Question about a crime

[soshin]

Long time no post here, probably someone could remeber me? :)

Ususally I am not that much of a mystery-monger, but because the topic is extremely delicate I have to be very vague. But I hope one can get the Idea nevertheless.

The question is hard to understand without revealing anything, so I try to be as vague as possible and as specific as necessary.

So here it goes:

I have been the witness of a severe crime, done to a person which I do not know personally. Let's say, I have a physical proof of that crime. The victim cannot speak for himself out of various reasons, mostly psychological ones.

I am reasoning now if it would be sensible and the "right thing to do" to report that crime. If it sounds illogical why I even have to reason about reporting or not, there are extremely good reasons for both possible ways: To report or not.

So I asked three questions:

What should be my general approach to that case:

34 second and fourth line changing to 36

It truly is a "Darkening of the Light", that is perfectly true. The case in question is really sad. I should not use to much of "power" in trying to bring light into this case, but I should try to stay centered (2nd) and can trust that the case could be solved (the fence breaks open, regrets dissappear). This is an outline of what I have got from the first reading.

Plesase describe the Dao wich will be generated by reporting it to law enforcement?

7, The Army

It woud need "a strong man" to cope with the task at hand.
LiSe wrote about The Army: ". Have the guts to act worthy of yourself. Then you can defend your territory and make a place where you and your people are safe, happy and prospering."

So I take that something close to an encouragment, if I am the "great Man" I would be capable to cope with the problems.Reporting should be the last resource, (Wilhelm) on the other hand.

Plesase describe the Dao wich will be generated by not reporting it to law enforcement?

23 unchanging...

Certainly not a good one.

I got a little bit more from that answers than I can write here about.

May I ask what your take on it would be?

Namaste,
Soshin

P.S.: I am probbly entangled too much on the emotional leve because of the severity of the crime, by my sympathy and my pity for the victim.

[maremaria]

Hi Soshin,

Sorry for the difficult situation you have to face.


Just a thought …

Looking at your reading 34 >36 and having in mind your dilemma “to report or not report” I wonder if there will be efficient to report it anonymously. Maybe I haven’t understand the reasons you can’t report it but if you put your self in a danger do you think that your answer says to “open the door” i.e. report it but at the same time protect your light (36)“He veils his light, yet still shines”
and LiSe’s 34.4 : get a hammer instead of using your fist.

Also, in both 36 and 7 there is Earth above and Fire and Water underground.

Wilhelm 7
GROUND WATER is invisibly present within the earth. the same way the military power of a people is invisibly present in the masses. …..

Only when there's this invisible bond between government and people, so that the people are sheltered by their government as ground water is sheltered by the earth, is it possible to wage a victorious war.

Again , I’m not sure if I have understand the situation correct so I maybe be totally wrong.:o

Good luck.
Maria

[diamanda]

I got the same impression, that it would be best to report it anonymously, and then
'hide'. 7 perhaps means let the army (law forces) take care of it. 23 doesn't sound
good at all, as you said yourself. Hope it all goes as best as possible.

[soshin]

Hi Maria,

... I wonder if there will be efficient to report it anonymously. Maybe I haven’t understand the reasons you can’t report it but if you put your self in a danger do you think that your answer says to “open the door” i.e. report it but at the same time protect your light (36)“He veils his light, yet still shines”
and LiSe’s 34.4 : get a hammer instead of using your fist.

It would fully suffice to report it anonymously. To reveal my identity would not help authorities in their investigations at all.

You are very close to the problem. I would put myself in danger reporting it non-anonymously. I can not tell here why this would put me in danger, but it definitely would. But this is only 50 percent of the problem.

Reporting successfuly (in the sense that the offender would get caught and arrested) would get the victim into troubles, not into danger, but into troubles. More out of psychological reasons. Lot of emotions involved in that case.

But after reasoning a lot about the second 50 percent I came to the conclusion that at the end of the day prayer for the victim is a good thing.

And for that other 50 percent it is all the same if I report anonymously or non anonymously.

So I will report, but anonymously.

Thank you for your take on that,

Soshin

[soshin]

I got the same impression, that it would be best to report it anonymously, and then
'hide'. 7 perhaps means let the army (law forces) take care of it. 23 doesn't sound
good at all, as you said yourself. Hope it all goes as best as possible.

Yes, Diamanda, I will do that.

Thank you

Soshin

[soshin]

... or to do your civic duty, if you're the kind of person who considers they have one. Myself, speaking personally, if the victim has no interest in reporting the crime, I'd let it be their decision, but perhaps give them my number or contact details should they change their mind and need a witness. This to me seems the wise thing to do. Beyond that, it's none of my business.

In terms of 'the right thing to do', I think we should always have a good idea of what is or is not any of our business. You were a witness, you are not the victim. The victim, for whatever reason, doesn't wish to report it, at least at the moment. Your duty as a witness is to the victim, not to the authorities. So offer your service to the victim, and do not involve yourself with the authorities, save in support of the victim's wishes. Honour the victim's wishes, in other words, and be available if they change their mind when they are feeling clearer.

I do not know the victim and I will not get access to her/him. That rules out 80% of the possible approaches to that case you mentioned in your post, I'm sorry to say... :(

I cannot offer direct support to the victim for that reason, the only way to support her/him on the physical level is to report. And on the spiritual level prayer.

But I hear what you say when you remember me that I am a free agent.

Thank you,

Soshin


We were crossposting, and you were lacking the information in this post.

[soshin]

This confirms my view that you are interfering in somebody else's business. If reporting the crime will get the victim into troubles, then you should leave it. You are making yourself feel better at the victim's expense. And then to add that 'prayer for the victim is a good thing' is very patronising. I think you should rethink your actions before you resort to some cowardly anonymous act. There you have it. Your oracle.

I do feel sorry that the tiny bits of information I can provide you with can lead to misunderstandings and wrong conclusions here. If you would know what's the problem, you wouldn't say that.

And I wonder in what way your answer may be founded in the answer of the Yi, and that's what I was asking for.

Soshin

[soshin]

if this was straightforward, you would have reported the crime when it happened and not subjected yourself to this process of deliberation. It would have been a simple act without any guile involved. But now, you have turned it into something else, and I think the real thing you should examine is why you didn't report it when it happened.

I got the evidence for the crime a few days ago. The crime has already happened at that time months ago.

I were not witnessing the crime in a face-to-face setting but I got a 101% physical evidence that it happened.

Which I will handover to the authorities tomorrow. The victim - and for very good reason I am telling you this - is definitely not able to make informed decisions (and yes, I can say that) this is part of the troubles she/he would be in when the whole thing is revealed.

But better now than later. If I am not totally wrong here, this crime will get revealed anyway. My hope is that it will get revealed asap. Chances are that it could be repeated.

I hope I made myself a little bit clearer

Soshin

[soshin]

Lol, we are x-posting all the time. Now I will wait a little for your answer.

[soshin]

I do not know what the term is in proper english, but in german you need not be a direct witness to something to be a "Zeuge".

The chain of custody as far as I am able to tell (not because I would not like to tell, but because I do simply not know it) is easily written in a few sentences on a piece of paper.

For that I would not have to reveal my identity.

Perhaps it would be less "cowardly", but as I said, my Identity does not add anything to the informations they need to get to track the offender down.

There is plenty of evidence about where, when and how (or let me say, approximately) that crime happened, the only problem is that the actors in this drama are not known.

I did not get the evidence in my job. I got it in a quite funny setting and if it weren't so sad I could laugh about how things played together to provide me with this evidence.

[soshin]

Ah, yes, in Austria it it possible to report something to the police in person while staying anonymous. This law has it setbacks because it is quite easy to backbite, but in that case it is perfect, because they can ask me whatever they want (and I might not have thought about that it would have been important) and I would be able to provide them with an answer.

Perhaps it is that how your take on the situation fits. Some evidence I would not have thought about could be important for them.

And nothing can hinder me to go into "hiding" thereafter, anyway.

So thank you, I will do it anonymously, but in person.

Soshin

[soshin]

OK, the crime did not happen in my homecountry, there will never be any court hearing here in Austria in which I can be heard. Because that crime took place on foreign soil. And I heavily doubt that the courts of the country in question will pay the flight fare for a ten-hours flight for me.

I do not know, where you are from, but if this rules about inadmissability are applicable in US law this would be sad news. But while writing those postings I surfed a little and found a perfect way to provide authorities in the US with the facts about that crime. There is a service available to report it via the internet via an email - form and as far as I got it in the ten minutes now they ask a lot of questions.

So, I am starting filling this form as well... 5 a.m., after that I will sleep well...

Soshin

P.S.: They pass it over to the FBI, the service itself seems to be founded and supported by the US government.

[listener]

Twilight,
A crime against - for instance - the elderly, the infirm, a child, would all be cases where the victim would not be able to speak for themselves. And anonymity is quite acceptable in such cases, especially if it could possibly endanger the informant.
I understand the ambivalence about reporting as well....regarding the troubles for a victim ...who could, for example, be dependent in some way upon a perpetrator.

Soshin, good luck with this. trust your intuition.

[soshin]

So WHATWAS THE PROBLEM?
I wish you would be in the same situation as I am, and then I would ask you what the problem was and you would probably know the answer.

[soshin]

Listener,

your nick is choosen well. :bows:

[soshin]

twilight,

I do not see any posting from listener here in this thread. What are you referring to?

[soshin]

*KNOCK*

YOU are telling someone not to be patronizing?

Wouldn't it have been possible for you to simply answer my question? Do you feel better now after telling me that I were a complete dork because I would be not able to follow a conversation?

You did understand that english is not my mothers tongue, did you? I do not know if you are speaking a second language or if you think that all of us should be able to express ourselves in perfect english because if english was good enough for Jesus Christ it should be good enough for anyone?

But thanks god I am not in dire need of your wonderful advices coming in this grumpy, arrogant and ungiving manner.

Conversation is over.

[jesed]

Hi Soshin

You made one mistake in this thread: contradicted the Sage twilight.

Twilight is not only a Sage ("piecemeal wisdom"), Twilight also is an expert in law ("viewer of forensic crime drama ").

BTW. At least in Mexico "witness" is anybody who make any declaration to the authority (no matter if he/she has seen directly the crime or not). And, again at least in Mexican Law, you can make declarations where you indentify yourself with the authority, but ypur personal information won't be recorded in the act.. and it is named "anonymous statement". Is not a problem of dictionaries; it is a problem of knowledge (real Law studies not TV)

Best

[soshin]

Hi, Jesed,

I did not know about his sagehood, but after checking his former postings I finally got the idea. :mischief:

Would someone please tell me what part of the conversation ( or at least what he thinks were a conversation) I missed or did not understand?

Thank you,

Soshin

(off to police)

[meng]

Hi, Soshin, it's been too long. Sorry to hear about the "pickle" you're in.

I think Maria hit the mark, regarding reporting anonymously. I'm kind of surprised 21 or 55 didn't show up in your answers, and I think that it might, by omission, let you off the hook, ethically speaking. Key words that come to my mind are equilibrium and strength. Equilibrium in not allowing the intense emotions of all concerned to sway your judgment, and strength by fortifying your inner reserve forces. I think 23 is cutting the emotional and dramatic "stuff" away, so that you can act, freely, without second guessing yourself.

Good luck with this.

Bruce

[trojan]

:

Would someone please tell me what part of the conversation ( or at least what he thinks were a conversation) I missed or did not understand?

Thank you,

Soshin

(off to police)

I think it was that you answered Listeners post, you said 'your nick is well chosen' then in the next post said you did not see any post from Listener :confused: thats all. Look back and see posts 24 and 25. Perhaps there was some kind of blip or delay in the posts appearing ?

Good luck :)

[maremaria]

Thank you for your take on that,

Soshin


You are welcome :)

Take care

[soshin]

An update:


After asking the officer of my local police station I went to "Bundeskriminalamt", which is something like the american FBI, they have their seperate department for that kind of crime. After three hours of dialogue with a very understanding lady officer they had a new file opened.

It was not only assured, but even suggested by her that I can report in perfect anonymity.

She told me in a very suggestive manner right at the start that if I would get any physical evidence of that crime, I should put it into an envelope with the file reference number she provided me with written on it and throw it into their "mailbox" at the main entrance, which I happily did.

Then I was off to a cybercafe, used that US internet report mechanism, providing them with the name of the austrian law enforcement agency, the officer's name and telephone number, just in case they would like to analyze that evidence. And of course providing them with as much information I was able to.

And analyzing it will definitely help them. I already wrote in one of my posts that I am pretty positive about the probability that they will be able to bust the perpetrator in relatively short time, because this pathetic guy did not took any precautions at all to mask both of their identities.

The only thing one cannot get out of this piece of evidence is their social security number and their surnames. I am far from being an expert in forensics, but even then I was able to track down the place where it has happened down to almost city level because there was evidence that a radio station with the name KHOP is broadcasting there.

Thats why I wrote that it would take ten hours flight to testify (there is no need anyway). I would love to vist the Golden State again but preferrably in another context.

The only sad things are that I will probably never know what happened or happens to the victim, but I will browse local news of that area in the internet, and I hope I will read something about it in forseeable future.

And that a perfidity like this, where the trust and the love of a human being is exploited in the most disgusting way happens a thousand time every day leaving the victim with massive psychological problems.

Such a crime gets a totally different meaning when you are actually witnessing it (even if indirectly). It is different from reading something in the newspaper or watching TV News. The victim gets a personality (and in that case a really likeable one) and a name.

His name is Jared.
He should be around eight years old.

And I am conviced that a kind of prayer does make a difference.

Soshin

P.S.: There is no reason to stay that vague anymore because I already did my civic duties.

[soshin]

And I asked the Yi if there is anything left for me to do for this boy and it answered with 5,5 to 11.

Guess I got it: I have peace of mind again, so it is good to walk away from it enjoy my life.

Soshin

[soshin]

but I guess a very last update is in order.

boy happier now (at least I suppose so) perpetrator in jail which is an information from early 2009 (he got 18 years if I got it right by browsing online through the local media of the town where all of this took place ). :)

over and out. ;)

[anemos]

Hi Soshin :)

Thanks for the feedback. ITs amazing that this thread isbefor 2 year, and its still very vivid in my mind.

Glad to hear the good news

take care

anemos ( ex - maremaria)