Casual intercourse... Hex 61 line 5. Need interpretation...

[sandor]

Being in need of having casual sex disturbs me a little, at least, it disturbs some portion of my consciousness. Nevertheless, it?s been taking place lately... Yesterday I met someone nice, we had a nice chat before and afterwards...
I asked for the meaning of this encounter to be revealed to me in the light of the I Ching...
Hex 61 line 5 turning into 41...
Thanks for sharing and helping me understand more deeply...
Sandor.

[bruce]

Where do you hang out? Here the only places to meet loose wimmin are in churches or saloons.

Being a bit loose with this interpretation, 41 diminishes the individual in favor of being part of something [which seems] greater. This casual union you seek is an example, in that you seek to merge yourself through intercourse, and this leaves you feeling disturbed. Your ?self?, in fact, was disturbed.

61.5 I'm thinkin is saying to fine-tune yourself by hookin up with someone you can relate with on a deeper, more satisfying level. Then there is no sense of losing your self. It becomes increase to each of you, rather than decrease.

[dobro]

For 61.5, the evaluation is 'no blame'. So, it might disturb *you*, but the Yi says there's no blame involved in your casual sex. Which is probably the gist of the message for you. The Yi's gently nudging you away from the meaning of your sexual encounter, and nudging you toward the meaning of *your attitude* toward your sexual encounter.

Also, did you notice how you didn't draw hex 44 in response to your question? Now, *that* would have been a thumbs down comment on your sexual activity. But you didn't draw that. Take a deep breath. Relax. Remember to carry condoms. :-)

ps Another meaning involved in 61.5 is that of capturing truth and connecting with something or someone important to you. That's a pretty positive comment on a sexual encounter, it seems to me.

[dobro]

Bruce -

"61.5 I'm thinkin is saying to fine-tune yourself by hookin up with someone you can relate with on a deeper, more satisfying level."

See, Bruce, that's the constant question you've got for every Yi consultation - is it talking about what is, or is it talking about what should be? Only the querent can answer that question. Well, Sandor? lol

[bruce]

Dobro, absolutely. All any interpreter can do is offer their logic and their intuitive impression. Moreover, I don't perceive Yi's answer as always having one exclusively relevant meaning, though I think sometimes it does. Most of the time it blossoms with several petals. And, yup, that can only happen in the mind of the one asking the question.

Btw, I hope what I said didn?t come off as being judgmental. I have no problem with people getting laid.

[rosada]

"The meaning of this encounter"?

Sounds like the I Ching is saying

61.5
"You understand completely."

It was casual sex and

41.
"Nothing more."

[micheline]

yes i like rosada's take..
but also in light of sandor's past questionings which I recall, this response could be reminding him that he is reaching out to the truth of who he is, a journey he wasnt sure he should take if I remember correctly, and for that, there is no blame. he is following his heart on a deeper quest I suspect than merely that of casual sex

[micheline]

some quests are beyond the realm of morality as we know iT, didnt thomas more, in care of the soul, say that morality in the typical sense, can stifle the soul

"Every day we could choose to be intimate rather than distant, bodily rather than mental, acting thoughtfully from desire instead of from discipline, seeking deep pleasures rather than superficial entertainments, getting in touch with the world rather than analyzing it at a distance, making a culture that gives us pleasure rather than one that merely works, allowing plenty of room in our own and others? lives for the eccentricities of sexual desire, and generally taking the role of lovers rather than doers and judges. "

? 2002, Thomas Moore

[jte]

Nice comments above... my take:

"Hex 61 line 5 turning into 41"

Fulfillment of your being (for the moment)...

- Jeff

[dobro]

A question for Bruce, Rosada, Micheline, and Jte: I've reread this thread, and the first impression I got, comparing the different responses, was that each poster interpreted the data according to their own biases. I'll give you an example.

Bruce added a kinda joke line to his response to one of my posts: "I have no problem with people getting laid," and as soon as I read it, I thought I'd respond with a similar joke line: "Me neither. I positively encourage it, in fact." My guess is that both of these joke lines actually reflect the values of the posters - Bruce and myself in this case.

Okay, so for all of you who posted in this thread: do you think your interpretation of 61.5>4 in the context of Sandor's one night stand was influenced significantly by your own value system and what you think of casual sex? Be honest. I mean, you might not get the chance again... :-)

[nicky_p]

Hi Dobro,

It's funny how these things come to pass - I was recently having a very similar conversation with my dad about the media. We were discussing how the views of the newsreader/newspaper collumn writer/and (in this case) diviner will subconsciously come through the words they 'speak'. Even if a person dealt completely in 'hard cold fact' slight nuances in the choice of word, tone inflection and body language would convey their opinion on the matter on a subconscious level. And, even if the 'receptor' does not consciously realise they will listen on a subconscious level. Even here where we deal purely in words (and maybe the odd emoticon http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif) - only something like 2% of our comunication skills - we are imparting these 'opinions' through our choice in language. For example, Sandor chooses the word 'disturb' instead of 'puzzle' or 'confuse' etc.

And, although we 'attempt' to look at the hexagrams impartially and objectively, our own experience and interpretations will filter through. Otherwise, what is the point of coming to a 'discussion' forum? A 'cold hard fact' just 'is'. There is no opinion on it. We come here to 'explore' those facts or in this case the words, language and so the message of the oracle. And to have firends with individual thoughts and opinions contribute to our understanding. It would be so bland otherwise http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

So, I thought I'd test myself out with this. I tried to look through the hexagram and suspend my opinions on the matter. And what do you know - they were still there! They stared back at me from the page! Now, either the Yi is telling me that I'm completely 100% right in this matter ..... or maybe that it's not possible .... or maybe somewhere in the middle http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif

Love
Nicky
xx

[micheline]

My reply had nothing to do with any bias, only to do with sandor's first posts and his quest. I have never belived in casual sex for myself and have never engaged in it......my emotional makeup demands more...... but I still believe that anyone who lives by the letter of morality sells themselves short and misses out on experiences that could be necessary to their growth

[void]

But whys everything got to do with 'growth'. I don't think it has. I might eat a gorgeous meal that i really wanted because I was so hungry. When the meals over I don't have to think about the implications of eating it, hopefully i can just sit back and gaze down happily at my bloated belly - hmm well thats grows admittedly !!

Sexual desire is an appetite same as hunger. Satisfying it can't be wrong unless it hurts another (oh and they don't want to be hurt http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/lol.gif) Sounds like Sandor had some good fun with someone else who also did (lucky devil http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/mischief.gif) and I think the Yi's answer shows approval for the sincerity of the behaviour, the honesty, the lack of pretense. I see 41 here as indicating its bettter to keep things simple and basic and thats exactly what Sandor did.

After all many people try to build very dodgy relationships based simply on the desire for sex.

If the time is not right for a relationship then casual sex is much better than making a complicated, muddled emotional mess. I think the answer was a definate thumbs up from the Yi.

[bruce]

Hi Dobro,

That?s a thought provoking question. As Nicky expressed, I don?t think it?s possible to eliminate bias altogether or to be 100% purely objective. We draw from all past experiences and lessons, both pragmatic and subjective, and that is reflected in what we believe to be our objective points of view.

My views regarding sexuality in general are very open and liberal, even though I choose quite an austere life for myself. So in that regard, I don?t think I?ve projected my personal bias into Sandor?s reading. However, I have formed a strong impression, and therefore a somewhat stubborn bias, regarding the nature of hex. 41, which I?ve expressed in my interpretation for Sandor?s question. 41, to me, is the reduction of self interest for the sake of a larger context: a government, company, organization, relationship, or for ones greater self.

Reviewing Sandor?s question and my interpretation, checking my own subjective involvement, I wouldn?t change a thing. I stand by my interpretation as being dead center to Yi?s answer. That doesn?t happen with every interpretation I offer, but I ?believe? my interpretation is a clear minded reflection of Yi?s answer. How do I know? I don?t. I can?t. But I?m confident it is accurate. I guess that can be called a bias?

[frank]

Hi Sandor,

Hex. 61 to me at least says something about facts you probably know already when you are honest to yourself. Line 5 is the line of ?seeking union, within or without? as the only hexagram with a yang line on that position is hex. 8 ?Union?, and o my... you want to go litarly here? If you look for Union, the Yi answered you the consideration for the fact that having sex with someone can shure feel like a deep bond and union, also within yourself, as finaly feeling complete. By getting towards 41, the Yi tells you that by having sex alone the Union YOU see will not that easy be found, as a mather of fact, you could feel a hangover and think ?Well... that was nice.... next?, or this is it?? The Yi just reflects your doubts here. It does not judge, just giving results if you continue... and if you want to... why not...

Hug,
Frank

[bruce]

Void,

I'm uncertain how Yi would give either a thumbs up or down to Sandor's question. I don't think he was seeking Yi's approval. The issue here appears to be not whether casual sex is good or bad, but how to address the disturbance which results from his sexual practices.

"Being in need of having casual sex disturbs me a little, at least, it disturbs some portion of my consciousness."

[rosada]

Along the same lines as Bruce, I don't see the I Ching as giving approval here. It is not giving disapproval, but perhaps it is giving Sandor a mirror so he can recognize where the feeling of disturbance is coming from.

61.5 Inner Truth is about drawing another to you by the power of one's intention. This lover was attracted not by your wit, your looks, your money, your status or anything about you other than the fact her intention was totally in alighnment with your own, that is, she just wanted to get laid too.
The I Ching specifically states there is "No blame" in this.

So where does the disturbance come from? I would suggest - and maybe this is where my bias comes in - that 41 is telling you that you feel a bit depressed now because your are feeling a bit rejected. Casual sex is synonymous with anonymous sex. But after having sex with a person you are no longer anonymous. They know something about you and the fact that they know you now but don't care to know more, their interest has 41. Decreased, well, that would be a bit of an ouch I would think.

So I don't think the I Ching is judging you, but perhaps it is encouraging you to judge for yourself whether casual sex is enough for you.

[void]

Bruce, well i don't know exactly what 'disturbs' Sandor a little about casual sex, so I was kind of assuming it was a feeling of it being immoral or not quite the right thing to do ? If so then I saw the answer as Yi saying 'this is fine'.

Looking back you will see the question was actually 'for the meaning of this encounter to be revealed to me in the light of the I Ching', it was not as you seem to think about how to address the disturbance resulting from sexual practices.

Well then my view of the answer from the Yi is that it was an honest encounter with nothing to regret.

[void]

Actually none of us know what disturbs Sandor about casual sex, we are all making assumptions like Nicky says.

[bruce]

Void,

Why would the Yi even care whether someone chooses to have casual sex, if not for the impact it has on the person having it, who says he is disturbed by it?

And if all we?re doing is making assumtions, this is a total waste of time and effort; a conclusion I?ve reached more than once.

[nicky_p]

Dear Bruce,

Without assumptions where would we be? As a toddler the assumption is made that you see people walking around on 2 feet instead of crawling around on all fours and think 'I should be able to do that!'

Assumptions are what enable us to go out into the world and eat, breathe and talk to people. Most assumptions are based on a little bit of prior experience - I went out yesterday, breathed in the air and it didn't kill me so it won't tomorrow.

It's acting on assumptions that allows us to learn - either that they are right or wrong. If only it were so black and white all the time because I don't know about you but it never seems to fall neatly into those categories. But then again life would be a little boring.

Love
Nicky
xx

[rosada]

Doing crossword puzzels is probably a waste of time too, but don't you love that juicey sence of rightness when the word fits?

[jte]

"Do you think your interpretation of 61.5>4 in the context of Sandor's one night stand was influenced significantly by your own value system and what you think of casual sex? "

Well, I think it was influenced by my own experience with the line. I've received 61.5 in the past regarding sex with my wife (and, at other times, other lines that were, well, interesting).

I personally have no qualms against casual sex, if I did, I might have interpreted slightly differently, but, all else being equal, it's hard to see how different it could be. Generally, I think 61.5 is a line that links to the core of one's being. So, in Sandor's case the sexual encounter was a reflection/manifestation of that fundamental human need.

- Jeff

[bruce]

Hi Nicky,

From a position of 4, you are entirely correct. Not knowing, guessing, assuming, very important stuff. But there?s 63 other considerations here, and we should be able to address those with reasonable certainty. Without reasonable certainty there is no potency. That is the reason we ask Yi questions, isn?t it?

[nicky_p]

Dear Bruce,

As, it seems, with everything it all depends on your starting position and previous experience.

I haven't been consulting the Yi for very long so I guess I do come to it from very much of a 4 viewpoint. As I experience more my position and 'knowledge' of it will change. I will make new assumptions and test them and people will say things that will resonate with me but blow an idea that I have completely out of the water. But it won't be exactly the same assumptions as you have made, make or will make - it's an individual relationship.

Also it depends on whether you can accept the assumption that there is the ability to have a priori knowledge - to just 'know' without ever having experienced.

I did philosophy for a bit at school and we used to get into very detailed, heated discussions about this type of 'knowledge' - going round and round in circles and completely missing the point of what the original argument was. The more I look at it I realise that there are some things that I just 'know' but I only come to that conclusion after experiencing it. Bit of a paradox - does it cancel itself out? - and, does it matter? Maybe that's why when you try to test the Yi it turns round and says 'no go'.

Love
Nicky
xx

[exnihilo]

"Yesterday I met someone nice, we had a nice chat before and afterwards...
I asked for the meaning of this encounter to be revealed to me in the light of the I Ching...
Hex 61 line 5 turning into 41..."

I think the answers points to the fact that you are aware of the fact that it's only casual sex. You're being honest with yourself about it. You are engaging in it but not trying to make it into something it's not. Some people try to rationalize casual sex and pretend that they're in a relationship etc. I don't see that here. You know exactly what you're doing and this is what the Yi is responding to.

Having said that,

I don't think the Yi is making a positive or negative comment on casual sex. (I'm personally against it.) I think she's just commenting on what's going on inside your mind about the issue.

[void]

I never said the Yi was commenting on casual sex as an activity, I said it was commenting on Sandors involvement with it in this particular instance.

Also it seems fairly simple here that we must act on an assumption about why Sandor was disturbed about his action for the PLAIN reason that he has not told us. Can't see how this calls for much debate.

He could be disturbed about it for a number of reasons.

Seems pretty strange to me that a week or so ago someone here said that the Yi thought sex before marriage was a 'no no'. Not one of you except Bradford even batted an eyelid. Now when I say NOT that the Yi approves of casual sex but that in Sandors case in this instance he certainly appears in the eyes of the Yi to have committed no error people start creating false arguments about it - based on what I never said.

And in this thread because its about sex, an issue where people do have fairly strong opinions, peoples assumptions shout loud and clear through their interpretations, and I include myself in that.

For example both Rosada and Micheline and Bruce without stating it directly seem to think that while casual sex is not wrong, sex within a meaningful relationship is preferable, deeper, more satisfying. I quote bruce <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

61.5 I'm thinking is saying to fine tune yourself by hooking up with someone you can relate with on a deeper more satisfying level<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

All three make an assumption the Yi actually thinks a deeper relationship would be something to aim for ? I don't see the Yi as necessarily saying this, though it might be. Just as my take is not necessarily 'true' it just might be.

I thought thats what we were here for to share differing perspectives. My perspective on this answer at this moment is that it is a beautifully simple one, that suggests Sandor need not worry too much, if at all about his desire for casual sex. In other words he need not be disturbed.

Thats my view, I think I'm entitled to it ? Certainly I don't intend to waste energy defending it anymore.

[bruce]

Hi Nicky. You are fresh rain over a dry forest.

Couple things I?d like to respond to:

?I will make new assumptions and test them and people will say things that will resonate with me but blow an idea that I have completely out of the water. But it won't be exactly the same assumptions as you have made, make or will make - it's an individual relationship.?

Beautifully said. We do have to be willing to have ourselves and our prior ideas blown out of the water. And I couldn?t agree more about the essential openness of 4?s qualities. I?m born under hexagram 4. LOL, if I don?t have appreciation for it, I?m in big trouble.

But you know, I?ve never been blown out of the water by flimsy possibilities. It comes more as a lighting bolt! When every possibility becomes equal, and an answer is reduced to the mean, revelation is rendered impotent. I like to be blown out of the water, but I don?t like to be absorbed into the lowest common denominator.

Keep your sincerity, always.

[bruce]

Void, I apologize. Of course, you have every right to voice your views, and I won?t question them again.

[rosada]

On sex and assumptions...
I just watched "The Wedding Crashers". It's a bit of fluff about a couple of guys who crash weddings to meet women who, because of the romantic mood of the day, may be open to casual sex. Of course it follows that one of the fellows finds his perfect match, a girl who is just as into kinky quickies as he is and so he tells her, "I want to take our relationship to the next level." She doesn't realize he's talking marrage but assumes something else:
"Great!" says she, "I have two girlfriends and they'd love to join us in my motel room..."

[sandor]

Hello friends at this I Ching Forum!
First of all, I want to thank you all for sharing so much insight with me.
I?ve found truth in every line you?ve written so far, each accessing a different "issue" in my life.
Also, I?d like to apologize for so many ideas having to be discussed among you.
I used the word "disturbance", yes. My mother tongue is not English, so it might sound kind of weird sometimes, but I meant that for this:
I?ve been into a good relationship with my parter for the past 11 years. That means we are still together. But for the past two years I?ve been ocassionaly having "light" sex once a week or a fortnight... My partner knows I?m in need of looking for adventures... He seems to understand though I never went too deep to inform what my adventures are like and I do think it is irrelevant for they belong to my inner world.
Yes, I might feel a little ashamed of being in need of light sex in face of morality and good standard. But my body seems to take another road and I think I can?t break my self into two different pieces... Problem is acceptance and enjoying life as is.
Thanks again... And sorry if I should have been more explicit before conversations went too far... Sandor.

[pakua]

Hi,

Doesn't 41 speak of the need for reducing the passions?

The only thing I can think of about disturbing your consciousness, is if you're being sincere with your partner.

[bradford_h]

"Doesn't 41 speak of the need for reducing the passions?"

In a more meaningful sense of the metaphor, it speaks of plugging one's leaks, conserving resources and making better use of them. Not avoiding feelings or passions but giving up the wasteful ones and keeping those passions which are doing you some good. Keeping the concentrate. The lake at the foot of the mountain has drained far enough down.

[pakua]

How about, seeking a deep union with others leads to reduction with your partner.

[lightofdarkness]

The 48-ness of 41, 41s source of nourishment is described by 37 - reflecting the distillation/concentration purity of 41 - keep it all in the family so to speak. (and that releases tension)

The skeletal form of 41, its 27-ness, is described by analogy to 07 - the generic sense of uniformity, of 'sameness' across all members of the collective.

Thus 48 sets down foundations as nutriants out of which develops a vague form reflecting generic characteristics of 07 and that form develops into 41 as we know it.

If the distillation process fails then we have literal decrease.

Thus the use of the term 'reduction' includes the refinement, the distillation of the 'pure' form from all of the surrounding rubbish.

Chris