Hexagram 32.1.2.6 changing to 30 - please help with interpretation...

[magdalena]

Does anyone have any experience with hexagram 32.1.2.6 changing to 30 with regards to a relationship question? The question was "Should I leave X?" (I do love him but I am finding it very hard at the moment to communicate with him, feel trapped and feel that we are starting to drift apart)

Please please help.

[frank]

Hi Magdalena,

32 Has something to do with duration in the long run, and steady progress. But probably is the Yi asking something back at you as 30, the other hexagram is about attachements, and the Yi is asking why you are together in the first place. What is the attachment towards each other, and to get to that answer read lines 1,2 & 6. As I read those lines as YANG lines and the NON changing lines as YIn you then get hexagram 54... probably there is someone not very happy with the restrictions in the bond, and is confronted with limitations in handling...

Line 1 has, in my view here also something to do with instincts, and by dealing with them you go from hex. 32 to 34... Keep your powers limited to a certain limit so you can handle them. Is there no equality in the communication or is some of you more dominant in the relationship? Then the Yi is probably saying that the one who is more dominant should sacrifice some energy (34)...

If line 2 changes (of 32) you then get 62... So there is something about limitations in doing things again, after the 34 in instincts on line 1, it's more feeling insite at line 2... The difference between line 1 and 2 is that 1 is about instincts we all have, so more about something in commen with others and adviced to handle it better, as the line goes from yin to yang, at line 2 it is about something especially of yourself, as 2 is personal emotions and feelings, and by changing that into 62,the Yi is asking to limit those emotions first before you move...

Line 6 is about the upper knowledge in all of us, as we have standards and ways of behaviour like everyone else. You do not robe a bank, steal from people or hit a child, etc (I hope...) Those are standards and values... Perhaps line 6 is about your standards and values within the relationship and the Yi is asking you to look at them, as you are probably wandering 'what others would say about it', and that is making you doubtfull. By changing line 6 of 32 (only!) you get hex. 50... The Cauldron. The Cauldron could be the symbolising the relationship you want to have...

The Chinese characters of 32 and 30 are about 'getting things done in the long run' and 'wanting to go, but afraid too...' respectfully. So there is something about the nerve to do so, too...

I hope I made some sense what so ever.

Hang in there,

Hug.
Frank

[magdalena]

Frank, this is amazing. Very accurate indeed. I'm not happy with the restrictions in the bond (I'm currently studying hard and will be for the next two years and I find it so hard to concentrate on my studying and having to look after his two kids who stay with us every weekend). There are also communication problems at the moment, he's been hurt in his marriage so is afraid to show me the love I so crave and I get more and more detached as a result of it so we are in a viscious circle here. There is also a lot of truth in "wanting to go but afraid to"... I still deep down hope for a miracle to happen so that we both feel happy and fullfilled together, for some walls and inhibitions to come down...

What in your view is the answer to my question though?

[void]

Hi, over the years when I've had 32,1 its meant it really isn't time to make a decision, to try and fix things in a permanent way. I get it often at times I think I have a solution to something and want to implement it immediately, with too much haste. In retrospect I'm always glad I waited awhile, even if things look unsatisfactory and no progress seems to be occurring, because eventually a better solution is found.

Overall I think your reading could be read as not trying to force a solution at this time, and 32,6 'calm down and stop fretting'. Perhaps you are placing a sense of urgency on yourself at the moment which is not really necessary - there is plenty of time to think, it may be best just to let things be for a while. Solutions will then appear when you are not stressing so much.

So I think in answer to your question its not a great idea to leave as its actually a precipitous act.

(I guess its just possible also its referring to the past, if you feel now you rushed into the relationship too quickly. However you did not ask about the past so I presume it refers to your current situation.)

However I could be totally wrong, thats just the way I see it, so please just take it as an opinion among many. If you get calm within probably you will know in your heart what you want.

[frank]

Hi Magdalena,

First I think I already gave you some kind of answer in my first post on that question of yours...'What in your view is the answer to my question though?'..... Try to look at, and beyond those attachments... But let me try this one...

32 is about a duration... a bond... a long bond... To hold that to the end, work is to be done. I'm still convinced that romance should be a very important part in the relationship but as it is 2006 already there will be at least NO knights on a white horse... well, at least in a white Volvo or so... :-D, but... these days people are more looking at the money, at safety, at peace in the house, peace in the bank-account, peace in the job, and less about 'do we realy like each other'... They are not very amuzed by the idea that getting a bond in the long run is actually hard work... No, they want there dreamdate brought to them on a diner-plate :-D (yes, please). But to my own frustrations too.... IT DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY... so... 32 is about how it is working then...

"Constancy... a sacreficial OFFERING..., no inauspicious omen. Profit the divination. Advantageous to have a place to go to". (translation Wu Jingnuan)

There is talk about sacrifice... Well, you sacrificed time, energy, money and concentration (and perhaps a headache or two...) on dealing with your own things as the study and being in a relationship with a man and two children (man, that's tough... yes, it is tough... I do not deny that :-D. IT IS TOUGH. BUT...) The Yi is actualy saying here that you are already doing a great job, in giving sacrifices and hold on to a goal ('a place to go'). As this was a question about leaving a bond with someone the Yi is talking back at you by saying... hee girly, I know it's tough and about sacrifices, but what is your maingoal here? Where do YOU, or you both in the relationship want to go for?... By remembering your goal for yourself or for you both new energy starts to come back again to work on those goals, instead of the details who are actualy roadblocks on the way towards the goal... They are 'just challenges'... They keep you awake by asking yourself over and over again...'where I'm I, or are we standing here... and now... where are we?'And by looking to the goal instead of walking away from it you will get perhaps a better communication as that is actually the reason why you want to leave anyway...

Line 1 is warning you for being to much busy with the details...:'Digging constantly, divination: misfortune. No place is profitable". Line 1 is taking you to hex. 34... Keep your instincts and low wishes in control... Do not go for the details, but for the long run... as the image of 34 says: 'so the noble one does not go following roads that are in a contrast to the order'...

Line 2 then will teach you patience... and 'Regrets vanish'... (it will take you to hex. 62... low nest... no high goals... stay low... Do not look to far, the solution is already there... in front of you...)

Line 6 then is again warning you no let go the anxieties in the head, as the upper two are about heaven-lines, and connected to the head, and the way we are thinking... "Shaking constantly. Misfortune"...

I do not think that this is about 32 now, and 30 later... somehow at least lines 1 & 6 already are moving NOW... Digging and Shaking is something you are already doing... So perhaps some regrets are already vanishing these days?

You know... The Yi is also very good for contemplation... meditating on different levels in a way like 'supose if...' Well, supose line 2 was not in order... you had only lines 1 & 6... then by making changing lines YANG... you get hexagram 27... The hexagram about nourishment between two people, and again the question back at you: "What is the attachments, nouirshments and that what connects you both"...??

BUT that's not the case, as line 2 IS involved, and by changing then the changing lines into YANG you get 41.... Increase. You are not confronted with limitations on nourishment but just with confrontations.. period.... it is not about HOW you get confrontations... it is that you DO get them, and the Yi is telling you how to deal with them. Is it just you or you're thing to run away when you are confronted with something? Well, the Yi is just letting you know then that that's the easy part... You have to learn the tough part :-D! Do NOT run away from it... This is a great opportunity for you to learn and get over anxieties, and deal with confronations, and not running away from them, but ON THE LONG RUN, deal with them, become friends with them, as they do just belong to your way of life, to your life at all, period, and it's ok to have them... So I guess, by looking at this answer, and by looking deeper and longer, this is way beyond the question you asked in the first place already... But that's the Yi alright... And you did not get 32 for nothing... 'Learn how do dig (wind) and not get frightned (thunder)'... Then at least you will find out why the sun is shining anyway (30, two times fire, the sun...)....

And now I end this again hoping that I made some sense of this peace of <bleep> :-D...

I realy should start making money out of this... (sigh :-D)...

Hug,
Frank

[bruce]

LOL, Frank, people are much fussier, critical and demanding if they pay. Keep your day gig, man. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif

[bruce]

Btw, that wasn't meant as a commentary on your interpretations, which I think are quite good.

[frank]

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

[magdalena]

Ok, ok I get the picture!

Frank, you know, you really should start making money out of this. This really is good stuff. Gosh how more spot on can it get... Re: your comment on 32, I'm currently right in the middle of realising "THAT IT DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY" indeed. I've stopped accepting any financial help from him although it's tough hoping that we manage to break some bad habits of his here as he is used to compensate for his lack of emotional support by giving money/presents etc. Lack of patience and overanalysing that's definitely my domain as well as is running away from problems (in relationships I'm always the one who leaves). Well, if this relationship is the one I'm supposed to be learning from the Yi has really picked a good one to practice my patience on as the situation is as hard as it gets (full-time study... not just study, medical study!, the kids who are just turning into teenagers and a boyfriend who has emotional baggage the size of London). IT REALLY IS AS TOUGH AS IT GETS. But I humbly accept your advice and will try to go through it as well as I can hoping to see the light at the end of the tunnel eventually.

Void, many thanks for your comment as well, which also confirms what Frank is saying.

Thank God for this website.

Good luck to me.

[jesed]

Hi Magdalena

"Should I leave X?"

Answer: "Thus the superior man stands firm and does not change his direction"

Leaving him is "change your direction".. so: don't do it

Best wishes

[bruce]

Unless Magdalena's prior direction was to leave. In which case, leaving is standing firm in her direction.

In either case, any time you allow Yi to make your decision for you, you are risking losing "your" direction.

[jesed]

Hi Bruce

yes, I know you have an issue with that ("my decision")... and is ok. Again, we are seeing diferents things behind the same words.. and having the same jugement at the end.

According with traditional teachings, there is a Naural path of the Cosmos (and natural path is not the same than "moral"). Even "Heaven" and "God" corresponds to Natural Path; of course, men and women do the same.

But everything CAN follow that Natural Path or not follow it; of course, it means men and women can follow or not follow the Natural path. Even more, one can follow the Natural path by own's decision but also can follow Natural path without own's decision.

The most important use of Yi Jing, according with traditional teachings, is to know the Natural path of any situation in order to adapt own's decisions with Natural path. Not because a moral obligation, but because a practical interest: if I follow the Natural path of this situation, i can achieve a better outcome.

So, when the answer of Yi Jing is an advice, is not a moral advice, but a practical advice: "the Natural path of this situation leads to.... so the best thing to do in order to act according with the Natural path is....".

This doesn't means that Yijing decides instead of you. You always decide (follow the advice, or not follow the advice). The use of Yi Jing is allows us to make better decisions. We always do the decision.

In this case, is not that Yi Jing decide instead of Magdalena. Is only the advice that the decision wich corresponds better to the Natural path of her situation is not changing her way. She, after knowing this, have the chance and the necesity to take her own's decision.

And of course, if magdalena had already made a decision (leave X), is pointless to consult the Yijing. And even so, the question is not "what do you think about my decision" but about his matrimonial sitution. So the answer is not about an idea but a matrimonial situation.

(To avoid misunderstandings; I'm not saying that every time the solution is "not leave". I'm not against divorce. Actually, I had suggest divorce to people many times. Is only this particular reading).

Best wishes

[jesed]

ps.
maybe an analogy:

If an electrical machine incluedes the advice: "Don't touch the cables when working", is not that the machine decides instead of you that you shouldn't touch the cable.

Is just the practical consecuence of the natural path in this situation: the nature of electricity, the nature of conductivity of the cable and the nature of our body would lead to an electroshock if you touch the cable when the machin is working.

But, in the end, is your choise

[bruce]

Hi Magdalene,

For what it?s worth, I?m seeing this whole thing a bit differently.

Rather than Yi ?telling? you the ?right? thing to do, I see this reading advising the way to attain an enduring state of mind, with steady personal principles, from which your own decision can be made with greater clarity (30).

This is your life. Not Yi?s and not any interpreter?s view of what is indisputably right.

You might try looking at the lines in this light.

Line 1: A hasty decision creates nagging doubt later.
Line 2: Let go of past regrets, and take a fresh look.
Line 6: Calm down! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

30 is the desired end and the means by which to achieve it.

[bruce]

Hi Jesed,

My issue, as you call it, is in rigid interpretations. The lowest form a relationship between heaven and earth can have is that of master/servant, IE: Moses and the tablets of commandments. For someone who must be told the right thing to do, this type of relationship is better than no relationship. But it is a poor substitute for a relationship which lives according to personal values, freedoms and choices.

[jesed]

In your last post... attain a enduring state of mind ios presented as "the right thing" to make a decision, right? ;)

[bruce]

What are you arguing, Jesed? http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/howmuch.gif An enduring state of mind is a condition, which is expressed in 32.

[jesed]

Hi bruce

I'll try to explain myself better.

Of course, I'm not saying that "enduring state of mind" is not present in 32

Is not about this, but about "advice" "right thing to do" etc

In the way I understand the reading (and I'm not saying that is the only way to do that), the advice is "not change your matrimonial situation"

You said a)that would be "Yi saying the best thing to do" b) Yi doesn't say the best thing to do and c) Yi is "advising the way to attain an enduring state of mind, with steady personal principles, from which your own decision can be made with greater clarity"

I won't contradict that attain an enduring state of mind is a good advice.

But, if this is an "advice" from Yi, that would be Yi saying that the right thing to do is attain an enduring state of mind, with steady personal principles, from which magdalena's own decision can be made with greater clarity

And then, you could say again that it is not correct, because Yi doesn't see the right thing to do http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

That's all. At the end, let's magdalena use what it could be useful for her

[bruce]

Ah, but, matrimony to whom or what? Her boyfriend? Her fears? Her false sense of obligation? Her doubts? Or - her own steady balance and presence of heart and mind?

According to you, Jesed: ?Answer: "Thus the superior man stands firm and does not change his direction. Leaving him is "change your direction".. so: don't do it.?

What if a woman received this same reading who was involved in a horribly abusive relationship? Would your definitive Answer stay? If not, then the answer isn?t as definitive as you make it sound. If so? well, I?d rather not answer that.

[jesed]

well....
a) I had never find Yi jing answer 32 as an advice about abusive relationships.
b) I do had find Yi Jing answer as advice to quite abusive relationships (most of the time with 23, 33 and 40 and 64), or controling the abuse (most of the time with 9 and 60)
c) I doubt that I'll ever find Yi Jing answer with 32 as advice related to abusive relationships
d) If ever happen that speculative hipotesis, I'll post here the way I understand that reading

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[bruce]

Well, we have diverged to theoretical discussion here, Jesed. But if you can't answer my question directly, I understand. Give it another thirty years. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

[jesed]

Bruce

The question was theoretical, and was your question:
"What if a woman received this same reading who was involved in a horribly abusive relationship? Would your definitive Answer stay?"

I was "polite" in my answer.

Straight answer: This hipotetical case (a woman received this same reading who was involved in a horribly abusive relationship) won't happen.

[jesed]

of course, if I'm wrong, and actually happen that a woman involve in a horribly abusive relationnship receive this same reading, I'll come to the forum to acept my error

[jesed]

ps. why 30 years? why not 15 or 60?

[jesed]

Hi Bruce

I think i had misundertand your last post.

To avoid misundertandings.

If the "direct answer" you want wasn't to the hipotetical question, but to the the first
"Ah, but, matrimony to whom or what? Her boyfriend? Her fears? Her false sense of obligation? Her doubts? Or - her own steady balance and presence of heart and mind? "

I had find useful (not theoreticaly but empiricaly) to understand the answer at the light of the question (am I crazy for doing that?)

And the question wasn't about leave her fears, her "false sense of obligation", her doubts neither her own steady balance and presence of heart and mind. The question was about leave her boyriend.

So, I read it as leave her boyfriend.

[bruce]

LOL, 30 sounds like a good number.

But seriously, Jesed, not to be snide or such, 30 years ago my way of seeing these things was so much like yours it's spooky. I've made a lot of poor decisions following what I saw as the letter of the law in Yi, and it's taken a long time to get it through my cabeza that Yi is far more fluid and subtle than I had previously thought.

30 years from now I'll likely be over yonder, but if I can, I'll be sure to swing by the forum and check out your translations. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif

[micheline]

well, Jesed and Bruce, interestingly enough, I recently had a friend ask me to do a Yi reading about an unhappy relationship of sorts. She wanted to know if it was "her destiny" to endure the things which were so bothersome to her now.

I dont feel it is anybody's "destiny" to endure unhappiness, but I kept quiet and asked the Yi for her. The answer was 32.2.3.4 to 2. At first glance, I was alarmed and startled. It sure seemed like a reading that said "yes, this condition needs to endure -32 as a destiny- 2."

The I looked at Lise's site and suddenly a whole new understanding emerged. This woman's condition WOULD endure if she were to keep wavering and losing sight of her goals. she cant blame the field if there seems no way out, she has to blame the unsteadiness of her own heart. even with line 2, it meant that she needed to keep steady in order for her regrets to vanish. She is being passive to a way of life (that doesnt happen to suit her), and it will continue unless she steadies the helm of her heart and follows her inner compass.

magdelena's lines were different. In magdelena's case, I suspect the reading is saying that in her heart she does not WANT to go....I wouldnt read it as advice NOT to go....even if her relationship was terribly wrong and abusive, this reading would not be saying "don't go"....it is simply saying that the condition subsists because this is where she has chosen to endure/stay/ subsist. she is in a synergystic relationship here, where for reasons good or bad, she is involved and interacting. 30.

If I were magdelena, understanding it this way is key. I would ask myself why I am choosing to stay and make peace with that...OR...decide to be more honest, perhaps, about what I really want and then move accordingly. The reading is simply reflecting her current choice. Maybe, in all honesty, she just wants to stay regardless of how hard it is. And that's okay! BUt the Yi is not telling her to do either, IMO.

[jesed]

Hi Bruce

I'm sorry that you had make poor decisions by following what you saw as the letter of the law in Yi. (And I'm glad that your interpretation hd been improved since.)

But, that first statement suggest me that your path 30 year ago wasn't too similar to my actual path as you believe. Honestly, the last 31 years I had never find that I made a poor decision after interpreting a consult for myself.

best wishes

[bruce]

Jesed, you began consulting Yi at birth? LOL

Anyway, I wish you the best in all things.

Magdalena too.

[jesed]

Bruce...

you believe "Age 31" in profile is 31 since birth?

hadn't ever hear about the "age" as the time of being studying?

[jesed]

Hi Micheline

Interesting answer... and more interesting understanding

[martin]

This may be subjective but I don't see hex 32, taken as an advice, as simply "stay" or "continue".
The image is that of a tree that grows new branches. This suggests that something continues by renewing itself.
Renewal is essential, there have to be changes, the old ways and habits will not do.

I think that line 1 and 6 can be interpreted in this way sometimes. They not only talk about continuing too long or at any price, but also about efforts to continue without changing things.

[jesed]

Hi martin

Completely agree with you

I like the way Wilhelm say the same opinion:

"Duration is rather the self-contained and therefore self-renewing movement of an organized, firmly integrated whole"

[bruce]

Hi Micheline,

You make excellent points, and for the most part I agree with what you've said. It does come down to making her own decision based on her own wishes for her own life. Steady character and a clear mind works to her best advantage, but it's always her choice.

[martin]

Re the Yi and "telling you what to do", I like to think of the Yi (and this is no doubt subjective again http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif) as a nondirective counselor a la Rogers.
Such counselors rarely say "do this" or "don't do that". Instead they give some hints and suggestions or just mirror your words and behavior back to you and let you figure it out for yourself.

"yes yes, but WHAT should I DO??"
"what do you feel when you say DO?"
"iiiiiiiiiii!"
"could you rephrase that?"
........

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

[micheline]

agree with martin also....But jesed, you have already said that you felt it the response was saying to STAY!


another way of stating the intepretation:

should I leave the boyfriend?

Yi: I will not tell you yes or no...but I will point out what is going on here. You have actually chosen to stay, but you are not at peace with your own choice. You are causing yourself unhappiness by this lack of peace with your decision. Consider that you are here with this man because there is a synergy of some kind... You are both getting something out of staying together ( even though it may not be what you want)

[jesed]

Hi micheline

yes, that's the way i readed the answer... and I still do

a) That doesn't contradict my agreement with martin, because I didn't say "stay without change anything"...and I still don't say "saty without change nothing". (I notice that in your cases, seems the only chances are "stay in the same that you are" or "leave the relationship", really this last one since is your own opinion. I think the scope includes more situations).

b)Evem more. I accept the posibility that another's interpretation can be more useful for Magdalena. No problem with that

best wishes

best wishes

[void]

Phew it bugs me when people like to plant their favourite psychological theory on top of the Yi. Yi does not have a 'Rogerian' viewpoint Martin - you may have and may wish to interpret the Yi so, I don't.

I find myself agreeing with Jeseds view that the Yi does not issue moral commands as such but rather show the natural consequence of a certain course of action. And yes I actually think often it does indicate quite a stark consequence.

People always seem to want to 'psychologise' Yi according to their favourite, usually western, psychological theorist. To some extent this is inevitable, beings as we are, mostly modern westerners. But oh boy the day I come across a 'Rogerian I Ching' http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/rant.gif !!!

I always thought that mirroring 'technique' if it is a 'technique' is pretty ineffectual and I don't think its what the Yi does at all.

[lightofdarkness]

The properties and methods of the IC are such that they reflect the properties and methods of our brains and so the IC can reflect 'all there is' - and that includes every particular psychology existing and to come.

If you stick to a traditionalist perspective on the IC, and so FORCE the distinction of west/east then you are doing yourself and the IC a huge diservice.

Give the focus on 'all there is' so this includes what was/is/will_be as well as what could have been/is not/could_be.

IOW we deal with facts, values, the real and the imagined. The TECHNIQUE used is that of the IC REFLECTING 'us' and we can work with it proactively or reactively.

So, "void", IMHO you need to get out more, try and move into the 21st century. Yes, from a traditionalist position, thast is not easy but to understand the full spectrum of the IC, and so benefit from that understanding, one needs to change every now and then - after all isnt change inevitable? ;-)

[peace]

Ok - Magdalena, another point of view. This is what I get from the lines that may "speak" to your situation.

I read 32.1 as mutual, enduring love takes time and cannot be rushed. It needs to fully expand.
(Frank - where do you get it's about instinct??)

32.2 I read as - don't attempt something which is beyond what you can deal with now - limit what you can do and be careful and conscientious.

30.6 Take it easy - if you push for closure now, you may regret it.

So - in your situation, perhaps you and your boyfriend were focusing, up until now, on the romance - and now the hard day to day of living together, with all it's difficulties and boring ordinary stuff has you thinking, "Is this all there is? What do I need this for? He has all this baggage and this kid and this house and these ISSUES. I'm a free agent. Why hitch myself to all this?"

It seems that your anxiety and maybe anger at him (for not meeting your expectations????) is getting the better of you.

Now may be the time for you to take your time, carefully and conscientiously, to decide if you really love this guy - who he is, right in front of you, with all the baggage - current and past.
Can you love him as he is - not who you thought he was, could be, may be, etc.?

And, I personally think you owe it to yourself to stay with your anxiety and calm yourself enough to really look at this. Give yourself 3 months and don't do anything.

Anyway, my two cents into the mix.
In the past I left someone and then regretted it -and it was too late. His pride got in the way of coming back. He now regrets it too - but he's remarried - unhappily, so I believe I hurt us both.

All the best,
Rosalie

[jte]

"I always thought that mirroring 'technique' if it is a 'technique' is pretty ineffectual and I don't think its what the Yi does at all."

This is a topic which could, potentially, hijack this thread. However, it's interesting, so I'll respond.

In my case, I distinctly *sometimes* find the Yi making recommendations for action, but at other times, find it "reflecting" my view/situation/feelings, etc. This depends on the interaction of the Hex/Line with the specific question I'm asking and the circumstances.

How much of this steps from the user's interpretation and how much is "what the Yi is communicating" is an open question.

In my case, I've become of the "Yi has a will/intelligence of it's own" school. So I see it as the conscious intent of what it's trying to communicate. For example, I think that possibly in cases where *the Yi* has a specific opinion it is directive. In other cases, where it doesn't have a specific intent (or perhaps "trusts me" to choose well for myself) it seems to provide more reflection than direction.

My 2 cents,

- Jeff

[void]

Yeah Jeff I agree with what you said. Like you I've become more and more of the "Yi has a will/intelligence of its own school" and I would agree there are times when the Yi certainly feels directive and times where it seems more reflective.

I think my remarks (above) were a little clumsy, not well thought out - you've actually expressed my view perfectly.

[martin]

"Phew it bugs me when people like to plant their favourite psychological theory on top of the Yi."

It often bugs me too, Void! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif. And a few weeks ago I wrote in another thread that I feel that there is way too much psychologizing going on in todays spirituality.

But I think that what Rogers and others with a similar approach do is what people (priests, healers, teachers, personal friends, ..) have done in all ages and cultures.
Instead of giving direct advice or telling you what to do they help you to explore and understand your situation or condition. And then you can decide for yourself.
This way of communicating has not much to do with our (western) psychological theories and therapeutic practices per se. Socrates also did it like that, I suppose.

And the Yi .. at least in my experience. But this is personal. We all have a somewhat different relationship with the Yi.
We also have different views about what is behind it and what or who speaks through it.
For me it is definitely a "who" nowadays and he/she has a will/intelligence of his/her own.
Yes, Jeff, I guess I belong to that same school. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[bruce]

I dunno who or what it is or where it comes from, but I can imagine many guesses. I think it is like Campbell's Hero with a Thousand Faces. Taking any one of them at "face value" once-and-for-all, loses something essential, because it eliminates the other 999 faces. So to me, it is the face of the moment.

[magdalena]

Wow, my poor head... I'm trying to digest all the different responses. If ever there was a reading where the Yi would scream out a definite answer, mine is not one of them. Better though as I am not ready to make any definitive decisions.

Your comments made me think way beyond the question though. Whenever people get to make crucial decisions in their lives and are searching for answers, the answers are often presented to them openly but they get bogged down by details and so entangled that they are not able to see it. I obviouly had this question in my head for a while and recently heard from a guy I had a serious relationship with years ago. I left him when I thought I couldn't cope any longer and he tried to get back together for years. Eventually he gave up, got engaged to someone else and is getting married. I now look back and think WHY DID I LEAVE??? Frank, Rosalie and others made me realise that it is not that hard to leave, it is so much harder to see it through and really get to the bottom of it. A true love does require a lot of patience and effort and I need to strip this relationship of any substitutions for emotional closeness before I can make my final decision.

[peace]

Good for you - and if you decide to leave after you do that....hopefully you won't look back!

Rosalie

[frank]

Hi Magdalena,

I hope everything is alright with you and that you dit NOT listen to much to people who are more busy with there own ego's from time to time when you actually starded a post where you wanted to be helped for. I hope at least that you take out the warp from the weft and that you find peace of mind in something that could 'kill you' insite your head when emotions take over the control, instead of you and your head... Believe me, I realy know what that can do to you. Hang in there, try to look beyond some things I thought would be handy to look for, but I'm not a saint and I could ofcourse be wrong... But you already responded in a way that I think I did not :-D. Again, hold on, take some deep breaths, forget about egoism and make your own desicions :-D.

Damn, now I'm sweed... :-D

Huggie,
Frank

[bruce]

Frank,

I believe everyone who posted on this thread was trying to be helpful to Magdalena. It?s not unusual, as you know, for theoretical discussions to evolve on threads initially opened for personal help. It?s what makes this site more than just a Dear Abby love-help column.

Also, standing up for what you believe, especially when it has been hard earned, shouldn?t be projected as a negative thing. It is strong personalities with strong views that make this site interesting. If it creates a little opposition once in awhile, that too can be educational for those open enough to learn from it. We are real people here, not answering machines.

[micheline]

Echoing Bruce, Frank....I thought the reading was discussed very throroughly, and nobody was faulting Magdelena or trying to impose ego on her.

I think M answered her own reading above. she wants to stay and work it through. I think in her heart she knew this even as she asked the question.

If any theorist could be likened to the voice of the YI, it would be rogers, that's for sure. His approach was based in relationship, give and take, and the creating of a space where one's personal truth could emerge.

If the Yi does "direct" I dont see it as so different from "reflecting".....I mean the reason we question the yi at all is to understand what we may not be seeing or acknowledging in ourselves and in our situation. Sometimes this is a clear resounding DIRECTion in accordance with the time.... but always it is a refection of what is currently in flux/meaningful to the moment.

The quote which pops up on clarity when you open the site says it best: "When you can really see into the present moment, all its possibilities open out before you- and you are free to create your future."

[peace]

To build on Micheline...this is from Native American culture:

Do you love yourself enough to hear the other voices speaking?

[jte]

"Sometimes this is a clear resounding DIRECTion in accordance with the time.... but always it is a refection of what is currently in flux/meaningful to the moment. "

Yes, I agree that makes sense/is a good way to describe directives when they do come...


"To build on Micheline...this is from Native American culture: Do you love yourself enough to hear the other voices speaking?"

Interesting saying, but I don't find it easy to understand. Can you explain what it means within the context of it's original culture? Maybe that will help me understand what it expresses... Thank you!

- Jeff

[frank]

Hi all,

I by no means had the intention to be harsh or something for that manner, but I was a bit anoyed as it went a bit off track. That?s all. Forfive me if your voice was not heared enough, and yes... I do love myself enough to hear the other voices speak... Do you? And to Magdalena, I wish you all the best in this. I hope we here could be of any help.

Hug,
Frank

[bruce]

Hi Jeff,

What I get from the saying is similar to Heidegger?s example of two strangers on a bridge. One decides to end his life by jumping off, and the other spontaneously grabs onto to him, giving no thought to endangering his own life by saving the man. The realization is that life is life and there?s no separation between the two men, or anyone/anything else.

[void]

Personally I would disagree with the idea that 'if Yi were a theorist it would be Rogers for sure' (near enough quote from Micheline above)


At times I feel the Yi is pretty strongly directional. It says in effect sometimes 'if you do this as proposed its not going to be good for you'. Thats fine by me, sometimes a strong answer is a great help. Like someone said above other times you kinda feel Yi saying 'its up to you'.

Overall comparing Yi to any theory of therapy is going to be a very strange thing to do - though I do see what Martin and Micheline are getting at.

For me Yi is Yi. Not like Rogers or anyone else.And if your're about to step off a cliff (figuratively) I don't think a 'hmm maybe its up to you' response is especially helpful.

In therapy there are serious power issues so normally is not seen as desirable to be too directional especially in so called 'humanistic/rogerian' type therapy, or any other I believe - since then the therapist is holding too much power over a maybe vulnerable client.

However fortunately the Yi is not a therapist and I am not its client. As you may guess I have grave doubts about therapy and the 'therapeutic' relationship thus I pull away strongly when I see psycho- theory stuck onto/ over Yi or worse attributed to Yi.

Its just a view I wished to express, I'd loathe to see the voice of the Yi muffled up into all that 'I'm OK Your OK..and everythings fine if we just talk about it..type of stuff...sure that stuff has its value, but I feel Yi is Yi apart from that.

Still not especially well expressed (sigh) but I guess you get my drift, and I realise its a bit of a rant so I'll button up now.

Frank threads do often wander off into discussion of other things, I'm not aware that its wrong to do so, especially if the querents original question has already been attended to. I'm not sure why you're annoyed, theres no rules I know of that a thread shall take a particular route - or have you been appointed 'route master' http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[martin]

I think I understand what you are saying, Void. And I have doubts about the value of therapy myself.
I see all too often that therapists are directly or indirectly forcing clients to accept their limited view of how things ought to be and project their own issues on them. This also happens in socalled nondirective therapies but then in more hidden ways.

"However fortunately the Yi is not a therapist and I am not its client."

Same for me. I see the Yi more as a friend. Albeit a wise friend.
If I want to jump off a bridge such a friend might say "But wait a moment, do you realize that you will get wet?"
Is that directive? Think so! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

[bruce]

I think a lot has to do with personalities: thinkers, feelers, etc. Certainly the Yi deals on psychological levels, albeit more confrontational than our modern day shrinks might be, but not so different from the Zen master?s whack across our back with his staff. Ouch! It can change our way of looking at something in ourselves, and that changes our immediate psychological state, which opens us to see things outside ourselves differently.

The big difference as I see it is, understanding in our head and understanding down into our heart or gut. It?s said that the longest mile is the distance from our head to our heart. Interpreting Yi strictly on a rational level is ?about? something or other. Interpreting from the heart/gut ?is? what it speaks. There?s no way I know of to speed this process, other than to live the theoretical long enough so that it makes its way into our body/soul experience, our very fiber. There are rare individuals who possess this early in life, but they indeed are rare.

It?s a shame, imo, that our culture lacks appreciation for elders who have lived it and who can impart it, saving the younger noble years of fumbling through texts and reasons to feed their already overstuffed heads.

Oh, and by all means let?s remain polite and tidy. God forbid some arrogant young dragon takes a whack on his sturdy back, and offends his finer sensibilities. We are indeed a generation of impudent wimps because of it. And, yes, I include myself in that group.

[bruce]

And, no, nobody peed in my cheerios this morning. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/lol.gif

[lightangel]

Lol!!
What an impudent wimp you are! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

[frank]

Wow, I did not know MY threads are OFTEN WANDER OFF... Realy, I do??? Geee, Then I shutt up immidiatly. Sofar I thought I saw this forum as a Yi forum, and I was just trying to express what I saw in Yi answers, but maybe I bring on to long letters then, which could give people ideas that MY posts USUALY wander off... Thanks for that insite. I shall be sweet, and need a good spanky, and further on I will NEVER say again that I'm anoyed or have doubts or ask questions, etc... I might hurt someone... Geee...

Still: Hug.
Frank

[lightangel]

Frank,

I don't think anybody said your threads wander off. They said that most threads do and that this is only natural because they are conversations, not Q&amp;A sessions. And I agree with them in that this is an asset to this site: the diversity of opinions and the ease with which these opinions are often expressed.

So, relax and enjoy the ride! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[bruce]

a spanky, THEN a huggie.

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/lol.gif omg, what a group!

[lightangel]

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/lol.gif

[frank]

Great... just a misunderstanding then... Please continue http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/zen2.gif

[magdalena]

Frank, re: your earlier comment about other peoples egos, I found the thread of tremendous help, I always do but this one was especially great and informative and some of the comments really touched the right buttons. These open discussions are fantastic, I really enjoy reading them, and it makes it all the more interesting.

In fact I don’t know what I would do without this site… http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/smooch.gif

[jesed]

Hi Magdalena

I know that your situation isn't easy. maybe you had notice that, in important issues, I suggest a "dialogue" with the Yi, from the most general to the concrete doubts. because, manytimes, the more concrete doubts ("should I leave him?") find
clariy when we put the in the whole context of our life.

So, in case this technique could be useful for you, I suggest you the following dialogue (Follow this questions in this order. First question/understand first question/second question keeping in mind the first answer/undertand second question at the light
of the first..and so on)

1.- General Diagnosis of the relationship between X and I

2.- Cualification of my position within the relationship between X and I

3.- Cualification of X's position within the relationship between X and I

4.- What is the best thing for me to do related to this relationship?

I hope that this dialogue will give you a clearest picture of the things that are going on in this important aspect of your life

best wishes

[magdalena]

Hello Jesed, I think that's a great idea, hopefully I won't end up with overcrowding this site with questions! I will definitely have a go, thank you so much for all your support!

[jte]

Back to the Native Am. saying for a sec...

"Do you love yourself enough to hear the other voices speaking?"

Thanks Bruce for your interpretation - it makes sense. Does that more or less match the original intent of this saying? Or does anyone know? Peace are you out there to follow up on this?

Wondering,

- Jeff

[bruce]

Hi Jeff, not really sure about the original saying Rosalie mentioned. Hadn't heard it before.

[peace]

Hi Jeff:

I heard this expression daily when I went on a Vision Quest a few years ago. I am certainly not an expert on Native American culture.
The expression was used twice each day when we sat in a "talking circle". It was a meditation at the beginning of the circle.

The idea was, that you have to have enough self-love, boundaries and flexibility to listen to what others are saying - as not to feel threatened by hearing a point of view that is new to you - that you are willing to perhaps revise your view of things, which could be major - to help you deal with reality and truth.

It helped me to gain the awareness that when I don't want to listen to something, many times I am afraid that if what I am hearing is true - I may have to change how I think about alot of things.

Just curious Jeff - what about that saying was interesting to you?

Rosalie

[bruce]

Wow, that's a great idea and philosophy.

[micheline]

It's a great quote. I would almost like to make it "Am I loving myself enough to hear the voice of others?" since self-love is often a process and not always a finished product.

I guess it can also depend on who you are interacting with, too. The thwarted communications going on of late in my large extended family give me a giggle when I read that line. It definitely requires an inner stillness of sorts to put it into practice! NOthing like a family of origin to call forth your woundedness ....to make you want to be a porcupine with earmuffs!

[jte]

Thanks Rosalie. "Just curious Jeff - what about that saying was interesting to you?"

In my case, I was wondering if maybe it had anything to do with synchronicity/omens. From what you wrote it appears it does not (although it's a valuable message prosaically as well).

Still curious - is it an actual Native American saying, like a proverb, or was it sort of created for the Vision Quest? (Or do you know for sure either way?)

Also curious, if you'd like to tell us about your Vision Quest, I'd be happy to hear about it. (And yes if you agree to, I really will be dragging this thread off topic. Rest assured, I'll be tossing and turning in bed tonight, riddled with guilt! =) ).

- Jeff

[magdalena]

Yes, and hauted by me http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/vexed.gif
:-)

[peace]

Hi Jeff:

I do know the quote is Native American - or so they told us.
It is generally used in the talking circles - and there is a "talking stick" which the person who is speaking holds while they speak. This stick gets passed from person to person when they share experiences or have something to say to others.

The purpose of the Vision Quest, as I understand it, is to participate in a meaningful ritual to while one transitions from one stage to another stage in life. The thinking is that those of us in Western cultures no longer have that. An example would be puberty ceremonies in Africa, etc.
We tend to drink ourselves into oblivion or something similar instead of honoring our changes in life cycles.

The Vision Quest, which I went on, was 3 weeks of hiking, living outdoors the entire time (in a national forest in Montana), sleeping under a tarp (no tents) and schlepping a 75 pound backpack wherever you went.
We had lots of Native American rituals to do beforehand and lots of ceremonies during.
It was actually very good - although much more rustic than I was used to.

The peak experience was working up to a three day fast where you were totally alone in the woods, starving to the point of hallucination, purifying your water in streams (and hoping you didn't get malaria from the filthy ponds you took the water from) - praying you wouldn't be eaten by whatever was out there and surviving the experience.

Actually, I did enjoy it - didn't get that much out of it and would never do it again. But - some of the others (there were 20 of us) said it was a high point in their life.

And...it did get me to learn alot of new things about Native Indian culture, animals, chakras and not being so modest.

There's lots of literature on the web also.

Are you thinking of doing one??

Rosalie

[jte]

Thanks, that's interesting. From your description it sounds like a great experience but not as life-altering as one might hope.

No I don't think I would do it as it sounds like its "for the young" in terms of how much roughing it one would have to do. Also, generally I am not into seeking out new major mysteries in life - the I Ching has turned out to be enough of one in my case.

- Jeff

P.S. Magdalena: :-P :-) (just kidding, too) - J.