4 and pregnancy ?

[void]

I was asking about the possibility of pregnancy for someone for reasons I won't go into, suffice to say it may not be possible. I received hexagram 4, lines 3 and 4 moving. Relating hexagram 50.

Quite intrigued by this answer. On the face of it I would take it as saying 'No, put this fantasy away', but reading Karcher on 4 made me think again since he refers to 'dreaming and the womb' and things 'enveloped' and the 'image of foetus growing in the womb'.

Nevertheless I think I would still take this answer to mean pregnancy is not a future possibility, the lines referring to being lost in unrealistic thinking. Wondered if anyone had any thoughts to offer on this ?

BTW its was a fairly physical question as in 'Is this persons body able to support a pregnancy at this time'.

[peace]

Void:

It could be that the relationship with the baby's father may support the pregnancy (or not?)
That may be a bigger factor than the womb - since the womb may be more open or less open and welcoming to a baby if it feels safe and supported.

The line (3) speaks about dignity and and attitude towards another.
The line is yielding in a strong place and in a place of transition from lower to upper trigram (which describes a pregnancy) and can also be related to Karcher's "dreaming in the womb".

Wilheim says.."it is not able (the line) to withstand the temptation to throw itself away and thus it leaves the right path. An intimate union is therefore not favorable".

Line 4 - Huang refers to this as a humiliating isolation. He says the "humiliation is caused either by cutting oneself off from people or by losing touch with reality".

I'm wondering even more about the relationship with the baby's father. Is it based on reality or the woman's fantasy? (whatever that is). The key seems to be, what is real here?
And...if she is thinking about a specific man - or if she is thinking about a donor she doesn't know - how does this effect a baby - especially later on?

-----------
With 50 as the relating hex - it seems to me that the verdict is not in yet about the baby.
Things are still "cooking" and the outcome will probably be based on the reality of the relationship between both people. This in turn will effect the pregnancy.

If the woman is pregnant - there is obviously potential to support a pregnancy. The body does all kinds of things. I don't think it is possible to separate the physical from the psychological in this case. Whether this is best for the mother and the baby is another story.

When you say, "No, put this fantasy away" - I wonder why you are saying it is a fantasy? That can also impact the outcome.

Just noticed you asked about possibility of pregnancy - not that she's already pregnant. I'd answer the same though.
The bottom line - hormones can be given, tubes can be untied - there's alot of medical advances out there that aren't always popularized if someone wants it badly enough.

Hope that helps a little.
Rosalie

[micheline]

corresponding lines 50.3. and 50.4 could indicate a pregnancy that would not be viable...subject to miscarriage...esp if women is older, just past the age when pregnancy is likely to happen and even less likely to be sustained

[void]

Hmm yes thanks Rosalie. I was suprised about line 3 as the father is not especially pertinent to the question as I was just asking about the womans physical capability, but of course it would be a factor in how supported she feels in her pregnancy.

Thanks Micheline I'd not thought of looking at 50,3 and 4.

[peace]

Void:

I just followed Micheline's lead - and checked 50.3 and 50.4. I only have Bradford's text with me.

I think the circumstances (whatever they are) are very important. Major events don't take place in a vacuum.

50.3
"The caldron is fine looking - but all wrong in function and balance......

Now will his belly begin to resent his poetic direction in life as he watches his meal turn black."

I hate to say this - but the idea of miscarraige does come to my mind.

He goes on to talk about relying on something more traumatic.

In 50.4 he talks about the "caldron with a broken leg.....the meal becomes a stain.....Everything is sacrificed. The sacred is profaned. The shame comes too late and the servant had best be packing for exile...."

Whew!

I think the critical question is: Why does the woman want to be pregnant? What is underlying the desire to become a mother? What is her attitude about being a woman? What is her attitude about men? The father not being pertinent in this case is suspect.

Good luck!
Rosalie

[bradford_h]

Hi guys-
Careful about looking at the Fan Yao or relating lines as involved in the divination. Their best use is in understanding the lines that Were received.
So that 50.3 talks about the need in 04.3 for more practical ends in choosing the means (getting a better handle on the situatiion or grip on oneself), subordination the fantasy to longer range goals, with a little self-preservation thrown in, and 50.4 talks about the need in 04.4 to raise the bar or standard and demand something higher of oneself.
Both would indicate looking towards a more distant part of the future.

[peace]

Thanks Bradford - I had no idea.
So you're saying that the lines in the 2nd hexagram are used to interpret the lines you got that change in the first hex?

4.3 speaks to being more reality/practical based and 50.3 speaks to the direction now is not so good??
I don't really understand.

Rosalie

[bradford_h]

Hi Rosalie-
I don't really use the corresponding lines in the relating hexagram, except when there's only one changing line (ie Fan Yao), but I would use them just like I do the Fan Yao.
For 04.3 and 04.4 the Fan Yao are 18.3 and 64.4 respectively. I believe that these shed light on the original lines because the original Zhouyi authors studied these lines while writing the line texts. They got lots of their ideas by doing this. They are not part of the divination, but they help to comprehend some more of the meanings of the lines.
I think it's important that we learn what we can from the others, but for relevance, the lessons have to be recast in terms of the images and metaphors of the lines we actually draw.
So if you are using 50.3 to understand 04.3, you take the lessons about practicality from 50.3 and recast them into the image of 04.3, avoiding the golddigging maiden. Here it can be literal - get a better grip or your fat pheasant's gonna get burned.

[peace]

Thanks Bradford.

For myself, I am just going to keep it simple - both hexagrams and the changing lines of the first one - and sometimes the method where you look at the transitional hexagram lines if more than one line changes.

Rosalie