strange relationship phase

[magus007]

Hello everyone I have a strange story for you... At the beginning of the year a relationship I have had with someone turned from being a friendship into something different. She was in a partnership with someone else and keen to leave. I was married. The relationship was based on a spiritual connection and was very strong. In the end I saw that my life would be better with her. I left my wife to be with her and her child. I was away from her for two weeks ending my marriage and when I came back something had changed. Her mother apparently had said she was made for leaving her relationship with her partner for me. Since she had not had the chance to move out of the house with her partner she stayed there. Her excuse was that her daughter had some exams she needed to sit. Anyway I arrived divorced and ready to be with her. She however was shut down and not going to develop our relationship (at least until the exams were finished). However it became fairly clear that she was not going to move either. She got into a state. She lied to her partner about what we had (made it out to be an internet thing which it wasnt). She remained in separate bedrooms from her partner and refused to commit to either of us. She sees me most days although we do not have a physical relationship any more.
They have just started couple counselling which she hopes will help her make up her mind. Her partner seems to be in denial. He hopes that they will get back together but is ignoring the the reasons they feel apart. She is emotional, creative and magical he is the opposite. His idea of an argument is to ignore her and walk out of the room.

This is the iching reading I did for her and her partner. The question was what will happen to M and M's relationship.

Hex 38 with the second line changing
Opposition
One meets his lord in a narrow street no blame!
"As a result of misunderstandings it has become impossible for people who by nature belong together to meet in the correct way. This being so an accidental meeting under informal circumstances may serve the purpose provided there is an inner affinity between them."

It changes to Hex 21 Biting through

When I asked about mine and her relationship... I got

Hex 4
Youthful Folly with the second from the top line changing
An inexperienced person who seeks instruction is on the right path.

This changes to Hex 24 'Returning

I am incredibly biased in this so I will try my own reading and see what people think.

In Mand M's relationship there is a contradiction of world views that really cannot sustain itself. She is meeting with me in secret in a way of keeping her spiritual connection until things sort themselves out. However soon that will change as things have to be dealt with and reform in her existing relationship has to take place. Unfortunately it is not clear if this reform is her leaving him, him chucking her out or they getting back together and me being dumped.

In mine and her relationship we do not know what to do as there has never been a relationship likes this for either of us, and we have no rules to follow. However soon the dark times will pass, the situation will be resolves and we will be able to return to our spiritual and romantic paths.

Any ideas anyone?

[ben_s]

I'm speechless about what a mess you have. Fortunately, my fingers still work even when my mouth stops.

My only I Ching question is: How about your asking a question directly related to you, and what is in your power to do, rather than about other people. For example,
Is there something about the way I make decisions that led to this mess?
What is the most honorable thing for me to do now?
What is the underlying truth about what feels like a spiritual connection?
etc

I'm surprised you're not also working with a counselor to figure out what you want, and what is realistic for you to get.

we have no rules to follow

If that's the case, then I Ching isn't really for you, is it? This particular oracle is mostly about The Right Thing To Do, and it's usually enthusiastic about traditional social structures for romance and loyalty.

I am incredibly biased in this

I find that easy to believe.

[magus007]

I am certain about what I want and what I get out of this eventually. I see this as a phase in both of our developments. Realistically I am not sure if I should walk away, however I have a strong feeling that everything will be all right in the end.
I have done various IChing readings to work out my own feelings etc. These I am happy with as they have clarified my situation quite well.
These I note are the subject of many other people's readings on this group. I notice that rather than commenting on the IChing reading (which is what I asked) you feel the need to tell me that I need counselling. You also make the sweeping statement that the IChing is all about loyalty etc and therefore this path is not for me. Yet if you read what I said you would see that the situation from my perspective is all about loyalty and love in adversity. In short I gave a background so that the hexs could be understood. You instead have felt the need to judge me and my actions. I can get that sort of advice by asking a taxi driver or anyone who claims "street sense".
What I was looking for was counsel from the oracle about an unusual circumstance.
I find it strange that other people on this group have had help in similar circumstances and yet my thread is ignored and when it gets attention it is treated like this.

[philish]

May I suggest that the story you presented and your response to ben hasn't been received well because maybe, uh, the story IS a bit of shock for a group who hasn't lived with you through all the changes and revelations in your life. We're just presented with a very determined person in a tremendously challenging situation that doesn't look so good--spiritually or otherwise--from our vantage point.

With that caveat aside, I'll offer my two cents of free advice.

If you have done several reading to work out your feelings, and the IC is STILL telling you 4.2, then perhaps you both need to step beyond the IC for counsel. At the very least. The larger theme of the hex is about teachability, I think, and I relate it to the Fool in the Tarot. Someone on another thread here once mentioned Jung's reaction when he once got the 4; he felt he'd gotten rebuked and humbled.

So the way I read this is: Are you willing to be as humble? Are you teachable in this situation? You say you are certain about what you want and what you think you going to get out of "this," but are you SO certain that you are unteachable? You have show yourself to be a person of action, but can you rethink your vision here? Are you willing to? 24 seems to say (in this context) "regroup and rethink".

I'll leave the other inquiry to someone else.

Good luck to you!

[philish]

PS--It's doubtful you are being ignored on this list. I haven't been here long, but I've discovered that many, many people will read your posting before someone replies. It doesn't mean that the list is ignoring you, but rather that they might be thinking about the question and have not yet formed an answer. I, The Fool, have, however, jumped right into the fray.

[trojan]

At least Ben took the time to understand the plot. I can't make head nor tail of it. I've no idea who did what to who, when or why and have already gotten a headache trying so I give up which is probably just as well.

Thats not a request for further elucidation BTW I'm just pointing out you weren't ignored -

[magus007]

:-) It is involved... I am a writer and it does have the makings of a good story...
It is not really THAT turgid either. My background is in magic and writing. When I talk about spiritual relationship I mean something like a polarity partner -- but it means a bit more than that. Now I have never had one before, but the few months before the big commitment and subsequent estrangement were one of the most productive of both our lives.
I take your point about the Youthful Folly hex and about getting advice. But I have always had a problem about finding people to talk things through with. In most situations it ends up with me being the teacher... when I need someone to talk too it is usually about things that are difficult to explain. For example when I say vision, I mean 'a vision' not just an idea that I am working towards. Ironically the vision allows for all this current mess by virtue of the fact it just didn't mention it.
But when I said there were no rules to cover this situation I meant that as an interpretation of Youthful Folly. I sort of see it like the Tarot card the Fool. It seems that the subject I am dealing with I have no experience in and am therefore unable to find a solution. Finding a teacher who is an expert in this sort of situation is a bit tricker :-)
The other point is how long do we hold onto the first hex? The indications are that this is changing into something different. Youthful Folly might be because I keep asking variations of similar questions.. however the IChing seems to be suggesting that things are about to change. When do we look at that change as being important and kicking in? How do we see returning in this situation? I notice you suggested that it is go back and have another think about it, which is interesting. Is is also possible to see all this in a positive way? Or because the situation is so strange that we have to read it always in a doom and gloom way <bg>
Thanks for your help..

[maremaria]

Hi,
Are you sure that 4.5 changes to 24 ?

[magus007]

Thanks for that. You were completely right I do not believe I made that mistake!!! The initial hex was 42 and not 4! It is still line five and still results in 24.

This makes for a slightly more confusing reading...
If in truth you have a kind heart ask not
Supreme Good Fortune
Truly kindness will be recognised as your virtue

This then changes to Return.

This makes a bit of a difference :-) It sort of implies that by being supportive and kind it will create the situation for a return?

Based on what people have been saying here I asked the question -- "What is it that I am not listening to in this situation."

I got 49 l 5 changing to 55

Revolution (If you look around you will find that your actions are supported by others... you are in the correct position to bring change.... trust your intuition) changing to abundance.

What I have not seen is that this situation is a revolution -- part of a some dramatic change. This revolution is reaching its height and will bring about better times.... or am I still barking :-)

[maremaria]

Thanks for that. You were completely right I do not believe I made that mistake!!! The initial hex was 42 and not 4! It is still line five and still results in 24.

This makes for a slightly more confusing reading...
)

and now I'll confuse you a little more. 42.5 changes to 27 ;)

Maybe it has to do with the "no rules to follow" comment of yours

[maremaria]

This particular oracle is mostly about The Right Thing To Do, and it's usually enthusiastic about traditional social structures for romance and loyalty.

.

Hmm, I thought Yi was not a rulebook and that don’t stress on which is the “The Right Thing To Do” . The way I see it is “if you do A you get this and if you do B you get that” and then we, using the given right of “free will” , choose between A and B .

[meng]

Hmm, I thought Yi was not a rulebook and that don’t stress on which is the “The Right Thing To Do” . The way I see it is “if you do A you get this and if you do B you get that” and then we, using the given right of “free will” , choose between A and B .

:bows:

It's like the difference between 16.3 and 19.2.

[maremaria]

which is ?

[meng]

16.3 looks to be told what is the right thing, and misses the opportune time to act.

19.2 works jointly to discern what is best in the given moment, and acts in accord with the time.

[rosada]

Dear magus,

Although you can plug yourself into the situation described in line 38.2 > 21, I think you should try interpreting it as referring strictly to the question you asked, that is, "What will happen to M and M's relationship?" In that case it seems to be suggesting that while they have not been doing well as a traditional couple, perhaps now that they are sleeping in separate bedrooms there is the possibility of their bumping into each other in the hallway and sharing a a pleasant word. As 38.2 evolves to 21. Biting Through, these unplanned meetings may lead to being able to finally talk about their issues and get some misunderstandings resolved.

rosada

[maremaria]

aha, 16.3 was not clear here
thanks

[magus007]

So although it is has gone through this phase of withdrawal, by being kind etc it nourishes her during a difficult period of change.
While she is finding that her life with her ex is providing her with contradiction from which she finds the spiritual balance by meeting often with me (38l2). This will result in her being able to bite through the obstruction.
The difficulty I have with plugging him into the scene is that the line talks about him being the Great Man she bumps into. Nothing that she has said about him indicates him being 'Great' for her or anyone. Most of the time she hold him in contempt. She seems to thing he is ok because he represents stability without her having to make changes... this is in accord with her mother's wishes. However there is that connection between her and me.
I told her not to show up around here if she didn't want to be with me and she has shown up most days. Often ringing me to tell me of her row with him.
However it could be correct in the following way. When she is in that space she finds that nothing has changed and it is 'safe' and she is in control. However, for example, he has told her that if they work this out he wants her to have his baby -- something she is a long way from wanting. One of the reasons that she is worried about him as a potential partner is that he is not that good with her daughter and provides little support sort of babysitting. If she had a child with him her daughter would be marginalised even more.
The bloke is emotionally unable to cope with her, does not listen and has seriously hurt her in the past (which would take much counselling -- something he moans about the price of constantly and they have only had one session). They are going to relate counselling (for what reason is not clear... I suspect it is because it means that she can tell her mother she tried everything, and perhaps give her some clarity).
Either way it is hard for her to see him as 'superior' in this line. Particularly when she is getting her benefit and nourishment from our relationship. Or am I wrong here ?

[rosada]

My translation says, "38.2 One meets his lord in a narrow street. No blame." I would think "lord" could mean husband. You say this man has provided her with some stability so that would put him in some sort of position of being a "lord." I still think the hexagram should be read as commenting on the relationship between the two of them.

Rosada

[ben_s]

Magus,

You started with "a strange story" (your words) about someone "in a state" (your words) who's a liar (your words) and in "a contradiction of world views" (your words) with someone else "in denial" (your words). This is a situation where "there has never been anything like this for either of us." (your words)

How is it unfair to say that a strange state already involving a liar, a contradiction of world views, a denial, a divorce, an unprecedented spiritual change, a counselor, a student, a need for reform, and a dark night of the soul - is anything but a mess?

Did I say it's all your fault? No, I said it's a mess.

You make this mess your very first post, without your having contributed to anyone else's concerns in this community - without any introduction to your perspective on the I Ching, or your perspective on life. And then you're offended that, as someone who has only your words to go on, I call this mess "a mess?"

If it didn't bother you about how messy it was, you'd not have posted for new perspectives, would you?

You come in with a preconceived conclusion - that you know the dark times will pass, and you two will be back together. If I read your post right, you've predetermined that her counseling could not possibly change her mind about the path for both of you. And then you're offended that someone suggests, get some heavy-duty, well qualifiedthird party's help to think this through - including, what if you don't have the power to guarantee the outcome you want?

You have, by your own words, an unprecedented, unusual, complicated relationship issue. And you're offended that I suggest you see a counselor to help you reach clarity? How is that any more offensive, than if you said your car leaked some unusual goo despite your use of duct tape, and I suggested you ask a mechanic's help rather than try to hold it together with more tape?

I can't "see the situation from your perspective" based on one post that doesn't clearly explain your perspective. If I overlooked what you actually wrote, I apologize. But I won't apologize for not hearing what you didn't actually say!

Is it untrue that the I Ching includes many proclamations about the right way to handle life and relationships? Is it untrue that it's an oracle that often examines traditional roles? If this is untrue, than I seriously misunderstand the oracle. Instead of wandering in this wilderness of confusion, I would appreciate your helping me learn about how the oracle actually gives us everything we've already decided has to happen in our lives!

In the months I read this forum before posting, and the time I joined in exploring other people's issues before posting my own requests for help, I noticed something. I noticed that this forum often combines the oracle with people's own opinions and life experience. Didn't you notice that? Do you want to add a new rule: "Only tell me what the Yi says about how I get everything I want, and don't give me any of your own life experience, wisdom, insight, or opinion, good or bad, about anything else?" When do you put that rule into your first post?

By the way, your first post had blank lines between the paragraphs. That is much easier to read than the solid wall of words in your follow-ups.

Anyway, since I can't say how the Yi guarantees you'll get what you've already decided what will happen - and I can't read between the lines to know what to say - and anything else is not good enough - I suppose I should just sit this one out.

[maremaria]

Magus,

With “this’ and “that” we forgot to say to you “WELCOME to Clarity”


Ben, reading your post, and while we are all in a state thinking of how we could make Clarity a better place, maybe it could be useful to make some rules and guidelines for the new members. Such as : which information are necessary in order to give our insight (when we have one) and help to the one asks for it.
For example:
detailed background of the situation
years of experience with Yi,
what kinds of questions are we willing to answer (maybe a approved list),
and about which situations

And of course some practical things about text formatting (size, spaces, color etc). It would be a handy tool for those who are coming for the first time here and reduce beginners anxiety.

If the Yi don’t want a relationship with them (the experienced one can recognize it), or their mental situation needs an psychologist and not Yi or what most important their issue is against the traditional social structures then they shouldn’t not even think to post here.

You seems you have a ready guideline in your mind, that’s why I’m addressing to you.

What do you think ?
:)

[magus007]

My translation says, "38.2 One meets his lord in a narrow street. No blame." I would think "lord" could mean husband. You say this man has provided her with some stability so that would put him in some sort of position of being a "lord." I still think the hexagram should be read as commenting on the relationship between the two of them.

Rosada


I agree with your interpretation on that... if the IChing is taken literally and in context of its times. But this is where I find it all fun because the same line can be taken in several ways. In this situation we have to look at what is happening with them and ask does he represent the 'Lord' here.
One is that they are not married. Two is that he is so passive he could not be seen as a Lord of anything (even his own home). The verse says that person and their lord meet in a 'narrow street'. The implication is that the meeting takes place 'outside' (the home or immediate environment).
My reason for injecting myself into that verse was that if you look at my position though in her life I am her teacher (of spiritual things :-)... I run the group she belongs etc.
She comes around to my house (just around the corner) and we talk stuff through. At the moment she does not talk about anything to her partner nor does he want too so the only processing of her situation comes with the work she does with me.
I use a couple of translations (when I get the hex right :-). There is a "Noddy writes" one from the "I Ching Workbook" and the classic Richard Wilhelm version.
The Tarot Workbook said: "In the midst of opposition and isolation you will find someone who you have an inner affinity. A mutual trust can now develop and dangers can be overcome together. This co-operating can lead to significant accomplishments."
Wilhelm says that One meets his lord in a narrow street. No Blame.
"As a result of misunderstandings it has become impossible for people who by nature belong together to meet in the correct way. This being so an accidental meeting under informal circumstances may serve the purpose provided there is an inner affinity between them."
The above sentence describes what me and her are doing exactly. She comes here and talks through her problems. We do not have a physical relationship because that would cause her problems (it means No Blame). I could argue that they are even accidental because I dont know when she is going to show up (although she does most days at roughly the same time). It does not describe what she and her ex-partner are doing at all. In fact their problems are not so much misunderstandings but out and out betrayal.
This is why I could read it as the opposition that is going on in MandM's relationship is changing due to the processing that she is doing with me. This will bring about change (Biting through)... although in that scenario the change could go either way. However if we look at the reading for my relationship with M we get 42 Increase changing to 27 Nourishing which seems to indicate I am at least happy with the process.

[magus007]

Who is to decide if you need a shrink or if the Yi is not talking to them? From the point of view of a teacher in another tradition that thought scares the willies out of me. Teachers are guides and not judges. If the Yi talks to an idiot it is up to the Yi not some human to stand between them.
In this situation I provided details.. the 'teacher' made a lot of presumptions. Rather than challenge his own, he waded into the student.
Normally such things are ironed out (as they have been in this case). A balance is achieved by going halfway across the river.
I would say rather than bring in frameworks and rules... look for a way where students can get their questions across without being pre-judged. For example in this case he read my statement 'we have no rules here' incorrectly... I meant in the context of the (wrongly allocated) Youthful Folly hex me and M lacked experience in this area... there are no rules for us to follow and we do not know what to do. He saw it as chucking out the rules based on his somewhat judgemental assessment of families and affairs. In fact M left her partner before starting with me and when I was sure she was serious I left my wife. Neither of us have children to our partners.
My point is that people come to the IChing from different angles and different paths and different political ideals. I do not see a requirement for the iChing to be a handbook for a conservative life any more than it is a call for liberal values. Its principles, if they are valid should be universal.
But as a new person to the site I really resent the fact that in a moment of crisis I ask for help interpreting something, not only is that refused, I am told that I should see a counsellor. In short I am insane for allowing myself to get into this mess. If years of working with the iChing made someone lose their compassion, then you are right it certainly is not the path for me (or anyone). If years of working with the iChing mean that you fail to see beyond a conservative structure where new ideas are not allowed to threaten the established order, then you are also right it is not the path for me.
As far as posting is concerned... the idea seems to be that I am supposed to sit around for a long time before posting on something that is valid to me??? I have been through all the archives before posting on this subject in a bid to understand it. It was easier for me to post the story and get it debated. I am not shy about asking questions and I don't see why if a site is going to be valid for helping people, new people should not be able to post what they like.
Maybe a section just for new people that is looked after by two or three moderators who can either help them or get some of the more experienced members. The idea is that new people need to be helped (even if they are a bit mad). If they are totally barking then the moderator can take down the post. However I can assure this group that I am far from mad.

[trojan]

”


Ben, reading your post, and while we are all in a state thinking of how we could make Clarity a better place, maybe it could be useful to make some rules and guidelines for the new members. Such as : which information are necessary in order to give our insight (when we have one) and help to the one asks for it.
For example:
detailed background of the situation
years of experience with Yi,
what kinds of questions are we willing to answer (maybe a approved list),
and about which situations

And of course some practical things about text formatting (size, spaces, color etc). It would be a handy tool for those who are coming for the first time here and reduce beginners anxiety.

If the Yi don’t want a relationship with them (the experienced one can recognize it), or their mental situation needs an psychologist and not Yi or what most important their issue is against the traditional social structures then they shouldn’t not even think to post here.

You seems you have a ready guideline in your mind, that’s why I’m addressing to you.

What do you think ?
:)

With respect if you are going to start that kind of debate Open Place is the place for it isn't it ? I don't mean to be bossy its a suggestion. It always seem to me if a thread is especially addressed to any contentious issues its got a better chance of being discussed/dealt with when its got its own space and it gets worse and more entangled when its mixed up with other issues.

Actually I'm baffled as to what you mean in the underlined sentence. Theres no one on earth who can tell someone else the Yi "doesn't want a relationship with them". Picturing the Yi on a date, saying "no sorry I'm in 6 million relationships already sorry" lol.

[rosada]

Dear Magus,

It is certainly true the I Ching can give answers that seem to refer to things outside the scope of the original question. As you describe your situation, 38.2 does seem to fit your interpretation. Of course, this then leaves your original question unanswered. Perhaps 38.2 could pertain to both your friendship with M and also describe M's relationship with her husband. If that is the case, I still think 38.2 is warning that despite all the misunderstandings in their marriage, when the smoke clears they will find a way to stay together IF there is an inner affinity between them.

R.

[willowfox]

This is the iching reading I did for her and her partner. The question was what will happen to M and M's relationship.

Hex 38 with the second line changing > 21

This says that if she is meant to be with her current partner then she will providing there is something between them to hold on to. But it appears there is not and there is nothing between you and her also. She obviously is either very immature or playing you both for fools, sounds a bit of both to me. She will ditch both of you and eventually find another.

[trojan]

Magus the only clear answer i saw in the whole thing was that I agreed with Rosada when she said she thought 38.2 could mean this couple finding a way to reconnect. Thats one of the main purposes of going to Relate isn't it ?

As for the rest well - if you were an outsider how would you see it.... The facts are as thus (unless i got it wrong)

1. you left your wife in order to be with woman already in relationship with a man
2. after you left she started dithering over whether she wanted you or wanted him
3. so for the time being she stays with him and goes to Relate with him
4. meanwhile she spends alot of time moaning to you about him
5. the result is two men are waiting to find out if she wants the other one or not :eek:
6. and you think this woman goes to relate because her mother wants her to :confused:

Also extremely puzzling is you say they are going to relate to see if he is her potential partner :confused: er I thought he was her partner or how else could they go to Relate

Hmm anyway to an outsider, well to me anyway, it seems you are being taken for a ride here and he does seem the one to have the advantage as he is still with her - and afterall if he is that awful and she is not held hostage why doesn't she just leave him.
I know i don't know the full situation but these seem to be the facts as you presented them and I didn't think it would hurt for you to have anothers perspective - for from my perspective them reconnecting as Rosada (38.2) says is a possibility.


I have got lost regarding what hexes you drew as you didn't seem too sure yourself - but
to an outsider, to me anyway, you believing everything she tells you about him is perhaps a little naive on your part.



Re the disagreement between you and Ben you must appreciate we do not claim to be or want to be 'teachers' here, at least I certainly don't. We are just friends sharing of our own time and being human our opinions come over too sometimes, we aren't automatons. If you want a professional reading, Hilary the owner of this site can give you one for a fee.

Of course friends do learn from one another, but they can't really demand that that friend is professional, non judgemental, totally without bias. Of course if you don't like what someone said you have a right to express it but my point is i don't think we are obligated to act in any particular way in this shared area other than being reasonably polite and truthful.

[magus007]

Magus the only clear answer i saw in the whole thing was that I agreed with Rosada when she said she thought 38.2 could mean this couple finding a way to reconnect. Thats one of the main purposes of going to Relate isn't it ?

Relate does counselling for couples seeking to negotiate ammicable endings too at present their ending would not be amicable.

As for the rest well - if you were an outsider how would you see it.... The facts are as thus (unless i got it wrong)

1. you left your wife in order to be with woman already in relationship with a man

M had left her partnership and was sleeping in the spare room while she found another house. She did that as it became clear that we were becoming an item, but before it had turned into a proper relationship.

2. after you left she started dithering over whether she wanted you or wanted him

No she became fearful about the effect that the change would have on her daughter. Her mother made her feel guilty about that.

3. so for the time being she stays with him and goes to Relate with him

She stays in the same house with him. She spends most of her day with me.

4. meanwhile she spends alot of time moaning to you about him

Yep. They do not talk hardly at all and her anger at him is getting worse. He is working on the basis that if he does not create any rows this will all blow over. Unfortunately they cannot help themselves. When they have a row he just walks off. The most interesting one was the one they had after Relate where he dismissed what she was saying about his poor communication.


5. the result is two men are waiting to find out if she wants the other one or not :eek:

Yeah although he does not know much about the situation with me. If he did there would be no situation. She is still fond of him and does not want to hurt him. With me she sees it as a decision about whether she should follow her spiritual path or the programming that has come about from her being a solo mother. In the relationship with her ex, she was still a single mother with him not really regarding the daughter as anything significant.

6. and you think this woman goes to relate because her mother wants her to :confused:

Yes. The whole thing kicked off into the currant state after her Mother told her that she was mad to leave M. Her mother has baggage over this same issue and has always been a bit worried about her wild child daughter. She thinks that M should do everything she can to patch things up with M because of the child who will do her exams in two weeks. M was worried that the up roar will effect her daughters SATs and this is why she made the resolution to do nothing until then.
M can deal with the guilt that her mother has placed on her by going to relate and dragging up all the sins that this guy has done to her over the years. It will be clear to both sides that the relationship is over and M will be able to tell her mother that she did all she could and even the experts couldn't bring them together. It seems important to M that she does not appear 'bad' in this to anyone but me.


Also extremely puzzling is you say they are going to relate to see if he is her potential partner :confused: er I thought he was her partner or how else could they go to Relate

You can go to relate for anything. I once suggested me and her go :-) I asked her this same question. She said she really didnt know, but she hoped that Relate would give her some clarity.


Hmm anyway to an outsider, well to me anyway, it seems you are being taken for a ride here and he does seem the one to have the advantage as he is still with her - and afterall if he is that awful and she is not held hostage why doesn't she just leave him.


Yeah I know this is the problem I face. In normal circumstances I would say the same thing. However the difficulty is the magical/spiritual side of things. Looking at it from that standpoint you get a slightly different idea which in my view require a bit of perseverance at least in the short term. In my system life tests you. She has gone through her life progressively killing off those elements of what made her her. She ended up in this relationship because it was not intense and did not challenge her. However early on he betrayed her. She should have left him but she was in a mess so she stayed with him. She joined my group and slowly bought in the changes she needed to have in her life. Even before we became close I (as had others) had warned her that this sort of relationship would have to go before she could progress. I even predicted at which point in her spiritual journey that realisation would have to come.
Slowly she woke up to this fact and started dreaming about the sort of relationship she wanted. We worked online quite well but started to get close when we wrote a book together. The relationship is a magical/personal one so it fuses two worlds and it is by nature intense.
Now with my teacher hat on I would say that this is all part of the test and when she sorts herself out about it then her magical life will proceed as normal. One thing that is interesting is that to do what she is doing she has had to shut herself down completely... magically and otherwise. She does nothing other than play adventure games and go geocaching. She does not write or do anything that will bring herself out of this. Other than talking to me she has neutralised her personality completely to keep things calm until the daughter's exams. It pains me (and others) to see her in this state. All of us are expecting an explosion which will be part of the process.
She knows if she does does patch things up with M it is over for us on all levels.

I know i don't know the full situation but these seem to be the facts as you presented them and I didn't think it would hurt for you to have anothers perspective - for from my perspective them reconnecting as Rosada (38.2) says is a possibility.

I agree. If I was so confident I would not be doing the readings :-) However I should point out that me and M share the same world view. Maybe I should do a new one to clear up the mess.


Of course friends do learn from one another, but they can't really demand that that friend is professional, non judgemental, totally without bias. Of course if you don't like what someone said you have a right to express it but my point is i don't think we are obligated to act in any particular way in this shared area other than being reasonably polite and truthful.

I agree. A spiritual path is about sharing with people your experiences. I think that my comments about that were attempts to come up with a way that new people to this site can get a hearing without getting a bit of a kicking. Disagreement is expected on the Internet.

Thanks for talking

[trojan]

Sounds like she and you are giving her mother an awful lot of accountabilty in the situation. I suggest she may be using her mother to disguise her own mixed feelings. After all how many adults consider their mother to that extent in what they do in their own relationships. I've come across this before and fallen for it - its a waste of time.

Likewise I'd suggest she could be using her daughter and the whole exam thing as a smokescreen to cover her own indecision. Sounds like she doesn't want to make a decision or be accountable in any way for her choices.

Whoops thats me and not the Yi - anyhow perhaps you need to start thinking and asking questions about you not her. Shes centre stage of this drama and maybe she likes the energy that gives her - maybe its time you made a decision and put yourself back in control of your life.

Maybe - feel free to disregard ..........:D

[maremaria]

With respect if you are going to start that kind of debate Open Place is the place for it isn't it ? I don't mean to be bossy its a suggestion. It always seem to me if a thread is especially addressed to any contentious issues its got a better chance of being discussed/dealt with when its got its own space and it gets worse and more entangled when its mixed up with other issues.

.

Well, I was not sure either where to post it. :rolleyes: You might be right about Open space. The reason I post it here was because I found Ben’s post quite aggressive, for my tastes, and I was annoyed from his criticism. It doesn't fit with my definition of "help" .


Actually I'm baffled as to what you mean in the underlined sentence. Theres no one on earth who can tell someone else the Yi "doesn't want a relationship with them". Picturing the Yi on a date, saying "no sorry I'm in 6 million relationships already sorry" lol.

Maybe if you look in post # 2 you will understand what I meant to say. And yes I totally agree that no one on earth is entitled to say to someone that Yi is not for him/her.

At least it's just my perception. Maybe I'm right or maybe I'm wrong.

[trojan]

.


Maybe if you look in post # 2 you will understand what I meant to say. And yes I totally agree that no one on earth is entitled to say to someone that Yi is not for him/her.

.

You mean post 2 here or your post 2 here - I can't see where you mean. Hmm anyway the main thing is I misunderstood that statement - good, i was worried you were suggesting a team of 'experts' here decide who the Yi did and did not want to converse with :eek:

[rosada]

I have re-read this thread and now realize some things that had escaped my attention the first time around:

I see now that M is not married to the man she is living with. I thought she was.
On the one hand this makes me feel less uncomfortable discussing with you the prospects for you two having a relationship, but it also makes me think this woman has more problems than I at first realized. Why is she staying with a man who is emotionally abusive? Why was it so magical when you were her "teacher" but it fell apart when you wanted to become her equal? Why is her mother still able to have such a strong influence? Sounds like she has some issues about authority!

I also see that the test M's daughter is preparing to take is the SAT. This is a test that is not administered until the student is almost ready to graduate. I thought the daughter was a small child and therefore I could see you having a point that it was not good if the live in boyfriend had no strong feeling for the little girl. However, it now appears we're talking about an full grown teenager! I don't think you can fault the man for not having a close relationship here.

Further thoughts re the grandmother: The SAT is an extremely important test that has a lot to do with determining if a person will go to college. SAT scores can effect your whole life. Therefore I would not feel the grandmother was being intrusive urging M to keep calm in the home while the girl is preparing for this all important test nor would I feel the mother is hiding behind these tests as a smoke screen to not move out. These tests really do matter and everything should be done to insure the child has a chance to do her best.

Incidentally for about $15 you can get a book called 10 REAL SAT's. By practicing taking these tests at home studies have shown students raise their test scores an average of 100 points!

Anyway, I think your friend has a very legitimate reason to keep things as they are for now, but if she continues to find excuses not to make changes after the tests then I think you should question if she really wants a partnership relationship with you. That she continues to rant to you about her frustrations with the boyfriend is not a good sign. If she were indeed clear that she intends to leave she would have nothing but sympathy for him. The fact that she still finds him irritating indicates she is still attached. The fact that she wants to talk to you about it says she still wants authority figures to make her decisions for her.

I'm not sure how all of this fits in with the I Ching, but maybe it's helpful to know how outsiders see your situation anyway. Hope so!

R.

[maremaria]

You mean post 2 here or your post 2 here - I can't see where you mean. Hmm anyway the main thing is I misunderstood that statement - good, i was worried you were suggesting a team of 'experts' here decide who the Yi did and did not want to converse with :eek:

:eek: Nope, no way. Its scary isn't it ?

(post #2 : This thread post number 2)

[magus007]

Her daughter is 11 and is going to do her SATS on May 12. M is worried about these because the daughter is not doing well with SAT mock exams and since these decide the stream she will be in secondary school she is worried that she will fall in with a bad crowd because she will be classed as remedial. In the girl's case she is right to be worried because the girl is very intelligent (probably too much), social and mature but simply hates school and is very stubborn about it. She seems to have the same attitudes to authority that her mother does :-) Ironically I would be suggesting that both stay in that house until the exams are over too... the only thing is that I would have m's partner know what was going on between her and me and her free to develop this.
I don't think the m's mother has influence in that respect... just that she accessed M's own fear and guilt.
Her partner is not an emotional abuser... just emotionally autistic. I would have no problem with him being in my universe for the daughter if both of them wanted that. My gut feeling is that he will not and I think M knows this.
The magical relationship thing is a bit of a more complex problem. It remains a magical relationship in that in such relationships you expect darkness to erupt around the weakest points of your psyche and the other person is supposed to be there for them. This took a bit of a canning with us because really she was supposed to be there for me when I left my wife and she wasn't. However since I am supposed to be the more experienced in this I suppose I should be the patent one and wait for her to work out her shadow stuff. All the divinations made over this issue both by me, and others, have indicated it works out positively in the end and it ends up with us together. This is sort of why I see it as a transition.
So do you still see him as the 'Lord' in this hex?

[rosada]

Oh my goodness, what a shame that so much is decided about their futures when the kids are only 11! Well, May 12 is not far off...

Yes, I still see "lord" as applying to the boyfriend as I see "lord" as referring to someone who holds some sort of authority and if she is unwilling to tell him about the full extent of her relationship with you than she is making him some sort of an authority figure. However, I am strictly going by Wilhelm's translation so I don't see this line as meaning he is some sort of superior being as other translations seem to imply.

Perhaps the "narrow street" could be referring their meetings with the counsellor. Perhaps this space gives her a chance to see/express how she really feels. And this is not necessarily a bad thing for your interests. Perhaps having the nerve to tell him how she really feels means she will be able to "Bite Through" any illusions he's had that their relationship could be lasting and this is what it will take for her to be able to leave.

38.2 Certainly seems to assure us that those who are meant to be together will ultimately be together.

Maybe you can get back to us a bit later on down the line and report how things really did finally all sort out.

[trojan]

In 38.2 I haven't found in my own readings the 'lord' to indicate someone in authority or someone of any special quality though it can be. It can just as easily apply to any friend or associate so I think you are paying too much attention to the 'superiority' of this word magus. For me in my own readings its even meant a causal aquantaince i needed to meet or connect with for some reason and they certainly had no especial status.

I am assuming btw the man she lives with is not the childs father - you haven't said explicitly, maybe i missed it.

Theres a contradiction in that if this man is so indifferent to the child why is it so important he stays around. Maybe the kid would prefer he went and would do better in the exams if he wasn't there - did anyone ask her if she cared one way or the other.

Lol sorry this is no longer much Yi related and a bit of a soap opera discussion -

[magus007]

Yeah he is not the father of the child :-) The reason is that ever since she can remember he has been that figure around her for the last five years. He is a waste of air to me.. but to M's muggle friends he is a 'good bloke'.
It is a bit of a soap opera ;-) one of the reasons I was thinking of writing it as a novel when the story shows where it is supposed to be going