Needing help [Archive] - I Ching Community

void

January 2nd, 2006, 04:56 PM

Hi Sissy, its weird with relationship questions - it seems quite common the Yi gives these glowing answers where the object of desire is showing no interest at all. I'm not sure exactly why this happens, maybe as Micheline says its referring to a time of increase within you. Sometimes i think its because of idea of what is desirable in love and relationships is a very long way from the Yi Jings ? Also people tend to ask about relationships when they see there is really no hope they tend to consult the Yi in I think a last attempt to salvage something for their broken heart. Could be maybe heart ache is a precursor for great personal growth (as well as making many poems and songs, lol)

I really think if the person has given you no reason to hope there is anything between you its a big mistake to pin hopes on seemingly encouraging answers from the Yi. I've seen it over and over and I think its quite tragic that rather than accept the reality people will go on and on living in hope purely because they think the Yi is telling them to. But how do I know ? Sometimes maybe it pays off to be hopeful ??

Re 42 it seems positive though line 4 puzzles me a great deal. I have never read a commentary that satisfied me with regard to this line, I just don't know what assisting in removal of the capital means at all ?? So i would appreciate some enlightenment there if anyone can help ?

With 41, line 5 and 6 I would tend to take it as good fortune in what appears to be a loss.

I agree its very puzzling to get what seems such a 'thumbs up' from the Yi when reality does not bear that out. Perhaps others have some ideas ?
Perhaps you are being of great benefit to this person in some way - they are expereiencing increase from you ? If they are showing no kind of interest at all though I think 41, 5 and 6 was a very encouraging answer - what you now see as loss is infact beneficial.

Ha Micheline although I may take a no nonesense approach I am often full of nonsense myself !http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/spin.gif

BTW I have in the past pinned hope on untenable relationships because I thought the Yi was encouraging even when the other person wasn't.

I'm so wary of doing that now because you can waste so much of your life doing that.

peace

January 2nd, 2006, 07:55 PM

What I have done in this situation is look at what I'm projecting onto this other person - what disowned part of myself am I trying to bring back to myself. Many times this is what forms the erotic connection and it has nothing at all to do with someone else.

Then, use the reading to heal this part of you and integrate into your Self.
We are attracted to that in another that we don't fully own in ourselves.

jesed

January 2nd, 2006, 08:08 PM

Hi Sissy

Just in case the comment could be useful

The question is like a general diganosis of the relationship. In this case the principal answer (hex 42) shows the objective develop of the relationship; the changing line advice how and when the consultant should act (changing line 4 of hex 42); and the related hexagram (hex 25) shows the intended direction to take.

Now, hex 42 shows a calendaric time that started around september 17 and ended around December 16 this year. It means, the objective time for Increase (42) the relationship IS IN THE PAST. Now the relationship is under the Unexpected (25)

But this past facts are ruling the relationship nowadays. It means: you should learn from what had happened between september 17 and December 16 in the relationship.

One of the lessons from 42 is: to increse something, one needs to sacrifice something.

Line 4 of hex 42 advice to remain faithful and loyal in order to achive the prince follows you. This line have a relationship with line 4 of 25: remaining inocently faithful to your own nature achieve that you won't need to concern in protect what belongs to you.

The image formed with this answer, is like you need to sacrifice some of your intentions in order the relationship improve. Try to relax a litlle bit the intended effort to increase the relationship, and remain truth to what reality is.

Best wishes

peace

January 2nd, 2006, 08:16 PM

To continue about the projecting.
You will find something - some quality or qualities in that person that you wish you had more of or less of.

If this is difficult to figure out - do a written dialogue with this person. You can actually ask them what it is you are to learn from them and what you are so attracted to.

Anyway - if this helps you...it works for me.
Rosalie

sissy20042001

January 2nd, 2006, 11:48 PM

Very very interesting all these insights about my reading. There are lots for me now to think about. I have kinda moved on, but thought friendship would be possible, but I feel rejection. Im not sure if there is really rejection or if the person rejects me in fact, so Im just stepping back and whatever will be, will be. I should not be still give this person some credit but a part of me still do, so the questions. It is weird, sometimes our brains do not want anyone anymore but the habit or heart - whatever you call it - still holds on. I apreciate all you have said to me and thank you all very much for this. If anyone wants to step in and still comment, I would like it a lot. Thanks for everyone. xxx

sissy20042001

January 2nd, 2006, 11:58 PM

By the way, the time refered by Jesed as the increasing moment is exactly the moment where I experienced rejection or maybe some mind games played on me. Im not sure yet. I know there is blessing in disguise and maybe this is the case. I need closure though, thats why I need so much to ask and understand things. My heart always have to understand things in a 'brainly' way if you know what I mean. xxx

pakua

January 9th, 2006, 02:06 PM

Hi Void,

You said "it seems quite common the Yi gives these glowing answers where the object of desire is showing no interest at all" and "I agree its very puzzling to get what seems such a 'thumbs up' from the Yi when reality does not bear that out"

Did you ever reach any conclusions as to why this should be?

peace

January 9th, 2006, 03:44 PM

Pakua:

It most likely has nothing to do with the person - it's your own projection of your desire.
The positive response probably means that you're willing to look at that part of you - and do some personal growth in the area that you're attracted to.

Rosalie

void

January 9th, 2006, 11:04 PM

Pakua I haven't really reached any conclusions about why this is. Partly maybe because our culture seems to present romantic love (and shopping) as the ultimate fulfillment of all ones soul desires. This is crazy, we expect so much, look outwards for what we want. Maybe the Yi has such a different perspective on our romantic relations we just don't get it when it answers about them. Its now common for people to 'shop for love' treating prospective mates as if they were objects or job applicants that must have all the right attributes - and I ask myself what has this got to do with love ? I think 'why do you expect the Yi Jing to help you pick out a person like you were buying a new pair of trousers ?

Then again maybe its just something I didn't get - maybe the person was responding positively and I didn't see it or didn't respond appropriately, therefore losing the opportunity the Yi said was there ? D'you know sometimes I think its harder for some of us to deal with very positive feedback from people than negative, we don't know what to do with it, we might run away (ahem have been introspecting a bit on this lately)

Also relationship questions usually involve asking how another feels and like I've said before if you can't ask them yourself its not a good sign. Also I think the Yi does not give you unlimited access to anothers psyche - its not your business, ask them yourself, they will tell you as much as they want you to know - thats all you have a right to know.

These are just ideas, its still pretty much of a mystery to me though.

micheline

January 10th, 2006, 04:04 AM

I dont think the answers above were actually glowing green lights.." a picture" of the image of M and sissy . 42.4 an increasing flow of energy, but line 4 is not the receiver of the enrgy (dont think). and 41.5 is often a blessing in disguise, a protection, a blessing in not getting what you want.

maybe the YI like an old grandmother..she wont tell you a whole lot.

"YI, I really like this guy!! will it work out?"

yi: "hmmmm, this is a very nice boy indeed. he makes you feel good."

"will it work out, does he like me?"

YI : "well, you're two people looking for love. It is nIce to be looking for love. Thats a wonderful part of being alive"

later

"He's rejecTed me !! oh no! you said it was good! why did you lie to me?"

Yi: "i didnt lie my child. I said it was good to be in love. and it is. but if this boy doesnt like you, its a blessing that he lets you go. Heaven watches over you. no worries, honey. It is still good to be in love"

void

January 10th, 2006, 08:03 AM

I'm not at all sure the Yi recognises being 'in love' as often its a fabrication to cover peoples intense fear of being alone. The people who 'look for love' most urgently are the ones that frighten me the most. After all whats the desperation about if not self evasion.

lightofdarkness

January 10th, 2006, 02:58 PM

From the position of categories and associations - basic emotions are mapped to the I Ching as:

heaven - anger issues (replacement of context through erradication, competitive etc)

lake - love issues (sex - physical and mental - replacement of context through replication of self - cooperative etc) - hex 41 has lake as bottom trigram.

fire - acceptance issues

thunder - surprise issues

wind - anticipation issues

water - rejection issues

mountain - sadness/grief issues (that can be turned into discernment issues, quality control etc)

earth - fear issues (that can be turned into issues of devotion to another/others - we use the context to protect us against what we fear)

42 covers anticipation/cultivation issues in a context of surprise, the sudden/new etc

41 covers discernment issues in a context of replication (a focus on purity through concentration, distillation etc where if that process fails then we have literal decrease)

If left to run its course, the description of 42 'completing correctly' is given by analogy to:

100011
101010
------
001001 - 52 discernment, quality control(led)

The description of 41 'completing correctly' is given by analogy to:

110001
101010
-------
011011 - 57 cultivation, becoming influencial

Chris.

pakua

January 10th, 2006, 05:53 PM

I was thinking more along the lines of Yi showing a picture of the relationship, not asking what the other is feeling or thinking. I tend to agree with you there, asking about others can get dicey.

It seems I've seen a number of comments here that people have been fooled into thinking there was something there, when in fact there was nothing, nothing at all, and it's happened to me too, even though it wasn't even in a romantic sense.

But it just seems such a glaring discrepancy. Usually Yi does show what's going on, and you can see it working, but in some cases, it's just completely off the wall - it couldn't be further wrong. So I'm wondering what's happening in those cases.

I was thinking maybe there has to be some connection between you, even if it's a negative connection, before Yi can work. Just like when you do a composite chart between two people, there has to be a connection before it can work.

Any thoughts?

bruce

January 10th, 2006, 07:34 PM

Hi Pakua,

Couple thoughts.

One is something Chris said (above) that rings a bell: "lake - love issues (sex - physical and mental - replacement of context through replication of self?" I think there's a key in "replacement of context through replication of self", and I think this where questions receive answers that don't appear to fit. In matter of romance, we project ourselves onto the other person, and separating what is about them and what is about you can become confuzzled. This is also true in anything we?re deeply subjectively involved with, not only boy/girl romance.

The other is the matter of magnitude: The size of Yi's intended answer needs to fit the size of your question to the Yi. Because Yi's archetypal language encompasses such large images, it is easy to apply large meanings where only small ones were intended. I believe this is the "exaggeration" that Chris mentions here quite often. It's more than a square peg in a square hole; it?s also the size of the square peg that makes the answer fit.

martin

January 10th, 2006, 10:26 PM

Agreeing with a lot that has been said sofar about projection and "disowned" parts of ourselves but sometimes there is perhaps still another explanation for the apparent "errors" of the IC.

I believe that important relationships start on inner planes long before they manifest in the outer world and continue inwardly long after they ended outwardly. And apparently most "errors" of the IC occur when outwardly nothing or not much is happening between us and the other, when the outer relationship has not yet or hardly started or when it is nearly or completely over.
Could it be that the Yi is in such cases talking about what is already or still happening between the partners on inner levels? I think so ..

martin

January 10th, 2006, 10:32 PM

Btw, for sex only lake is not enough, you also need thunder.
Astrologically venus (similar to lake) and mars (thunder).

Sigmund Freud

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

bruce

January 11th, 2006, 12:49 AM

Yo Martin,

That sounds like a time gap problem you are presenting. Having a hard time getting my head around how or why Yi would answer, outside of the time we're inquiring of. If Yi always answers to where our head is at, and not necessarily where our physical reality is at, how would you discern which time it is that Yi speaking in or to? Or perhaps? hmm.. maybe the time of the head isn?t always in synch with the time of the heart. Is this what you?re saying?

lightofdarkness

January 11th, 2006, 12:51 AM

thunder over lake - 54 (surprise in a context of sexual love)

Reflects the intense energy expenditure that begins relationships where they can end up 'out of energy' and fade away (immaturity at work ;-))... but the intensity can be fun.

lake over thunder - 17 (sexual love in the context of surprise/new/'enlightenment')

reflects the focus on some 'new' belief/following etc

Chris.

martin

January 11th, 2006, 05:07 AM

Hi Bruce,

I didn't intend to introduce a time gap problem. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif
An example to clarify: suppose somebody asks the Yi about a love relationship that ended a year ago and that the ex-partners didn't communicate since then. The Yi gives an answer that indicates that a lot is happening or will happen between them and the answer sounds promising. Yet nothing happens, months pass by, no contact, nothing.

Was the Yi wrong? I would say no, not necessarily, because it may be that the relationship that ended in the outer world continues in the inner world. The partners are perhaps still communicating on subtler inner levels. That is what the Yi is talking about and it is happening now, not at another time.

Of course one could say that the Yi gives misleading or useless information in such a case. Because we usually are interested in what goes on outwardly and not in what may happen on inner planes that we are hardly aware of.
But that is how it is with oracles. From the viewpoint of the intelligence behind it what we see as real (i.e. what we experience through our outer senses) is only a small part of the totality and maybe not even the most important part.

bruce

January 11th, 2006, 11:01 AM

Hi Martin,

Yes, I suppose that scenario is possible, but it seems more likely that the answer received had little or nothing to do with the question about a relationship that ended a year ago, and everything to do with the psychology of the person asking such an irrelevant and impertinent question. Geeze, no wonder they?d be confused.

lightofdarkness

January 11th, 2006, 12:22 PM

An issue with consciousness is its ability to mix fact and fiction, the real vs the imagined. The drive overall is on interpretation, we cannot stop creating fictions to try and understand something 'immediately' rather than wait for Science etc to come up with a 'rational' answer.

The development of consciousness appears to be as an agent of mediation in dealing with novelty in a context or a novel context overall. The use of imagination allows us to adapt to contexts we have not yet experienced in the flesh - but when/if we do we can 'fit in' really quickly.

So.. central to the use of imagination is 'what if'.

The I Ching as a metaphor for what our brains deal with (objects/relationships) works like a filter in identifying, imagined or real or some hybrid, all that was/is/will be; all that could have been/is not/could be. It can also be used to differentiate facts from values, as well as the user's nature of being proactive (instigating things) or reactive (responding to things).

If used PROACTIVELY it can serve as an indicator of what particular is 'pushing ones buttons' unconsciously.

If used REACTIVELY it can serve to describe ALL aspects of some situation where the use of 'random/miraculous' methods brings out one aspect of that situation where ALL hexagrams apply to varying degrees (the bestfit/worstfit ordering of hexagrams).

As an example of the proactive method (answering GENERAL questions) consider the following about a recent event with my daughter (original post to my ICPlus list):

The particular questions I came up with [in ICPLUS) stem from my analysis of the generic dynamics of the brain dealing with 'novel' situations and where, using the questions, we can extract the GENERAL context of which the question is being asked.

For a recent example, with my mother in the hospice I and my daughter were there every day. During this period, three weeks ago, my daughter's car was written-off due to a severe storm that hit the hospice car park and knocked a tree onto her car. Although insured etc this was an issue in that (a) my daughter had now had no car and (b) she could not drive mine due to insurance issues re those under 25 and still on provisional licences.

So - I was the only source of transport outside of taxis and that ment my daughter spent more time at the hospice as I was the one who went out for supplies, paid bills, etc etc IOW she did not have a 'break' from the hospice room as much as I did where prior to the accident we would take turns on these 'outings'.

I asked by daughter to do the ICPlus questions in the context of how she felt in the current context (a few days after the accident); she got hex 47 where the focus is on being confined (either by willingly or by force) and the associated exhaustion that that can bring (we were at the hospice for 6 weeks, day in, day out, and all emotionally draining.)

My point here is that she did not realise how she felt LOCALLY/PRECISELY, she was generally 'cranky' but could not nail-down what was setting that off
- IOW there was general concern with her grandmother etc but the accident concentrated 'issues' to bring out that focus on contractive bounding - a boundary working to (a) keep someone/thing 'IN' or (b) 'OUT'. (the first answer by her was the context was more into a sense of 'values', qualitative focus rather than quantitative)

The hexagram has a dual meaning in that it covers the positive as well as the negative in that it also covers the 'carer' function of PROTECTING - IOW besides HER IMMEDIATE perspective of being 'fenced in' so there was also here GENERAL perspective of 'closing in' grandmother as a form of aid etc. - the role of carers etc is to 'ease' the pain/suffering, to keep out excesses etc. and so to protect.

The ICPlus material is aimed at describing the GENERAL context that is 'pushing one's buttons' rather than the particulars of an asked question; the focus is on one's FEELINGS and so draws out the unconscious as well as conscious elements of the WHOLE context.

With the XOR material we can then take that hexagram and extract all of the
64 parts to cover how the context 'begins', 'completes' etc etc etc and from there give our consciousness the CHOICE of (a) adapting to context or (b) trying to assert one's own, of (c) moving on. (thus for 47, it has its skeletal form, its infrastructure, its 27-ness, described by analogy to the underplayed qualities of hexagram 10 with ITS focus on a need for conduct etc whilst carefully following a path when under close scrutiny.)

Her GENERAL 'vibe' of her being in the current context was (a) context was about values (her feelings but no particulars, just a 'vibe' of being uncomfortable etc), (b) about what was/is/will be (no car), (c) she was reactive (little she could do). This gives a core sense of Water (contractive bounding). For the top trigram and a focus on the text operating in the context, she had (a) a facts bias (death), (b) about what was/is/will-be (inevitability), and (c) reactive (the waiting with little one could do)

My daughter was surprised at the GENERAL precision of the result just based on those generic questions but was able to 'resolve' what was troubling her and so 'adapted' to the current context as best she could (and she did extremely well in dealing with her grandmother as her grandmother died)

My point has been on how our LOCAL expressions, our intense use of words etc often covers-up the core context influence and how it pushes our buttons and how through use of the ICPlus perspective we can extract out what is troubling us/driving us (by understanding things we can, through the use of consciousness, REFINE our responses, understand the contexts etc and so move more 'smoothly' in those contexts)

Chris.

lightangel

January 11th, 2006, 05:57 PM

Hi Bruce,

I am curious.. why is it impertinent or irrelevant to ask about a relationship that is over or even one that hasn't started yet, for that matter? I think people ask those questions all the time. In fact, I rarely see questions in this forum about current relationships. Most of the time the relationship hasn't happened yet or is already over.

As to the misleading answers, I think that all of those theories are good. Maybe sometimes we are just projecting, other times the answer fits a different level of reality, other times this reality is not as it seems.. who knows. But I do hope the Yi does not change the subject on me just because it disapproves of my question! I don't think it does.. disapprove of any question, btw. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

bruce

January 11th, 2006, 06:35 PM

Hi Angel,

I believe the Yi will speak to the now, and if the relationship exists on as a fantasy, then the Yi wouldn't speak to the fantasy but to the current reality. Just how I see it.

Chris, great post!

lightangel

January 11th, 2006, 07:58 PM

Lol, I agree with you. Although the Yi has been known to sometimes answer questions about tv shows.. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

But I still don't see who is talking about a fantasy relationship here.. ?

bruce

January 11th, 2006, 08:00 PM

Hi again, Angel,

I was preoccupied when I left my last post, and want to return to it.

Are you really suggesting there?s no such thing as asking Yi an irrelevant question?

First, I?m not at all opposed to fantasy, whether it?s Alice in Wonderland or an online sexual encounter. To each their own; and I perceive Yi as being at least as liberally minded about this sort of thing. Fantasy in a relationship can be life-giving. Fantasy in our personal lives can also be life-giving - to a point.

What I was referring to was the forlorn ex-lover/husband/boyfriend/girlfriend who holds onto wishes of what it could have been and might still be, when in fact it has died. This often isn?t acknowledged, however, as fantasy. It?s posed to Yi as though it is entirely real. How then is the Yi to respond to such a question?

I, on several occasions here, have run to the defense of hex.4 being seen in a positive manner, rather than only as the accusing finger of the teacher to the fool. (That image always bothers me, when assumingly applied to Meng.) That said, I do acknowledge that the negative side of 4 most certainly exists, where and when it is applicable. And I believe in such a case as I?ve illustrated, it is pure foolishness to expect Yi to acknowledge a foolish question in a direct manner.

But an answer will be received, irregardless. Now the question is: how to apply or interpret an answer, which rather than speaking to the irrelevant question, is speaking of the mind or psychology of the person asking the question?

bruce

January 11th, 2006, 08:03 PM

Angel,

"But I still don't see who is talking about a fantasy relationship here.. ?"

You yourself said "I think people ask those questions all the time. In fact, I rarely see questions in this forum about current relationships. Most of the time the relationship hasn't happened yet or is already over."

These aren't "fantasy" questions?

martin

January 11th, 2006, 08:09 PM

No, not necessarily, although it sometimes (often?) is phantasy of course.
But when I talked about what happens on "inner planes" I didn't mean phantasy.
It's real! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

bruce

January 11th, 2006, 08:16 PM

Martin,

If the question is about something on "inner planes", I see no reason why the Yi wouldn't answer it directly. The context of the question is real, because it has been acknowledged as being about ones own inner condition. As I've said, Yi will speak to the psychology of the person asking the question.

lightangel

January 11th, 2006, 08:17 PM

I see that you interpret that as fantasy now.. Interesting.. thing is, when somebody is in love with somebody else and they don't have a relationship, well they sure have fantasies but when they ask a question like "what will happen", "does she love me", I don't see that as a fantasy question. I see it as a legitimate desire to know if their love is corresponded and if they will eventually have a relationship. Other times, when the relationship is over, they might still ask "how does he feel about me", "what can I do to win him back".. I still dont' see that as a fantasy, it's just a question about what might be.

Take a question, very popular one: "what does he think of me or how does he feel about me"
Does it make a big difference if it is asked before, during or after a hypothetical relationship? Is it a fantasy question if the other person is not interested? I dont think so. The relationship might be dead but the question is still valid, I think.

Now, if the person imagines herself to be in a relationship that doesn't exist.. and ask a question, like "will he ask me to marry him".. well I think they have more problems than just a bad question for the Yi..

And I do think that there is no such thing as an irrelevant question. We are humans. Any question that preoccupies us enough to make us toss coins repeatedly while chanting it, trusting in an unseen presence is important to us. Surely, if we humans can have enough empathy for each other to understand why we want to know something, this thing that is the Yi, clearly superior to us, should also have that empathy and I think it does and it speaks to us in the best way it can. And sometimes it tells us "4" because we push too far, but only sometimes. But that is just what i think..

bruce

January 11th, 2006, 08:30 PM

Angel,

When interpreting, I try not to judge which of whose questions has legitimate context and which do not, for just the reasons you've mentioned. Fact is, I don't know. But when looking at the amount of confusion some of these questions raise, it gives a pretty good hint. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

lightangel

January 11th, 2006, 08:39 PM

I was rereading the thread a bit, Bruce, and I think now maybe I know better what you mean.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

and if the relationship exists on as a fantasy, then the Yi wouldn't speak to the fantasy but to the current reality<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

You mean that if a person has a fantasy in their head about a relationship and they ask a question, the Yi answers that question based on reality.

But in that case, there would be no misleading issues, the Yi would say.. "well, he thinks of you very seldom and when he does, very briefly..", instead of saying "he really feels connected to you".

Now, what Martin suggests is that perhaps such a connection exists, in an inner plane and the Yi refers to that connection with the 'misleading' answer.

What you say is that the Yi responds by saying "you wish"! Lol

I don't know, my point is that nobody knows for sure what the Yi means by such inaccurate answers. After all, the forlorn lover will find very little consolation in knowing a strong inner connection exists but will never 'come down' to reality.. sob! But, OTOH, I should hope the Yi is not teasing me!

Maybe you're right, maybe we shouldn't ask this kinds of questions.

martin

January 11th, 2006, 08:55 PM

Perhaps, Bruce, there is some confusion about what I mean by "inner" planes or worlds. I do not mean your or mine private inner world, but rather the collective inner reality.
In this shared reality things are happening and people are communicating, although they may not be aware of it in their everyday waking consciousness.
And inner communication can happen even if there is outwardly no relationship, no contact, at that moment.

You wrote "If the question is about something on "inner planes", I see no reason why the Yi wouldn't answer it directly"
Well, the questions that I had in mind are not specifically about inner planes but about a relationship. And then the Yi may give an answer that seems incorrect to us because we are focused on outer reality while it is in fact correct, because the answer refers to inner events.

Does this make it more clear?

bruce

January 11th, 2006, 09:34 PM

Poor Sissy, asked a simple question and we've turned it onto a Socratic discussion.

Martin, yes, it does! Thank you. I completely agree with that. I believe, in fact, we're saying much the same thing, IE: "And inner communication can happen even if there is outwardly no relationship, no contact, at that moment." That indeed speaks to the psychology of the person asking the question. Not saying it isn't real on that level.

Angel, pardon if I sound like I'm contradicting myself here, but 'should' and 'shouldn't' aren't in my vocabulary nearly as much as they used to be. I've all but eliminated those or similar words from my dialogue with the Yi. I'm interested in what benefits and furthers, and knowing what potentially impedes progress, to make improvements upon my understanding of how things work. It's been my experience that this is the way Yi answers most of my questions. Sometimes there is a "STOP, you idiot!" or a "What are you waiting for?!" answer. Most of the time it's more like "Consider and weigh what this is REALLY about." So now I try to form my questions more along those lines.

I truly believe the Yi can and does answer even silly or playful questions, whether about a TV show or a stimulating thought. But those questions exist within an honest and hopefully awakened contextual field. I believe that?s all that is required of us to receive an honest and awakened answer.

bruce

January 11th, 2006, 10:14 PM

Martin, um, I think my arrow fell short of your target. lol

You are speaking of actual telepathic contact with a person with whom there exists no physical or verbal communication? Or did I read it right the first time?

martin

January 11th, 2006, 10:27 PM

Yes, right, that's what I'm speaking of!
Why didn't you pick that up telepathically? http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

bruce

January 11th, 2006, 10:59 PM

I had the music up too loud, probably. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/paperbag.gif

Interesting point, now that I finally understand it! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif I see no reason why that's not possible. It is the condition of many long distance relationships, especially with the advent of the internet. My only observation on it would be that, those who have relationships on that subtle, subconscious plane often spend time together also in the present, in-person, on phone, in letters or over the internet. That makes it relevant to the present. Just where actual synchronicity ends and imagination begins, is hard to tell, except by way of confirmation with one another, which will also take place in the present.

Isn't this where a question pertaining to a particular deity, spirit guide or ancestor might arise? I mean, how can we know for sure there is a literal connection or a purely imaginary one? Would Yi speak only the imaginary, if there was no literal proof? I think so. But again, in that scenario there is an honest contextual field. Yi can work with that, so long as we lend ourselves to understanding, and not just having our fantasy tickled.

bruce

January 11th, 2006, 11:44 PM

Will come back to Chris' thought here, Martin.

"An issue with consciousness is its ability to mix fact and fiction, the real vs the imagined. The drive overall is on interpretation, we cannot stop creating fictions to try and understand something 'immediately' rather than wait for Science etc to come up with a 'rational' answer.

The development of consciousness appears to be as an agent of mediation in dealing with novelty in a context or a novel context overall. The use of imagination allows us to adapt to contexts we have not yet experienced in the flesh - but when/if we do we can 'fit in' really quickly."

The mind is an amazing thing, and the Yi, no less so; if indeed they are separate.

martin

January 12th, 2006, 12:33 AM

Reality and imagination, fact and fiction ...
It's not always easy to distinguish an "inner" fact (a telepathically received message for example) from imagination. They appear more or less on the same inner screen, so to speak.
But sometimes it's very clear, even without a reality check (phone the telephone compagnie and ask "is it true that deity such and so dialed my number a few minutes ago?" http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif)

An incomplete list of differences:

- Facts are somehow alien (Fremdkorper in German), not like me, I couldn't produce them.
In a musical analogy they would be like sounds from a different instrument, not this instrument that I am.

- Facts usually appear sudden, phantasies build up more gradually. In other words, facts appear as given, as if you perceive them (hence the term "inner senses"), with phantasies it's more like you construct them and build them up in your mind.

- Facts present themselves with greater clarity, phantasies are relatively vague.

- Facts are more subtle. Imagination is relatively gross.

- Other differences? What do you think? http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

seeker

January 12th, 2006, 03:23 AM

Ive read this discussion with great interest as I am one of those who consistently receives answers on relationships that appear misleading. My theory has always been that Yi gives us answers that get us where we need to be, not necessarily where we want to be. But Im curious as to how you think Yi would answer if you specifically ask it for a straight answer to your question. If your preface your question, by saying can you please answer the question I ask directly, will you then get a direct answer or will Yi ignore your plea and answer as it sees fit?

I actually did that today, so will let you know what happens. Though of course, it would have to be an ongoing study to have merit. But I asked about someone I just met (the fantasy if you will) and got 42.1.3. Thought that was positive but have not heard from him. So, after reading this discussion, I asked another question today, prefacing the question with can you please answer the question I ask, and got 42.1. Interesting that I got a similar response. As I mentioned in my thread, I do not hold out much hope. In the last few months I have been stood up 5 times and had several other one time things, so I have pretty much lost faith. I did also get 49 as part of my original response, so maybe my lost faith is part of that. But it will be interesting to see what happens in light of this discussion. Will let you know.

bruce

January 12th, 2006, 11:17 AM

Seeker, I've found that it is helpful to specify for Yi to answer the question directly (btw, some here believe the Yi always answers the question directly), and it has made the process clearer. But, I haven't found it to guarantee that the picture isn't more complex than the simple answer I was hoping for. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

pakua

January 12th, 2006, 09:28 PM

Hi Martin,

"And then the Yi may give an answer that seems incorrect to us because we are focused on outer reality while it is in fact correct, because the answer refers to inner events. "

This is what troubles me. When the relationship is "real", Yi answers according to reality, ie either positive or negative answers as the case may be, but when the relationship becomes fantasy, Yi may also give positive or negative answers, with no hint that now it's suddenly only in the inner worlds.

How are we supposed to know Yi shifted gears? The question usually has to do with outer reality, so for it to suddenly change it's focus without telling us is not very fair!

micheline

January 12th, 2006, 11:59 PM

re; fantasy and reality...Pakua's question awhile back seems relevant....doesnt there have to be some kind of vital connection (other than collective reality) to make the response meaningful to here and now?

if my teenage daughter is out with friends and not answering her cell phone, I frequently ask the Yi "how she is doing" and I implicitly trust the responses ...they tell me about her, and do not address my psychological state...personal experience bears this out for me. Her friends think I am psychic. Because there is a viable connection between my daughter and I, I find I can use the Yi to "tune in" on whats happening with her.

BUt if I were to ask about some person with whom I have no real viable connection -the Yi will still tune in to collective reality perhaps, but the response is going to be mysterious to me...simply because I have nothing concrete to relate it to. It may address a part of the reality I share with that person on an inner level, but how can I ever verify that? or know specifically what it is saying? It will seem like fantasy.

I think that is why questions themselves need to be focused and specific, if you want truly meaningful responses that you can work with. The Yi doesnt change focus on us, it simply reflects a general focus or a specific one depending on our question and our "relationship" (clear or vague) with the issue or person we are asking about.

martin

January 13th, 2006, 12:27 AM

Hi Pakua,

I think the Yi didn't change focus, it always talks about outer as well as inner events. It talks about the totality. The outer world, our imagination and the (real, not imagined, collective) inner world.
Sometimes nothing or not much is happening outside or even in our imagination. And then it may be difficult for us to understand what the Yi is talking about.
But, as an old oracle book that I once had said in its preface: "not everybody understands, but everybody can try to understand".
And I believe we can learn a lot from this "unfair" (lol) behavior of the Yi. We can learn to become more sensitive to inner or subtle realities. Or at least try to learn.
Is that not what IT is all about?

bruce

January 13th, 2006, 01:06 AM

Well said, Martin.

That indeed is the puzzlement. In times of illumination it's easy to see that connection of inner and outer as being reflections of one another. It is a love affair with ones self. When another, outside of ones self, IE: an external love object, enters the foray, it is like 41.3: "When three people journey together, their number decreases by one. When one man journeys alone, he finds a companion." When the companion is there, externally, that is what the mind and Yi are likely to speak to. If the outer companion isn't there, it is speaking to the inner lover. When all three are there, one will have to ride in the back seat - unless they truly are soul mates, which in that case, each is in each other; and again there are two, which really is one.

bruce

January 13th, 2006, 01:29 AM

Btw, ?love object? could be a career, a car or boat, a stacked blond or a hunk with 6-pack abs. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

lightofdarkness

January 13th, 2006, 02:10 PM

The realm of Lake is a realm of context replacement by replication. This is not just physically sexual, it is also mental and includes narcissm as a property (the focus on mirror and issues of depth etc etc thus there is self-reflection literally as well as figuratively.)

IOW lake includes vanity of pop stars, famous artists, entertainers etc where they present a facade to the audience who then see themselves in that facade etc and so the image of the pop star is replicated and the star even made immortal such that they live on after their death - and so continue to replicate themselves in mind not just in body.

Thus in such hexagrams as 41 the 'decrease' is initially figurative in that it covers distillation/condensation etc - if that fails then comes the literal decrease.

Chris.

bruce

January 13th, 2006, 02:30 PM

Chris,

So, the two small bowls for the sacrifice contain the distilled remains, or the facade, or myth?

martin

January 13th, 2006, 03:43 PM

I think that narcism and mirroring are indeed aspects of lake, and the resemblance with the astrological venus is striking. The symbol for venus looks like a little mirror! (I dont know if that is coincidence or intended, btw)
But I would call lake (and venus) rather "sensual" than sexual. Sexuality also involves another energy that is similar to thunder (mars).

Of course lake correlates with Freud's pleasure principle and he did see pleasure as basically sexual. It's interesting to notice then that in his horoscope venus and mars are in reception (venus is in a sign ruled by mars and mars is in a sign ruled by venus). This could mean that in Freud's experience pleasure and sexuality were closely linked, hence his tendency to reduce the one to the other.

martin

January 13th, 2006, 04:04 PM

In Freudian terms, hex 41 is the pleasure principle (lake, venus) below the reality principle (mountain, saturn).
The quest for pleasure adapts to reality (the fact that gratification is not or not immediately possible, for example).

Hex 4 represents a similar confrontation with reality but in 4 the adaptation to reality is less smooth. Imagine a child (water trigram, moon) that cries and turns red and blue in the face because it doesn't get what it wants. 4 is like that.
41 is more mature and more accepting. The child has learned how to deal with "reality".

bruce

January 13th, 2006, 04:20 PM

Late Lament

Breathe deep the gathering gloom,
Watch lights fade from every room.
Bedsitter people look back and lament
Another day's useless energy is spent.

Impassioned lovers wrestle as one;
Lonely man cries for love and has none;
New mother picks up and suckles her son;
Senior citizens wish they were young.

Cold-hearted orb that rules the night
Removes the colours from our sight,
Red is grey and yellow white
But we decide which is right
And which is an illusion.

Moody Blues

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

peace

January 13th, 2006, 04:33 PM

Hey Bruce -
I remember that one...
Now I'll have to read the rest of the thread to find out why you added that - I'm about 3 days behind!

Rosalie

pakua

January 13th, 2006, 05:20 PM

It is http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

But I'm still sticking with my connection theory. It's the only thing that makes sense to me right now.

In my situation, for a year or more Yi gave me answers that "worked" in the outer world, generally very positive answers, then all of a sudden my friend broke the connection, but the positive answers kept coming. I didn't change my questions, focussing only on the inner world, so I don't see why Yi should either.

As an interesting followup, there's a Tarot reader I see once in a while. He's the best I've ever seen. Because the friendship was so important to me, I went to see the reader about it. All the cards came up positive, speaking along the lines of rebirth of the relationship. They also described the person quite well, so there was no doubt it was her.

I haven't seen that person again. The reader later said he must have bought into my illusion.

In the first stage, the relationship was real, and Yi reflected that. Later, it became fantasy, and I think Yi reflected that too.

I suspect once the connection broke, there was no alternative but for Yi to go from the totality (inner and outer) to strictly inner, but it will be difficult for anyone to know that now it's only inner. And really, I wonder how usefull that is. Seems it would be more useful to get a 33 or 12 or something like that.

And yet, I know you can ask about strangers, so...

seeker

January 14th, 2006, 04:22 PM

And if we are focusing on illusion why wouldnt Yi just give us a line that tells us that? One of the translations I have for 35.5 is Don?t float into the imaginary world with fears of success or failure. When I get that line, I look at what Im doing more closely, figuring I am probably acting under false or imaginery presumptions.

So, why wouldnt Yi just tell us outright? As I mentioned above I had asked about a guy I had met but then did not hear from, but got what seemed positive answers 42.1.3 and 42.1, yet nothing. Today when I ask about how to proceed I get 51.4, you could if there was an opponent, and then in answer to other questions 24.2.5 and 35.5. Today, the answers are very clearly saying let it go, learn from it and move on. This has happened to me a few times. When I ask about something right away, I get positive answers, but when nothing happens and I ask again, I get the oppisite and usually more on target answers. I have also noticed that you have to watch the pattern of the answers if you are asking about something over a longer period of time. I had a relationship last year that I had high hopes would eventually work out. I got what seemed to be positive answers, but when I looked at all of the answers as a whole, I realized I had just ignored some negative ones I received. The answers actually varied from day to day, week to week.

So, my theory is this, perhaps Yi always gives answers about the inner world. We mistakenly relate them to the outer world because we are human and all want easy answers, and just by coincidence they sometimes match up. For the past year I have been trying to limit my questions to things like what do I need to do, what do I need to know, thinking Id follow the adice and Yi would get me where I needed to be. But then I couldnt understand why I still kept getting kicked in the teeth. In actuality I was still looking for Yi to get me where I wanted to be, not where I needed to be. It occurred to me today that pain is part of life, and sometimes going through something, even something really hard, teaches us a valuable lesson. We grow mostly through the hard times, not the easy ones. And we learn best from experience. Telling a child they will get burned if they touch the stove does not make near as much of an impression as if they touch it and burn their hand. And thats for a physical lesson; unfortunately emotional and psychological lessons take longer to learn.

I read an article recently that said humans cannot be compared to rats psychologically. If you put a rat in a maze, it turns left and gets cheese, right it gets a shock, after a few tries it will always choose left. Humans, however, have free will and an uncanny predisposition for self destruction. They will continue to go right, to prove a point, to show no one controls them, because they think they will somehow get around it, whatever. Point is, it will take much longer for the human to learn the lesson.

My understanding of the oriental philosphy, which Yi comes from, is that the goal is to be whole as an individual. You are a healthy, happy, complete person when all that fulfills you comes from inside of you. If you need another person to feel happy or complete, if you fall apart because some guy or girl doesnt return your interest, then you are not operating within that philosophy. IF Yi indeed functions on that level, then when we ask for answers from Yi that are outside of that, we are working at cross purposes and the answers are bound to be confusing or appear not to apply.

Wow, Im just 49ing all over the placehttp://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif And looking at my other answer 42.1.3. My question was what should I do about this guy? My original interpretation based on the outer world was that if I made an effort everything would work out, and that something I saw as a mistake would actually bring this guy closer to me. Answer looking from the inner world and probably closer to the real answer: "well child, you should rouse yourself to begin great efforts to work on yourself and despite slim resources you will become a whole and happy person. This was an unfortunate mistake, but what you learn from it will bring you closer to a true spiritual connection with yourself, the universe, and with me." I got an answer, and in a roundabout way it was to the question I asked. It just wasnt the answer I was looking for.

So, if my theory is correct, the bad news is Yi is not a fortune teller and will not tell you whether or not things will work out with prince seemingly charming, but probably just a big rat trying to get his cheese (ok, so maybe still some guy issues to work onhttp://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif). The good news is the answers will help you to learn about yourself and help you to become a whole and happy person, which in the end will make you desirabale to the real prince charming if that is still what you want.

Bad news for me, I am so far from the end of the tunnel that the light is but a pinprick.

pakua

January 16th, 2006, 09:27 PM

Yes I see the point you're making Seeker, Yi speaks to the inner world, and sometimes you see it reflected in the outer.

My only (only?) problem is how to tell the difference between fantasy and reality. Because it seems so accurate so often, and then suddenly it is not, what is the sign that tells you "this is different", you have now entered fantasy.

lightofdarkness

January 17th, 2006, 01:14 AM

The structure of the IC reflects the structure of the neurology in its categorisations. The structure of the neurology reflects the adaptation of neuron-dependent life to the universe. IOW our maps will 'fit' the universe well since we have internalised the basic mechanisms of that universe - differentiating/integrating (represented in the IC as yang/yin)

This feeds into the development of consciousness - see http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/symmetry.html

With consciousness comes the precision and ability to IMAGINE contexts that we may need to adapt-to PRIOR to actually experiencing them. This can cause 'issues' where fact and fiction can merge into a hybrid ontology - maya at work.

pakua

January 17th, 2006, 01:44 PM

Maya certainly can cause 'issues' - lol - especially when there's more fiction than fact.

bruce

January 17th, 2006, 02:13 PM

Pakua, very true.

When 'fact' is disseminated, what remains? Our thoughts are what gathers things together, so fact and fiction may not be so clearly determined as we imagine. That?s where Yi comes in handily, and why the world of Yi resides more inside than out. Maya is our friend, once you get to know her well enough, but she has a strange way of morphing, in order to trick you. Yi is impartial to it, not distinguishing one from the other. That is left to our conscious mind to sort out; as disturbing as that sometimes may be.

lightofdarkness

January 17th, 2006, 04:01 PM

... and so the need to understand what is behind expressions and learn discernment when dealing with our hybrid reality.

The XOR material is indicating the presence of 'best fit' properties and methods for each hexagram and so the 'hard coding' of stimulus/response dynamics that we can learn and so discern. These are GENERAL dynamics where LOCAL context can hide them with embelishments but understanding the general 'vibe' so one can be aware of their presence and know their flow. THEN comes the choices of (a) adapting to the context or (b) try and replace the context with one of one's own making or (c) move on.

Neurologically, context 'pushes' our buttons and we respond. The IC can be used to determine what is pushing one's buttons and then respond in a manner best suited to one's current state/position or intended state.

IOW consciousness appears to be a mutation and as such there is no, was no, 'plan' as such - BUT with consciousness we move into a position of being proactive but with that is a price - the issues with maya. BUT with consciousness also comes the ability to map-out the possible states and so make more discernments, better choices, detect what is behind expressions, their intent etc and so work in dealing with maya...

Once you have a map of local or universal dynamics so you can pre-empt etc where the pre-emption includes consciousness as an agent of mediation.

This is all 'new' in that we get a better insight into our workings as a species and as conscious individuals but in doing so have to 're-configure' some old perspectives.

martin

January 17th, 2006, 10:22 PM

Yeah, well, you really are a thinking type, apparently. I understand what you say but personally I really don't need algebra to perceive the general or not so general vibes that emanate from people, dogs, situations, aliens or whatever. I FEEL these vibes and then I understand. And I also do not need algebra to figure out what I will do next. The way shows itself, no analysis or "strategical" considerations involved.

Of course I have a thinking mind the size of a planet (as Marvin said http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif) but I am basically a feeling type. First feel then think.
IDM is not of much use to me, I guess, or is it?

lightofdarkness

January 18th, 2006, 02:17 AM

If you have gone through the ICPlus material then you would have done the PROACTIVE I Ching questions method. That method combines thinking with feeling in that the core qualities focused upon from an IDM perspective are feelings of blending, bonding, bounding, and binding where those are accessed through the formats of the questions.

Note that the methodology of questions includes allowing for a focus on one's feelings about one's position in the current context. FROM that the system comes up with the hexagram describing the context. From that, through XOR we can flesh-out the full spectrum of that context and so determine what WE would like to do - adapt, replace, or move on.

IOW through the ICPlus questions we access our species-nature aspects (with their more emotional elements) that feed our consciousness-nature.

Thus given a vague vibe of the context, the whole, we can use consciousness to get details. We cannot use consciousness to get the 'vibe' since consciousness is too differentiating when the vibe comes from integrating.

(see the XOR/AND dynamics in their paradox-processing where we can experience the issues of the differentiating not dealing with complex patterns : http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/paradox.html )

So - to REFINE our 'vibe' nature (the instincts/habits at work in a holistic, organic, manner) we use consciousness to flesh-out details.

To reveal all of this has required thinking as well as feeling. For references etc on the work on links of basic emotions etc to ICPlus (or more so IDM but the labels just need to be changed) see http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/emote.html

The development of the brain has passed through the use of parallel processing (instinctive emotional stimulus/response) and into the more precise but delay-oriented dynamics of serial processing where frontal lobe areas act to suppress the emotions to allow for the acquiring of more data etc IOW the realm of the rational works off 'controlling' the emotions where we can get a better perspective on the 'vibe' ;-)

There is no need to understand algebra, there is a need for an understanding of basic feelings that are then labelled and refined through thinking etc. The best representation format is through the binary where the use of logic operators is easy to do (and learn).

BTW - if you are Marvin-oriented then watch out for the depression! ;-)

Chris.