the ball rolling.

You're completely right, I do need to reach out to people who don't know about the Yijing at all. And at some point I need to get over my complete aversion to having lots of people looking at me! (Unless I can take a sofa with me to hide behind?)