Please....help with 38.3

[jross]

Dear friends,

A few weeks ago I posted a question about a relationship problem I was having and was given some very constructive feedback. Thank you to all who contributed their thoughts.

My original question was about an ex-boyfriend who I ended it with because he was unable to commit 100% to me and our relationship ? I had been with him nearly 10 months and it had been a rather turbulent affair. Both of us were nursing broken hearts from previous relationships where we had been hurt badly. It was certainly a case of bad timing ? he did not want our relationship to end. However, I thought it best at the time for us both. The relationship finished in late August,/early September and I am still unable to move on. I am very much in love with him and he is seems to be unable to move on too,. We are not together but when we meet up we always end up in bed together. I suggested we get back together, but he says he doesn?t know what he wants anymore. Is this because I have hurt him? I cannot explain it, but there is an unbelievable pull there and I am convinced this has nothing to do with sex. Perhaps I am wrong ? maybe it?s an obsession I have, but I can?t get rid of the feeling that he is indeed ?The One?. I keep thinking we will get back together. I asked the I Ching when we first split if he was going to want me back and it came up with 8 (Holding Together) with changes at 4 and 5. I just assumed that we would get back together, but not until we were further along in our lives or is he just using me because he has no-one else. This whole thing is making me sick and destroying my life, as I just want us to work things out.

So, last night I threw the coins again and asked it if he did indeed love me and was he the One. It came up with 38 (Opposition) changing at 38.3 ? can anyone give me a reading on this. I see it as we both have differences right now, but further down the line we will eventually work them out and return to one another. I cannot bear to be hurt anymore. Am deluding myself or is it that I don?t want to see the truth and there is no future between us. Please help me and honesty is always the best policy.

Thank you kindly.





Minnie

[bradford_h]

Sorry Minnie, but the only thing clearer than 38.3 here is how much you don't want to look at it. I'm sure someone here will be newage enough to turn this around for you and make it all sweetness and light, but my advice is: Turn your little wagon around and go down a different road.

[dobro]

Hi Minnie. I'm thinking that there are two things you might usefully hear from me.

The first is that in answer to your question, the Yi's telling you this: the whole situation has come to a screeching halt, it involves some humiliation of some sort, and you can't bring it to an end right away. He ain't the one, in other words.

Also, this -

"I cannot explain it, but there is an unbelievable pull there and I am convinced this has nothing to do with sex. Perhaps I am wrong ? maybe it?s an obsession I have, but I can?t get rid of the feeling that he is indeed ?The One?."

I believe you - I believe there's an unbelievable pull, and I believe that you feel he's the one. But just because those feelings are happening doesn't mean it's good for you. People get attracted to other people all the time. Sometimes it's good and it fits; sometimes it's bad and people are attracted to the wrong person - it happens every day.

But it's your call whether you believe the Yi or whether you believe the strong feelings you're experiencing. Sometimes a person gives a feeling more credence because it's strong. Not me. Strong feelings just make me feel more out of control than I usually am lol. If I'd given in to every feeling of strong attraction I've had, I would have lost my job and my wife long ago.

[bruce]

Hi Minnie,

I'm not in agreement with either Brad or Dobro on this one.

38.3 is not a picture of how things are but how they appear to be. 38 itself speaks to individualism, and line 3 shows the sense of being at odds with how it all looks to you, as though there?s a conspiracy working against your freedom of movement. From this perspective it appears frustrating and nearly hopeless.

However, 38.3 changes to 14, and that indicates much reason for optimism.

My suggestion is, stop trying to make sense of this thing and follow your heart.

[bradford_h]

Did I predict that, or what?

[dobro]

I thought of that 'follow your heart' thing, and that's why I talked about feelings that you follow at your peril.

I'm gonna call you on this one as well.

"38.3 is not a picture of how things are but how they appear to be."

Huh? The whole reason for using the Yi is to get beyond appearances to the reality behind the appearances. If all we want to know is the appearance of things, then we've got that already - all we have to do is open our eyes and look, and we get fooled. Constantly, repeatedly. So you're saying that in order to know what's going on here, we consult the Yi and it tells us how things *appear* to be? I don't buy it.

"However, 38.3 changes to 14, and that indicates much reason for optimism."

Well yeah, it changes to 14, but you're ignoring all the warning signs in 38.3. It's a really crummy line in terms of moving ahead with any kind of project at all. This oracle work is tough enough without ignoring what *is* obvious.


Finally, you are not the thoughts you're putting into this thread. I'm taking issue with what you're saying, not with you.

[bruce]

Brad, since when have I become ?new-age?? No, you didn't call anything but your own point of view.

Dobro, on how it appears:

Bradford?s translation: ?Seeing? a wagon held up - Its oxen restrained

LiSe?s translation: ?Seeing? the cart dragged, one's oxen pulled, one's people with bent head and cut off nose.

Wilhelm?s Translation: One ?sees? the wagon dragged back, the oxen halted.

Richer?s translation: You ?SEE? a CART PULLED along, DRAWN by an OX.

Legge?s translation: We ?see? one whose carriage is dragged back, while the oxen in it are pushed back, and he is himself subjected to the shaving of his head and the cutting off of his nose.

This "seeing" leads me to the understanding that this is how the situation appears to be to one receiving this line. It's also how I have personally experienced the line.

[bruce]

Let?s get into a couple of commentaries, shall we?

Wilhelm: Often it ?seems? to a man as though everything were conspiring against him. He ?sees? himself checked and hindered in his progress, insulted and dishonored. However, ?he must not let himself be misled; despite this opposition, he must cleave to the man with whom he knows he belongs (namely, him/herself, ie: follow your own heart). Thus, notwithstanding the bad beginning, the matter will end well.

LiSe: All people are different. One can make an issue of it, a straight discussion, and in the end someone will be injured. One can make a lighthearted repartee and it will be a mutual pleasure. The same starting point, but ?the outcome depends on the road one chooses? (hence my follow your heart), the road of being put in the right ?or the road of interesting exchange.?

Guess I?m in decent ?new age? company.

[frank]

Hi guys,

Looking at the literal translation of 38.3 I see this:

"Catch the sight of a carriage dragged.
Its oxen pulled.
Its Human Gods temporarly the nose cut off.
No beginning. There is completion."

The word 'jian' is about seeing, or catching side of... acording to Wen Lin, a computerprogram witch hold a Chinese / English dictionary and a translation of the I Ching (among other things). By clicking on the Chinese character you get a english translation of that character...

The word 'Qi' can mean 'his', 'hers', 'its', 'their', etc... so perhaps you are the one who is pulling the oxen, and you cath side of the carriage behind you and see that it is being dragged... You have a lot of weight with you?

The word Qie wich is usualy translated as shaven head, in Wen Lin is translated as 'for the time being, temporarly'... so you lose a nose only for a matter of time?

The words 'Ren Tian' together, acording to Wen Lin mean 'Humans in Heaven, Devas in Buddism', so NOT you, but your spiritual guides are TEMPORARLY taken the nose off..??? How could a Human God loose his or her nose temporarly? Well hellooooo, they are gods yes, and can put the damn thing back on the face, but what does it mean :-D?

Well, at least this line, after it changes, goes to hexagram 14... You do not need Human Gods, you have great possesions yourself...

Is the Yi saying that you can trust yourself and your own strengh in this? Do not search outside you, but go inside, and share it?

Does that make some sense?

Hug,
Frank

[martin]

Hmm, the Legge translation of this line also says "there is no good beginning, but there will be a good end".
Not sure if this should be interpreted as a good auspice for the relationship in the long run, though. It could of course only mean that the questioner will be okay, with or without her partner.

But, whatever one reads in this line, I think it's anyway not a good idea to base important long term decisions in love relationships on an IC reading.
The heart is fluid and tomorrow or next week things might be very different.

[bradford_h]

And if you can learn from "seeing" and not go down that road yourself, that's how you make a good ending out of a bad beginning. You don't need to get your own personal head shaved and tattooed. 38.3 actually happened to me once. I had my head (memory) permanently tattooed with the image of my girlfriend getting gang-raped while two really large men held knives at my throat. I wish I could have "seen" it coming and not taken her down that road unarmed. Vicarious trial and error is probably the ultimate use of a neocortex.

[bruce]

Brad,

You know that I respect you and the work you do. No question there. I?ve read your commentary of 38.3, and see that your view of this line differs from most other translator commentaries. Your last comments here substantiate that fact. You may be right. But it?s not how I see it at this point. If I never read any commentaries on this line, and based its meaning purely on my own subjective experience with it, I?d have reached my same conclusions. However, most other commentaries do seem to agree with my views on it. That doesn?t make it right, but it doesn?t make it wrong, either. Hopefully these discussions can help us all to understand more clearly.

On Martin?s comments, I agree, more all the time.

The most difficult thing in interpreting for others, to me, is getting them to see past the ?do and don?t/good and bad? of Yi?s answers. Yes, of course there are some obvious ?this is a wiser choice than that? answers, but at least as often the answers pertain to our own condition and state of mind.

Once that?s ?tuned in?, the choices we make are likely to be the answers the Yi gives us. So I should probably alter my ?follow your heart? to ?follow your heart once your mind has calmed and you?ve thought this through.? Then the answer to our clear and direct question can be seen. Until then, we're playing a dangerous game of 'tell me what to do'.

[bruce]

Brad, I'm truly sorry to hear of that awful experience. My own pov is that you would have been better served with a CCW and a 45acp than a copy of I Ching.

[lightangel]

I knew this was going to be an interesting thread.. I giggled at the sight of a little red wagon coming to a screeching halt and looking for a new road.. I waited patiently for the new age guru to show up (just kidding, Bruce!!! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif).. fluid hearts!! wow!!! ;))

But my real interest lays in the question: can it be that virtually ANY READING can be interpreted in opposite ways by different people?? Can it be that all hexagrams and all lines can fit not only any situation but also any outcome, any interpretation???? I think so.

But then, what makes them valuable then? that which we call intuition? I believe in this intuition thing very much.. and I also believe that it doesn't have to be personal, that when somebody does a reading for somebody else or chips in in the forum to answer a question, it's because something resonated in them with this question, this querent.. I really believe that when one of you speaks up it's because something clicked inside and not because you have preconceived notions of what a line or a hexagram are about.. or because you just come and paraphrase one of your books. Well, at least I hope it works that way because otherwise, there is really no way to know for sure what the Yi is saying..

Now, for Minnie's sake, what is the consensus?? Which way should the little red wagon go?? http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

[bruce]

Angel, I'd have shown up earlier but was busy with aroma therapy, and my guides told me to meditate on positive affirmations: I am wonderful. I love myself. I CAN do it. Etc. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/lame.gif lol

[micheline]

So, whether the reading is a positive omen for the future of the relationship or not, the question is what do you do with this reading from the Yi?

Do you "take heart" and believing all will be well, go on doing what you've been doing with him...sleeping with him and hoping for the best?

Instead, you might back off from this path!! Seeing the results of your current behavior, you back off, holding on to your dignity and your vision of what you REALLY want from him. That vision is not in alignment with his view of things now, so get your nose out of his face.

Back off, believing that what you want IS perhaps a real possibility with him, but not if you continue on the path of being led by his uncertainty and halting commitment.

Your own dignity is your 14. Hold on to it, believing you are worth more than a tumble in the hay . Stick to your principles.

he may in fact come around, yet. BUt for now, use your common sense about whats been going on, and be true and fair to yourself.

[lightofdarkness]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

"can it be that virtually ANY READING can be interpreted in opposite ways by different people?? Can it be that all hexagrams and all lines can fit not only any situation but also any outcome, any interpretation???? I think so."<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Sort of....All hexagrams/lines have core qualities that are GENERAL and so prior to colouring with emotions but are distinct from others. Earth to one is 'devotion to another/others' and reflects properties of the female. Earth to others is total, absolute, darkness and an agent of fear. BOTH of these interpretations reflect the ONE general quality of 'contractive blending' - issues of wholeness etc by drawing something 'in'.

LOCAL context, and that includes the personal experiences of each individual, will 'colour' the general, the universal, and in doing so make it appear as if we are dealing with 'opposite' interpretations since our conscious focus is so local and so focused upon expressions.

.... oh, and the ICPlus comment for the traditional 38.3 is:

"Despite having one's possessions taken and one's self physically injured, things eventually change."

The issue then is if the current context will change or else one needs to move on to a different context. It is the context that will push one's buttons and unless one is prepared to put in the energy to assert their own context 'over' the current then a respite may be necessary to recover, refine one's skills etc, prior to going back into that context.

THAT said, there is no guarantee that 38.3 is the 'best fit' hexagram so the questioning approach may add more information.

Chris.

[jesed]

Hi Minnie


I'll try not to proyect over you my own perspectives about relationships (neither "keep going" nor "get away").

I'll try only talk about what I know a little: Yi Jing

Clearest state of mine give clearest insight (as Bruce had said)
Clearest questions give clearest answers
Clarify our's own path is better to look how other's path affect us (of course, that doesn't means that one never ask about how others affect us)

I wouldn't recomend anybody to ask "was X the One?"
I would suggest, because I had find this helps better, look at yourself:

1.- Global Diagnosis of my Time
2.- General diagnosis of my sentimental time
3.- Diagnosis of my concrete situation related to X
4.- Causes and future effects of my situation related to X
5.- What is the wiser thing to do in order to improve my sentimental life?

One of the things that Yi Jing teaches is that some times, suffering a lost brings a renewal of the personal Path. Hope it could be your case this time

Best wishes}

[dobro]

Bruce -

You ignored both the points I made, and instead outlined your interpretation of what 'see' means in the Yi. You said:

"This "seeing" leads me to the understanding that this is how the situation appears to be to one receiving this line. It's also how I have personally experienced the line."

I'd like to suggest to you that 'see' in the Yi means 'witness' or 'experience'. I'd also like to suggest to you that 'see' does not mean 'appear' in the Yi. Why? Well, take 1.2 and 1.5, for example, where it talks of 'seeing the great person'. It means to witness them, experience their presence and being; it doesn't have anything to do with the way a great person appears. See, the Yi isn't concerned with appearances; it's concerned with realities. And if you check all the other instances of 'see' in the Yi, they make much more sense if you interpret them the way I have (with the possible exception of 4.3). As for your interpretation of 'see' arising out of your experience, I can't take issue with that.

I haven't ignored what you've said; I've addressed it. That's how I see it. :-)

Are we communicating yet? :-)

[matt]

But Dobra, 'appearances' are very important in the context Bruce used it in. As far as I understood it, he meant that it would be advised to re-visualise the situation. Thought is a powerful tool, we create our own realities through it. If we visualise despair and lack of hope in a situation, then this is invariably how it will manifest in reality. Human expectation has a HUGE impact on all around us, even Science deomonstrates this with their 'Placebo Effect'.

The Yi can indeed show how 'things are in reality' at the moment, but that does not mean we are slaves to the energies, and we have no power to transform them. I guess this concept can have it roots in how we all uniquely view the YI - as an external force, a friend, a higher power, a mathematical probability machine god thig with an IQ of 54 billion, or simply (as I see it) an extension of my self. Often when I ask Yi a question, it will be simpy stated "what am I not seeing in this situation", or "how are the energies moving in this situation". The resulting hexagrams will inform me of current processes, hidden or plain to see, but one thing I never do is accept that 'this is how my situation will be and there is nothing I can do about it'. The Yi is a guide, it certainly isnt my intuition, and as Bruce said, I will use the information provided to make a decision myself or follow my heart.

The moment you let the Yi make your decisions for you, then you immediately take away the very thing Yi is trying to grow in you - intuitive creativity - the power to create your own destiny. So often, the Yi shows us the 'pattern' of a situation, and when we become more aware of this pattern, we can then chose our own direction. Thats why the realm of appearances is a friend of Yi - If we are viewing a situation with despair and anxiety, then this IS a reality, its not just a delusional appearance. Our thoughts have created a situation of despair and hope, and if we just deny these feelings as delusion or non-truth, then they will never go away, they need acknowledgement/acceptance before they can be transformed into more productive energies/emotions. So the Yi would produce a hexagram relating to current state of mind, a hexagram that refelcts the reality we have created. And only then, when we have become aware of our reality can we change it - our own way - without rules or limitations. (And ideally with the wonder and awe of that little thing called heart)

[dobro]

Matt - I see a possibility that your idea of 'seeing' in the Yi might mean 'visualizing' here. So let's see what that means in the context of this thread's original question. The questioner was asking if the guy in her mind was 'the one'. Taking your meaning of seeing to mean visualising something, 38.3 would mean something like: "Visualize all the crummy images in 38.3 - there'll be an end to all this, but not in the beginning. That would mean that all the questioner's doubts will have strength in the beginning, but not later on. Fair enough. That would mean that the guy in question is the right one for the questioner. Eventually.

But even if the word 'see' meant to visualize something, that's still a way different meaning than 'appearance'. Appearance is how things appear; visualization is how we image things actively in our imagination. One is passive and deluded; the other is creative and instrumental. They're very different.

I'd really appreciate it if the questioner kept us informed as to whether the guy she's asking about turns about to be a good partner. It would settle some of the dust in this thread. :-)

[matt]

There is no dust to settle apart from the dust you are kicking up with your lyrical dances. This isnt about who is right and who is wrong.

This hexagram can be applied to 'appearance' - because its polarisation. At one end of the polarisation stands a person viewing the outer world in opposition to them. And vice versa. From whichever side you look from, there 'appears' to be a polarised tension, although each tension is individually based, not collectively based. So there isnt a collectice truth, other than the truth of polarisation.

Hence I mentioned 're-visualising' the situation. The individual empowers their own approach, and the polarisation can be transformed. Appearnces can be deceptive, but thats the whole point Bruce was making - the appearance of the situation is deceptive. The reality of the situation is accept individual polarisation, see the whole picure, and then a way forward will appear. And I can understand Bruces jump to optimisitic transformation in the 14 hexagram.

I'm not offering my own interpretation on this reading, I'm just trying to clarify what I thought Bruces intentions were.

[frank]

Hi all, and especially for you Jross, as you asked the question,

As we look to the trigrams in 38 we see Li, Sun / Fire above, and Dui, Lake / Swamp below. An atribution of Fire is seeing... the eyes... looking... An atribution of Swamp is ?hindrance?, so probably the Yi is saying ?Look where you are going?... Fire makes things clear, because it shines bright... The swamp makes things misty, and you can?t see a bottom or your feed on the floor or what swims below you... So... See what you are doing vs not seeing what you are doing, THAT is the oposition the Yi is talking about?

Does the background towards your question, Jross have something to do with one of you looking and one of you not? One is blinded by a blindspot, and the other one is seeing things more clearly?

Perhaps 38 is just saying to you that although you see him as the one and the one to be attached to (Fire!), the REALITY is that you do not know for shure if he is... (Swamp!). Line 3 could be about your own actions in this, and especialy your inner thoughts about your own steps (line 3 is about thoughts about your own role, as a human / heaven line). So by seeing this (the carriage as your thoughts...?), you try to move on by the thoughts you think and the doubts you feel otherwise (oxen are stuborn animals :-D). There is no help from above (they do not smell the oxen... the nose cut off), so you are on your own... Hexagram 14 then shows that you are very well capable to just do that... Do not begin... but complete... have trust and move on...

I think the answer the Yi gives you here is not about letting you know he is the one, but giving you inner trust to sort it out for yourself, instead of asking higher powers... (Human Gods, in the form of speaking to you through the I Ching...!)

Something like that :-D?

Huggie,
Frank

[bruce]

Dobro,

"I'd really appreciate it if the questioner kept us informed as to whether the guy she's asking about turns about to be a good partner. It would settle some of the dust in this thread."

Not really. I took no position on whether or not the guy she's asking about turns out to be a good partner, based on her reading.

There is "seeing", as in insight (ie: seeing the great man or a hidden truth), and there is seeing something from a purely subjective point of view. My only assertion has been that, the kind of seeing in line 3 is of the latter.

[ewald]

Muller has for ji?n ("seeing") (http://www.acmuller.net/cgi-bin/xpr-dealt.pl?89.xml+id(%27c898b%27)):
# To see, to experience with one's own eyes; to discern.
# To visit, have an audience with; to give audience to.
# Observe, regard as.
# Show, let see, display. Be visible.
# Idea, opinion, point of view.

[ewald]

I'm translating 38.3 currently as:
<blockquote>Noticing a wagon being dragged,
its ox held back,
its man has a branded forehead and his nose cut off.
Not the first time, but it'll be the last.</blockquote>
I'm not sure why Wilhelm/Baynes has "Not a good beginning, but a good end," as there is nowhere in the Chinese text a character for "good."

[bradford_h]

This is more on Jian4, from my own glossary www.hermetica.info/I-YiGloss.pdf (http://www.hermetica.info/I-YiGloss.pdf)
It means much more than just to passively see. It's closer to "put yourself in that place". It's what I meant by vicarious trial and error. When you "see the dragon in the field" or derive benefit from "seeing the great man", you are actually going to see them.

jian4 &amp;#35211; 0860 241a 147+0 01.2 (to) catch sight of, envision, look at, observe, perceive, see, spy, view, visualize, watch, witness; apprehend, be exposed to, call upon, consult, encounter, experience, have audience with, interview, meet (with), notice, receive, refer to, visit; appear, appear to be show up; display, reveal, exhibit, flaunt, manifest, show (s, ed, ing); (a, the) consciousness; sight, vision, advice respectfully sought; (to be) exposed (to), found, in view (of), seen, viewed, visible; consciously

[dobro]

Well, after reading all this a couple of times, I'm coming to the conclusion that, for me at least, 'see' has two main possibilities: the ordinary one of seeing and witnessing something, and the somewhat subjective one of perceiving something in a particular way (a perception which may not actually correspond to reality).

The first interpretation gives 38.3 this sort of meaning: "This is what you're seeing in the situation right now". The second interpretation gives the same line this sort of meaning: "This is how you're perceiving the situation".

Okay, if I'm right in reading the last line as something along the lines of "you can't bring all this stuff to its natural completion right away, but you'll get there in the end", then that would indicate that this lines resonates with Hex 14, right? That's the 'big having' involved here - you don't have it now, but you'll have it later - and that's encouraging. So overall, the gist of the first reading of 'see' would be: "things are crummy now, but it's a transient situation, and will eventually pass", and the overall meaning of the second reading of 'see' would be: "you're not seeing things clearly, but you'll get over that".

And for me, it doesn't matter a lot which one you take to be the case, cuz the crux of it lies in the last line - something lousy at first, but you get what you need in the end. Which means my original take on the line is mistaken. Hey Minnie - listen to nothing I've told you - I'm still learning the meaning of this line lol. Whew.

Matt - 'lyrical dance' - I like that. I know you're trying to be belittling, but I still like 'lyrical dance'. What I'm doing doesn't seem like dancing to me though, it seems more like groping toward a better understanding of the Yi. "Lyrical grope" doesn't quite sing though, does it?

[bruce]

Brad,

Your link didn't open for me.

Quote: "When you "see the dragon in the field" or derive benefit from "seeing the great man", you are actually going to see them."

Um, wait a minute here. I hope you mean that in a metaphorical sense? As in "perceiving", and not literally some great, wise old man with robes and sashes you can touch and hear and smell.

Likewise, the definitions you've presented for jian4 can also be interpreted as literal or metaphor. So I'm failing to see this as evidence of 38.3 as saying: seeing the truth of the matter. Instead, it can just as easily be interpreted as saying: this is what you catch sight of, envision, look at, observe, perceive, see, spy, view, visualize, watch, witness; apprehend, be exposed to, call upon, consult, encounter, experience, have audience with, interview, meet (with), notice, receive, refer to, visit; appear, appear to be show up; display, reveal, exhibit, flaunt, manifest, show, etc. ? but, only as you are subjectively imagining it to be.

[jesed]

Hi Bruce

In some practices, within some tradition in Yi Jing, one actually and literally see "some great, wise old man with robes and sashes you can touch and hear and smell".

Example: Confucio said King Wen was his master in the later years of his life. And many practitioners of that tradition had made the same experience.

Of course, if you say that is not "real" but a ilussion, I won't fight it back.

Best wishes

[ewald]

I'm not seeing this as getting what one needs in the end. Things come to an end, but it isn't said in what way. Wilhelm interprets it as a "good" end, but, like I said, that's not there in the Chinese. The man with the double punishment might be dying, for instance.

I'm interpreting the "seeing" as a kind of witnessing or noticing. One isn't undergoing the terrible situation oneself, but it's on one's path. One feels shock, but isn't hurt oneself.

[matt]

Dobro, no belittling on my part, I just thought 'lyrical dance' sounded nice too http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

The last few posts in this thread are a good example of 38 - the polarisation of interpretation - meanings can be derived from two (and more) distinct ways - the individual sees their own truth - each individual has their own way of 'seeing', neither is right or wrong, they are just polarised possibilties.

The key to understanding the situation as a whole is to consider ALL that has been said. There is value in Dobro's interpretation, value in Bruce's interpretation, value in Bradfords interpretation - because they are all self-truths, they all exist in an individual sense. Thats the beauty of polarising - recognising the value in everything, even those things that oppose us.

[void]

Mmm also 38,6 I thought was about someone 'seeing' others as 'pigs covered in filth', in other words suspecting someones motives wrongly, 'seeing' through your own clouded perspective what is not really there.

In the case of 38,6 in my own experience that turns out to describe the situation very well. Now if it were the case that I was 'seeing' the people as a group of 'pigs' and indeed they actually were and my perception is correct then - well that throws an entirely new light on it...

[bruce]

Jesed, I understand how real and illusion in-breed. (Ever spend nights in an unknown forest while under the influence of peyote?) If this is how Brad intended it, I'm fine with that. However, it still doesn't discriminate the difference between 38.3 as a misguided subjective impression of the junzi from the inner truth of what is actually happening. One can find their delusions within their illusions, as well as finding their truth.

[matt]

"One can find their delusions within their illusions, as well as finding their truth."

Agreed

[bruce]

Matt, I hear what you?re saying, but as was pointed out to me here awhile back , we must be cautious not to confuse Rorschach with I Ching. While I believe many of Yi?s answers are fluid to fit many bowls, there also are clearly definitive implications. I believe 38.3 exhibits clean articulation in its inference to subjective appearence vs truth of the matter. But then, maybe not.

[bradford_h]

Bruce-

It didn't open cuz I screwed up and wrote .pdf instead of .zip. To click is to download. It's got all the words in the Yijing that are used 5 or more times.
http://www.hermetica.info/I-YiGloss.zip

I've known/seen a few great men in my time. They have an effect on you. Meeting-type-seeing them is a whole lot different than seeing them on TV or in a documentary. You are inspired, your life changes. It's not a detached sort of witnessing.
I think jian4 type seeing means to have an experience that's much deeper than abstract or aloof. It's meeting in Martin Buber's sense when he said "all real living is meeting".

[bruce]

Brad, thanks. I've saved it to the Yi folder and will, I'm sure, be referencing it.

Can't say I've had the pleasure of meeting the sort of sage you refer to, physically. But I can imagine the impact, as I have met them elsewhere.

Guys, I'm exhausted. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/crazy.gif

[bruce]

umm, thinking just one brain cell more, I did meet such a man who made a tremendous impact on me, and not due to his celebrity, but due to his incredible humility and genius.

[dobro]

This is a good thread - I'm seeing all sorts of stuff in this line that I never saw before.

But maybe I shouldn't say 'seeing' lol.

Ewald, okay, you're onto something. But how do you read the last line in 38.3? I render it something like "without at first, having completion", and one meaning I give it is "you can't bring things to their natural completion right away" (in this case, the thing you can't bring to completion right away is what you're witnessing, which is pretty unpleasant).

[ewald]

Dobro - I see the last line referring to all the problems that the man that is seen has gotten himself into. It's "not the first time" he's gotten into trouble, as two different punishments are visible on him: his nose is cut off and his forehead is branded. Now he's gotten into some kind of trouble for at least a third time (but probably the XXth time), which will be "the last time" or "the end of it."

Muller (username: guest, no password (http://www.acmuller.net/dealt/cjkv-e-intro.html#access)) has
for chu1 (http://www.acmuller.net/cgi-bin/xpr-dealt.pl?52.xml+id(%27c521d%27)):
# Commencement, inception; the beginning, the opening, the start, the first, the outset.
# For the first time; just.

and for zhong1 (http://www.acmuller.net/cgi-bin/xpr-dealt.pl?7d.xml+id(%27c7d42%27)):
# To bring to an end.
# To come to an end.
# The end, the finish.
# In the end; finally.
# Death.
# The whole of, after all.
# Still, yet.

[ewald]

This is the Chinese text:
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/92/5943.gif

So this last line has only 4 characters, none of which means "good" in any way:

wu2 - chu1 - you3 - zhong1.
not - first - there is - end.

[bradford_h]

It should be noted that this sentence "wu chu you zhong" also occurs at 57.5, just prior to "before renewing, three days, after renewing, three days".

[dobro]

Ewald - "So this last line has only 4 characters, none of which means "good" in any way"

They don't have a 'good' meaning, true. Unless of course they signal an end to the picture presented in the first three lines. Is that what's going on, do you think? I suppose that might depend on whether you think Hex 14 being the relating hex has any bearing on the meaning of 38.3...

[dobro]

Brad - 57.5 noted. In that one, that line follows a good/positive/auspicious cluster of lines, so I'm sort of thinking that it doesn't negate or cancel out or dispel lines that precede it. But it seems to indicate some sort of delay involved, especially considering the three lines that follow it.

If that's the case, then Minnie's dealing with a period of waiting before something important happens.

[ewald]

Dobro - I don't believe that there is a direct relation between the relating hex and a line. In the case of a consultation with a single changing line, the Fan Yao (here 14.3) is imo more interesting than the hexagram text (14.0). The Fan Yao usually has a similar theme, but naturally differs in some respect. If a Fan Yao is "good", the original line by no means needs to be "good" as well. It may very well be a bit of a mirror image.

I'm translating 14.0 as:
<blockquote>Noble being,
a source of fulfillment.</blockquote>
and 14.3 as:
<blockquote>A duke offering to the Son of Heaven.
An ordinary man is incapable of this.</blockquote>
So that 14.0 and 14.3 are "noble," by no means means that 38.3 needs to be "noble" as well. Here 14.3 is more of a mirror image, it's the opposite of "noble." In 14.3 there is a sacrifice, which is something of a loss for the good, while in 38.3 there is a loss for the bad (for that man's ego defenses probably).

But you might argue that it's good that the "bad" situation comes to an end.

[ewald]

Dobro - I don't agree with in 57.5 the line not following something negative. There is "Regret goes away," so something negative has happened in the past - else there wouldn't be a previous regret. It's just that in this particular situation something is done about that.

[bradford_h]

I think the occurrence in 57.5 suggests that this might be a phrase taken from the larger culture, one which might be a) undertsood literally by analyzing the words, or b) an idiomatic expression whose meaning may only be guessed at. This might be an attempt to find a meaning for the statement that fits into both 38.3 and 57.5 contexts.
If I had to take a stab at the former, I would try "without beginning, there will be an end". "You" seems to be used many times in the Yijing as the future tense of the verb "to be". I might suggest the phrase might mean: although the causes of an even unfold infinitely back into the past, this does not prevent us from tying it off or resolving it in the present, or from finding some kind of closure.

[dobro]

Brad - yes, some kind of closure in the context of a process that takes some time. That fits in both cases. Nice.

Ewald - I often see a direct relation of meaning between a particular line and the relating hex, but not always. In the case of 38.3, I see a little connection with 14.3 and a bigger connection with 14.0.

[jesed]

Just in case the comment could be useful

Wilhelm is not just a "word by word" translator. As you had said, the final part of the line have several ways of being translate. Not of one have "good" as textual translation. To clarify the "sense" of that final part (it means, not a accurate word by word translation, but giving the equivalent meaning) Whilelm had use the interconections of the line

a) The Past Cause of Line 38.3 can be found in Line 8.3
b) The Future Effect (what Bradford called fan yao) of line 38.3 can be found in line 14.3

So, the "begining" in the text of line 38.3 was a bad begining (8.3); and the "end" in the text of line 38.3 will be a good end (14.3)

Maybe we can see this more clear if we put it like telling a story:
"In the past you had joined unfair people (8.3), but now that unfair union is being finishing in the middle of hinderences and even humiliations (38.3) Even if the begining was unfair/bad, if you have a great heart, what seems to be a lost would be actually a great benefit for you (14.3)"

Of course, I'm not saying that this is "the truth, all the truth and nothing but the truth"... just trying to explain how Whilelm came with "bad begining/good end"

[ewald]

Jesed - Can you explain how you derive the Past Cause of 38.3 in 8.3?

[jesed]

ps

now, if we apply this to the original question, we cann't say "we have problems now, but we'll be together again".

To me, the answer is like the Sages telling to Minnie

"Dear Minnie: this was an unfair relationship (8.3); nowadays you are facing the oposition and you are feeling a little humiliated (38.3) but if you have a great heart, you'll find that having lost this relationship will be better for you (14.3)"

[jesed]

This is a basic tool in traditional teachings:

To find the past cause of any line, change all the lines except the line you are focusing (and read only the coresponding line, not the entire hex); to find the future effect of any line, change only the line you are focusing (and read only the coresponding line, not the entire hex).

So, in 38.3.. to find it cause, you change lines 1-2-4-5-6.. it gives you earth in the inner trigram and water in the outer trigram. So, the cause is in the line 3 of hex 8


Note: this is only a tool for expand the comprehension of the sense... one doesn't write another hexagrams... the principal answer is in the principal hexagram... the principal sense of the line is in the line. But reading the line at the light of its cause and effect helps to understand better

[jesed]

A little more speculation, at the light of traditional teachings, in case that could be interesting:


About "wu chu you zhong" in 57

Hexagram 57 belongs to a clasification as Cliclic Signs. This ciclic signs point to a ciclic work of reconstruction, ending in hex 18.

So, the "begining" and "3 day before change"; and the "end" and "3 days after" in 57.5 are in reference of the work of 18.

Cause of 57.5 is in 17.5 Your heart is in the truth
Effect of 57.5 is in 18.5 The work to correct what was spoiled is done

So: there is somenthing spoiled but your heart remains in the truth (17.5), so now your are trying to undertand what to correct and how to correct it in order to get the sorrow away (57.5) and that achieve the correction could be done (18.5)

Again, a bad begining is turned to a good end, in this case because a right comprehension of the situation (57)

[jross]

Dear friends,

Thank you each and everyone of you for all of your comments - I am sincerely grateful.

I am actually very confused about what I should do now - I have one potential relationship with somebody who is willing to offer me everything; support, friendship, love, marriage and is one of the kindest people I have ever had the good fortune to meet and then there the other, my previous relationship.....this person seems to be so terrified of being hurt again and tells me that he is damaged! A choice of the substance or the shadow - do I opt for the easy life with someone that I don't really love or do I opt for the hard one with the person I adore.

I know I am in desperately in love with my ex' and the new one is somebody I wish I could be in love with. What do I do? I never imagined I would ever be put in such a difficult position. I know who I should stick with....but can't help my feelings. I know I don't want to be hurt again and I certainly don't want to hurt anyone unnecessarily.

Over the last few days I have asked the Yi for some more support on the subject as I am totally confused. So, I asked it again if there was any hope of a reconcilation between Stu and I - 53 (Gradual Progress) came up with changes at 53.1. and 53.3 changing to 31 (Wooing). Now what? What does this mean? And because I did not understand what this meant I asked it again last night what was going to happen with Stu and I and it came up with 24 - no changing lines.

I have decided to stay away from Stu and only remain in contact with him if he makes contact with me and tells me exactly what he wants from now on. If he is unwilling to give me the commitment I want or deserve then perhaps he is indeed not the one afterall.

If any of you have any points of wisdom you wish to offer me then I would be sincerely grateful.

Thank you again kindly.



Minne x

[ewald]

Minnie - In my opinion 38.3 has been telling you that the relationship with your ex is over. You seem to be fairly attached to your ex, though.

You might try and find out why you don't love this new person you wish you could be in love with. Maybe something important isn't there - or maybe you're too attached to your ex to be able to move on with your life.

Actually 53 changing to 31 has changing lines 53.4 and 53.6 not 1 and 3...

[jross]

Dear friends,

I feel like a total fool. I have been using the I Ching for two or more years now and have always used it correctly, but because of stress related problems of late (I'd say within the last 4 weeks or so) I think I may have managed to confuse myself when interpreting the changing lines by reading the lines from back to front. I can not say for sure, until I go home this evening and look through my book of recent readings. I have spent most of this afternoon feeling very sorry for myself because having read the I Ching I truly believed it offered me a true insight into my relationship problem and some possible hope for the future. I am now unsure. Perhaps somebody is trying to tell me something - all I know is I am very unhappy and for some bizarre reason I am unable to let go.

Thank you to all those who have been kind enough to give me their thoughts on the subject - it means a great deal to me.


Minnie x

[matt]

"It should be noted that this sentence "wu chu you zhong" also occurs at 57.5, just prior to "before renewing, three days, after renewing, three days"."

Bradford, its interesting you should say that (I have no knowledge of the original chinese in the translation) because in the dual cycles I use that run paralell to each other, hexagrams 38 and 57 share space together, they are in the same position directly related.

Picture:-
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d16/Betelgeuse77/38-57.jpg

So if you look at the correlation between the 3rd line and the 5th line, then it would take 3 full revolutions to move from the beginning of 3rd to the end of the 5th... a correlation in image and text it seems.

[jross]

Some of you may remember a number of weeks ago I asked for some advice about an ongoing problem I was having with an ex-boyfriend. I am now in a new relationship wiith someone I am extremely fond of and who I have great respect for - however, I still have feelings for my ex. I know this is wrong, but I can't seem to let go of him. I think I still love him. I truly thought that the relationship with him was over - so I moved on and gave up on him.

Two weeks ago I saw him out for the first time and all those feelings that I thought had disappeared returned with a vengence. Seeing him again filled my stomach with butterflies. We laughed and when he found out I was with someone new, he became very defensive and argumentative. I have been in contact again and he has suggested we meet up as friends. I have been lost as what to do - so I threw the I Ching and it came up with 49.2 changing to 55.

Can anyone offer me some clarity on this reading please. My head is all over the place.

Thank you.



Minnie x

[frank]

Hi Minnie,

49 is about revelution, line 2 about organising your own feelings insite (trigram below, only yang line in position 2, makes hex. 7, the army / organisation / discipline and 55 knowing things are great, but flowing... What do you self make of that?

Hug,
Frank

[rosada]

Greetings Minnie,
I have only read the last two most recent postings on this thread...
49.2 says to me that it is time to change the whole nature of your connection with your ex. You've had a romance, that didn't work, you've broken up, that didn't work, so how can you to know each other in this lifetime? Ah, maybe as old friends.
7. says to me that it is important that everything one does is in alighnment with our higher purpose. You have a new boyfriend now. Being faithful to him is your "higher purpose".If the ex is truly to be "an old friend" you can't be meeting him on the side because that is not being faithful to your current lover, and also that is not how "old friends" behave.
55. Everything going to come out in the open. Tell the new boyfriend what is going on, that you ran into an old friend and would like the two of them to meet, - alright,maybe you don't have to go into all the details of the past.. ;-) - and tell the ex you and your new boyfriend would be delighted to join him for a cup of coffee sometime. Or if that seems impossible, tell your new boyfriend you are not ready for an exclusive relationship. Or don't have anything more to do with the ex.

[jross]

Dear all,

Thanks again for your feedback on this. And to you Frank and Rosada for your kind words - my new boyfriend is an old friend who is fully aware of all the goings on with my ex, but there is really no way the two could meet, for obvious reasons. Of course being faithful to him is my main concern (I wouldn't have it any other way).

My new boyfriend is great, he really is - but why am I still so unhappy and still so attached to my ex? I always seem to be looking for anwers that he will come back to me at some stage. I have such a heavy heart.

Minnie

[frank]

Hi Minnie,

Whow, I forgot to look better, and yes by changing line 2 of 49 you do not get 55, but 43... Probably it is time to let the stress come out in words... then the heart will not be that heavy anymore... Do you actually talk about this with your new boyfriend? Perhaps even with the old one? Mmm, there still should be a confrontation with disipline and tactics.

Hang in there,

Hug.
Frank

[jross]

Hi Frank,

I couldn't possibly talk to my new boyfriend about how I feel about my ex - he's an old friend and seems to be very much in love with me. How could I hurt him? It doesn't bear thinking about and as for the old boyfriend (the ex). I've shown him how I feel I think......and I have my pride, my self respect and my dignity to think of. If I tell him how I really feel, it only serves to make me more vulnerable and gives him the opportunity to reject me again. I can't put myself through it. Besides if he really and truly loved me.....he would tell me surely?

Lost is a word that comes to mind quite frequently. Perhaps it's time to just accept things as they are and realise that we will never be together.

Thank you Frank.


Much love


Minnie x

[frank]

Hi Minnie,

Those words you say realy give a signal... Be true to them... even if you are realy afraid of the outcome... That?s also the ?heavyness? 43 is talking about to let out... Besides that I realy know how you feel as I took the risk to step over my pride and let someone know how I felt, although I was rejected... (She is still a friend, and we have planned a lunch together at the end of this month...). It?s my challenge to deal with the input I want and what is... So probably should you... Perhaps you could ask the Yi some more insightfull questions...?

Hang in there!

Hug,
Frank

[jross]

Hi Frank,

Well I took some of your advice and asked the Yi another question. But, before I go into that I thought I'd let you know I haven't heard from him (Stu that is) and for now have decided against telling him how I really feel. I have other avenues of approach - a subtle word to a mutual friend is on the cards(who I know would like to see us both back together very much).

My real concern is whether or not I have become slightly obsessive about this situation or if my intuition is indeed telling me something. I have always had a strong sense of knowing. I am not sure how to tell anymore.

Last night I asked the Yi if I am deluding myself (is it just my imagination?) by thinking that Stuart is indeed going to come back into my life/want me back?

It threw back Hex 14 with changes at 14.4, 14.5 and 14.6 changing to Hex 34.

Makes absolutely no sense to me other than.....it's still telling me I need to wait....the time has not yet come for sweeping measures.

Any words of wisdom Frank (anyone else)?

Thank you again.



Minnie x

[philippa]

Hi Minnie,

I want to say I can sympathise with what you are going through.

I also want to point out that 14.4,5,6 does not change to 34. It changes to 5 (which I assume you knew already because you referred to the notion of "waiting").

There are many ways of understanding an answer. Some people prefer looking at the overall change (14->5). Some people like to look at the individual lines. It is important to trust your gut instinct such that the approach you take leads to an interpretation that resonates with you the most. And it seems to me that you don't trust your intuition much.

You asked: am I deluding myself...?

There are multiple interpretations possible. The most straightforward is, yes, you are deluding yourself, i.e., you finally get the point and of course, this is "great harvest." And by realizing this, some sort of resolution will eventually come to you (i.e., 5).

The less obvious one is that Yi may be correcting your "erroneous" thinking by reflecting the "reality," whatever that is.

In my personal experience, the majority of the answers I received are very direct (i.e., instead of correcting my perception or point of view). Whichever the case is for you, try to be honest with yourself and give it time to let the answer sink in.

I wish you the best of luck.

Philippa

[jross]

Phillipa,

Thank you very much for your posting. I am an idiot. I actually meant hexagram 9.....sorry with changes at 4.5 and 6 which would indeed make the overall change 34. Silly me. I don't want to waste anymore of your time, but if you have any answers to that reading I would be very grateful......And to anyone else who might be reading....I've had two glasses of red wine.

Thank you.


Minnie. xxx

[philippa]

Dear Minnie,

Hmm. 9.4.5.6 presents quite a different picture.

Your question: am I deluding myself...?

9 presents an image of clouds gathering and yet there's no rain.

Both line 4 and line 5 talks about being sincere and truthful. Again, given that you were inquiring on the validity of your thinking, my take is still, try to be (more?) trusting of your gut instinct on the right attitude/course of action (in contrast to what your "rational" mind is telling you to do or think).

Line 6 is interesting. Line 6 says the rain has fallen (e.g., your ex has failed to initiate further contact). With the exception that the fan yao of 9.6 is 5.6, I actually don't see "waiting" as the key reading here. Think of it as, now that the rain has fallen (recall that 9 is about clouds gathering), there's not much more to be gained from your current line of inquiry.

From a different angle, perhaps the thing to do is to ask yourself, how you can divert some of the energy (you spend thinking about your ex and you) into something else. Line 4 and 5 do present very positive signs (worries going away and relationships strengthening), but they depends on you to have some faith in yourself (and possibly in the people around you?).

Again, lots of luck. I do hope that you can resolve this internal conflict.

Philippa

[frank]

Hi Minnie,

How are you doing? Realy, beside the Yi and asking questions, how are you actually doing?

These posts do give me signals that goes beyond the answers the Yi is giving... In every question, and even in every answer there is the picture of love for an ex boyfriend and NOT for the boyfriend you have right now... Stu has not give ANY signal back... Is it not about time to move on then? Even talking to a mutual friend keepes the ghost of him insite... Why torture yourself that much... Or is it realy your intu?tion that tells you to hold on...? OR IS IT JUST PLAIN DOWN WISHFULL THINKING...?

By receiving hex. 9 as your answer there is at least a signal that you can't do much right now... As the wind (upper trigram), blows over heavenly clouds (trigram below), the rain has not arrived yet... To me this represents your inner way of living these days... Moods symbolised by clouds and tension (rain) not yet comming out... One attribution of hexagram 9, as the literature speaks about, is the need for 'detail'. Like the wind blows in every hole of heaven, so should you be aware of details in this matter... Then getting into details whould make you more awake and conscious about the fact what is actually going on...

Changing line 4 of 9 you could have a confrontation with enthousiasm, as line 4 in 16 (enthousiasm) is the only hexagram with a yang line on that position... Line 4 alone, in any hexagram is telling something about just that... This tells me that you would still be thrilled to have Stu back into your life... You are enthousiastic about it. But as every brave suporter yells for his team before a soccermatch, or even during it, so do you... You shout in euforic ways the dream you want to make reality... Well, then you can shout as long as you like, but as long it's going to be just to blow your enthousiasm sky high, you will not getting anything done here on the plain down earth, before getting out of the bubble and start walking :-D! Line 4 of 9 let the hexagram change into hexagram 1 and the BIG LEAP FOWARD on the position of line 4 there...

By changing line 5 only, you get a confrontation with hex. 8 as that is the only hexagram with a yang line on position 5.... and the Union of hexagram 8 is actually not about the union of you two, but to yourself first! How can you tickle someone before knowing your very own tickle spot? By changing line 5 of 9 you get hex. 14 Great Possetions... Start to become aware what YOU have to offer and then share it... (Then even Stu could start to become aware what he is missing...)

By changing line 6 of 9 you will be confronted with letting out what's insite you and waited so long to come out. (Hex. 23, as that one has only a yang line on top). Then hex. 9 changes into that of hex. 5, the waiting in faith...

I think you do NOT delute yourself, bu the Yi is getting a bit tired of all of this, I guess... Together the three changing lines make the confrontational hexagram of 12, STOP!

By getting hexagram 34 at the end I think the Yi is reflecting the powers inside yourself that could be distructable. And as a saying is put to the meaning on this hexagram it tell you that" It's great to have powers like a giant...it's a tirany to use it as such" (Shakespeare)... Do not destroy yourself in guilt here... as the imagetexts are saying: "Do not enter roads that are not in place with the order..."... Stay who you are, and look to what is possible in real life detail... not in dreams only... :-D

I can almost hear the confercation between you and the Yi, and now the Yi is talking: "My god, Millie! STOP at once with thinking such a nonsense about deluting yourself... It brings you further from the point where you want to go to... STOP dreaming (and scare yourself) and start acting by looking into details (9), which could be talked over with a mutual friend, as long as he / she is objective enough (!), and you give yourself time to come back at earth and start to jump (1), use the euforia to get where you want to go (16), feel good about yourself (8), share that (14) and WAIT IN FAITH (5). Perhaps Stu comes back then, and perhaps not! That is NOT the Issue... The Issue is that you feel terrible about yourself while loving an ex and NOT loving the man you are with now... STOP feeling guilty, and start to work... Then even perhaps a third party will show up later on..."

Does this making some sense what so ever?

HANG IN THERE

BIG HUG
Frank

[jross]

Dearest Frank,

It was truly an insight to read your posting. Things have changed slight ly in the last few days. If anything I've had an awakening of sorts.......I'm beginning to see the light. Recently, I've spent some time with some good quality friends who have shared their views with me and in the process have done wonders for my self-esteem. Stuart is not worthy of me - he has nothing to offer me, other than a great deal of baggage. I offered him so mcuch love and he just didn't want it. I am far from over him and I tend to agree with you in that the Yi is most probably getting fed up with me asking the same question. I realise that this is a gradual process and I am getting better. But everytime I hear from him (see him) or one of his friends gets in contact it just makes me feel awul all over again. It's definately time to move on......and time to gain some strength.

Thank you Frank (and you Phillipa) for your input, advice and kind words. It really helps to have some clarity on these issues - especially when you become blinded by your own problems/concerns.

If anything changes, I'll be sure to let you know.

Love Minnie x

[frank]

Hi Minni,

Glad to be of some help. And Stu does not know what he is missing... :-D... Take care, and shure... keep me informend...

Hug,
Frank