Luck?

[candid]

This is a small question for Brad, or anyone having knowledge of the Chinese language.

The word ?luck? seems to be popular in modern Chinese culture. What is the root of this word, and how does this word tie into I Ching?

[bradford_h]

Hi Candid
Just ran a quick search for luck in my favorite online CE dictionary. None of the characters they gave (mostly three characters all pronounced jiao3) even occur in the Yijing.
The word in the Yi that is sometimes translated good fortune or auspicious (I use promising or fortunate) is Ji2. It's used almost 150 times in the Zhouyi alone. This is from my glossary:
ji2 0476 393a 30+3 01.7 (to be) promising, fortunate, opportune, auspicious, happy, good, felicitous, lucky, timely, fortuitous, favorable, propitious, positive, hopeful; (a, the) opportunity, promise, hope, good auspice (s); luck, good luck, good timing, good fortune, happiness, well-being; (to) bode well, promise, (give) hope (s, ed, ing); all is well; supportive circumstances

Unlike Li4 (worthwhile, rewarding, harvest, etc.) you can have or find Ji2 without having earned it beforehand.

[candid]

Thanks, Brad.

So in 25.3, for example, where the wanderer's gain is the citizen's loss, this is a context of unmerited good fortune, or luck? Of course in the bigger scheme, it's probably more like providence than 'dumb' luck, at least from a personal view. Since the word 'luck' doesn't appear in the original texts, I'd surmise that this too is more in line with good fortune than good luck; that is, a result of prudence and wisdom.

Do you agree?

[candid]

Never mind. After leaving for a couple hours and coming back and reading that, it was a dumb question.

[bradford_h]

Hi Candid
Not a dumb question.
Although the wanderer's gain is De (gain), not Ji.
In several places the Yi tries to disconnect any causal links between meritorious acton and both good fortune (ji) and happiness (xi). It implies that there is a correlation, but one should not act as if good fortune and happiness were secured or guaranteed by good behavior.

[candid]

Well said, Brad. It's what I was trying to affirm, but thought I might be knit picking at nuances.

There is a notion that 'if you do good, then good things will happen to you'; as though it is earned through merit. Virtue does generally lead to merit, but good fortune is extremely relative, and not always recognizable as such. So it is as much recognizing 'luck' as it is giving up entitlement.

Thanks for your input.

[candid]

kicking this tin can a little farther yet...

Then, to the Junzi, good fortune actually does appear as a sort of 'luck'.

[yly2pg1]

Traditionally, the Chinese's way of improving one's well being comprises of:

(1) Ming
(2) Yun
(3) Feng Shui
(4) Accumulate Ying De
(5) Reading

The word "luck" (in Chinese culture) refers to "Yun".
"Yun" means "revolving", in deeper sense the revolving of stars in the sky.
When someone's star is bright, the chinese say "Hau Yun" meaning "Good Luck".


"What is the root of this word, and how does this word tie into I Ching?"

You will not find "Yun" or "luck" in Yi text.
But, "Yun" is tied into I Ching because the "astrology" of I Ching is derived
from the Little Dipper with Polaris as the POINTER.

[candid]

Yly2pg1, thanks.

Can you explain 'Pointer' further as it applies to this? Pointer as a cursor toward what? Destiny or fate? Good/bad fortune/luck?

Is this predetermined or changeable fate or fortune? Or a mixture of two networking?

[yly2pg1]

Some translations for "luck":

hao Yun - Good Luck
huai Yun - Bad luck
cai Yun - Financial luck
tao hua Yun - love luck

[yly2pg1]

Hi Candid,

It is a celestial chart (or Tian Xiang Tu / Image of the sky)

http://www.chinapage.com/astronomy/chart/celestialchart.html

[candid]

Looks.. interesting, Yly2pg1. Just hope I don't have to commit it to memory and time soon. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/irked.gif lol

[yly2pg1]

Some of stuffs i know about:

The handle of the Dipper is acting as the hand of a clock
with Polaris (North Star) as the pointer. The hand will
make one rotation in the sky in one lunar year (with pretty well accuracy
from ancient point of view).

The ancient Chinese identify 28 "stars" and assign an "animal sign" to each star.
(This is shown in one of the chart where you will find 28 characters surround the chart)
One character denotes one animal sign.

The 28 stars is further divided into 4 zones - East, West, North and South
with 7 stars in one zone. Little Dipper itself make up of 7 bright stars "in the middle".
This is how the Chinese come out with 5-ELEMENTs (wu xing).

[candid]

Interesting stuff. People actually sat around figuring this all out thousands of years ago.

As a people, you would think this universal perspective would be represented on popular magazine covers, rather than the latest teen dietress. Yet look at the incredible views we have of the heavens now through Hubble. Something so huge is treated so cavalierly.

So this stars and diagrams of stars, what do they say about fixed fortune? Or destiny?

[yly2pg1]

http://images.google.com.sg/images?hl=zh-CN&oi=pinyin&oq=fu+xi+ba+gua+tu&q=%E4%BC%8F%E7%BE% B2%E5%85%AB%E5%8D%A6%E5%9B%BE&spell=1 (http://images.google.com.sg/images?hl=zh-CN&oi=pinyin&oq=fu%2Bxi%2Bba%2Bgua%2Btu&q=%E4%BC%8 F%E7%BE%B2%E5%85%AB%E5%8D%A6%E5%9B%BE&spell=1)

When you superimpose lo shu and Ba Gua (refer image37 in the link) to the calestial chart,
(and get the direction right), we form the basic framework where Yi is tied up to.

Just another version of Astrology?

[yly2pg1]

And if you look at the image37 (lo shu and Ba Gua), you will find a "cross" in the middle of the chart.

The ancient character of "five" is actually a "cross". (You can also find the five element
in the diagram).

[candid]

Yly2pg1, this is all cool to look at, but if you are showing this to me specially, I'm afraid you're going to have to dumb it down, or explain just what this means to me. Is there a tie-in here to luck or fate, even through speculation or personal philosophical views?

Anyone?

[jerryd]

Hello Candid, Just a small comment on you fate and luck delema from a philosophical perspective which is my own. Luck cannot be other than that which Fate is a predisposition to the culture in which you may live brings to you with out any warning. Predetermination is what some call fate and luck is either good fortune or a degree which is less than good all the way to disasterous./ Opinion and submission the responsibility of the writer.

[yly2pg1]

Some Chinese definitions:

(1) Ming - Fate
(2) Yun - Luck

Most of the time, in chinese language, you will find the term 'Ming Yun' when we talk about fate and luck.

Also, one correction to be made about 'Polaris'.
Polaris is not the pointer of the Little Dipper, the pointer is the 'handle of dipper' itself.

In recent years, there is some findings about Yi when people start to look beyond Yi text. And there is a trend that people start to dispel some of the myth surrounding Yi.

[yly2pg1]

Come back to the "pointer" in the celestial chart(which is the direction of the handle of the little dipper), the direction of the pointer correspond to a season.
For example, when the pointer is pointing at east, it is spring.

A brief matrix:

Four emblems--pointer---season--5-element--------(7-star)

new Yang------east------spring--wood-------------green dragon

old Yang------south-----summer--fire-------------"zhu1 que4"

new Ying------west------autumn--metal------------whitetiger

old Ying------north-----winter--water------------tortoise

--------------middle----4season--earth-----------Little dipper

[yly2pg1]

Come back to the "pointer" in the celestial chart(which is the direction of the handle of the little dipper), the direction of the pointer correspond to a season.
For example, when the pointer is pointing at east, it is spring.

A brief matrix:

Four emblems--pointer---season--5-element--------(7-star)

new Yang------east------spring--wood-------------green dragon

old Yang------south-----summer--fire-------------"zhu1 que4"

new Ying------west------autumn--metal------------whitetiger

old Ying------north-----winter--water------------tortoise

--------------middle----4season--earth-----------Little dipper

[gene]

YLY2

Very interesting about the findings when people look beyond the text. This is something I have contended for a long time, that the Yi Jing, I Ching, is much deeper than anything we here in the west have been able to get a glimpse of. In today's world I am sure that is true of the Chinese also. I have said many times on this site that the Chinese symbols, hieroglyphs, or whatever they should be called, have many meanings besides the obvious. The same thing is true when we try to interpret the old Tai Chi Chuan texts. Even the Chinese don't know what all the meanings are. And even beyond that, there must be another level. We don't get it. Nobody here in the west, and probably in today's world, in the east, is willing to teach us anything about it. If there is anyone left that knows anything about it. We have been looking at this book very superficially. Even those of us who know it well, really don't know it at all. This too is why I insist that this book was not made up by men. It had to come from a source that has much more knowledge and much more wisdom than man does. We cannot even begin to fathom the complexity of this book. I suspect that it came from a civilization that had computer power that is much more advanced than ours. There is no other way. Our scientists, who I believe are not nearly so smart as they think they are, try to tell us that we evolve, and ancient man was ignorant and danced around cave fires. If that is the case, (which it isn't) you have an even bigger problem about where did it come from. There is a higher intelligence, much higher, somewhere.

I would be very interested in finding out about these finding that go beyond the text.

Gene

Gene

[yly2pg1]

Hi Gene,

One example of thinking out of box is the about the "He Tu".

"He Tu" is found to be comprised of "two spirals" in the formation of our Solar System
in 2 different "setting" of 1-3-5-7-9 and 2-4-6-8-10 which gives equilibrium of ying and yang.

[yly2pg1]

http://history.math.fcu.edu.tw/
Refer [1.1] for 'He Tu'

"I suspect that it came from a civilization that had computer power that is much more advanced than ours. There is no other way."

Forget Yi for a while.
It is about the Bell's Lab.
A lot have been said about the invention of "npn" and "pnp" in the late 40s.
I went thru some articles which give strong evedience of 'reverse engineering'...

End of the day, it is about a 'blueprint' from a higher civilization.
A blueprint that underlies some of the major bibles in our human world ...

[gene]

Hi YLY2

I have to admit, sometimes I am not sure of what you are trying to say in total, but I get the overall idea...

"A blueprint that underlies some of the major bibles"

I doubt there is anyone in the world who has a real grasp on the intricacies of the Hebrew language, where The Torah, and the Christian old testament comes from. Each letter has entire sentences of meaning, and in each word there are entire paragraphs of meaning. And that is only for starters. I am going to try to look up a website that links the Hebrew letters with musical notes, also hand signals... And a number of things. There is an entire field of gematria involved. (Words having numerical equivalences, and involving geometric patterns - Biblical Greek does this also) There is also a major dispute going on right now about whether there is a sequencing effect in the Hebrew too, perhaps in the Greek also. In other words, in many cases, every 50th letter makes up a word. (Under certain rules, of course.) Then words cluster around other words to give prophecies, etc. I will try to get some websites on this.

Gene

[gene]

YLY2

As far as reverse engineering. This has happened. We did not have TV until after world war two. We had already developed radar so it was a logical step. Nevertheless, much of our computer expertise came from reverse engineering of crashed UFO's. I know there are a lot of people even on this discussion board that do not wish to believe such things. But this is in fact, very very true. In June of 1947 a UFO crashed in the New Mexico desert, and the military quickly took it away. Since then there have been many discoveries involving reverse engineering, and much is still going on. It is also true that high level federal projects involve physics that is far beyond anything the population would imagine. They had a language that seems to be hieroglyphic in nature, but I do not remember for sure if it was similar to an earth language. It has been a long time since I have had any involvement with this. I have heard rumors that the same thing has happened recently in China. Don't know if this is true or not. There is also evidence that this happened in Germany shortly before the Nazi's took over. I find all this fascinating.

Gene

[martin]

I'm not sure about this reverse engineering story, although I'm prepared to give it the benefit of the doubt.
But - and that is more important, I think - the basic idea is right, many discoveries do not originate in our minds. They come from somewhere else.
It's not like somebody gives you a piece of paper with some formulas or diagrams on it, though.http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[gene]

A society has to be sufficiently evolved in order to reverse engineer. The blueprints are not laid out in any fashion. What is required is an understanding of the basics of physics, including a knowledge of electromagnetism. Then when looking at an engine, look for a piston, if one is not there, then what else might propel? If it is so far advanced we can't conceptualize what it might be, as someone from the stone age, let's suppose, might not be able to do if he looked at a jet fighter, not knowing anything about electricity, or propulsion systems they would not have a clue what they were looking at. If a child gets into a car and unlocks the brakes, he might get an idea what that particular part is for. Maybe. Anyway, that is the concept of reverse engineering. It is not looking at blue prints. On the other hand, I do believe in the case at Roswell, NM, our engineers and code breakers did break the language code on computer printouts. They may have been able to get further information that way, I do not know. I first learned about this years ago, long before the present frenzy of books came out about Roswell. The information I had did indicate they deciphered the language. One interesting thing came out. Don't know if it is true or not. Total speculation, but from what I read about the language, "The gods (aliens) are coming back in the year 2010." That is just a quote. I don't hold to it or against it.

Gene

[martin]

I should have added that it is also not like someone gives you a machine for reverse engineering or a text in code. Although that may happen sometimes it's probably exceptional. What is usually transmitted is an essential idea, at least as far as I know based on my own experience (not scientific or technical in my case). And it's left to the human mind to work out the details.
These ideas are not complicated, they are very simple although they are difficult (or even impossible) to find for a human mind.
A good example is Einstein perhaps. I don't know what really happened in his case but it looks like he received the essential ideas of relativity already in his childhood. As a child he had fantasies about traveling through the universe on a light beam. Later he had a kind of intuition that told him that there was more - a unified theory. He searched for it all his life, but it escaped him, at least in this sense that he couldn't translate his intuition into the mathematical language that is required in the scientific community.
Where did that intuition come from? I don't know, but I suspect that he received it. He _knew_ that there was a unified theory.

[gene]

Yeah

There is so much there. I understand Einstein couldn't do simple math problems, like if you made $10 an hour and worked 40 hours, how much did you make? That may not be true, but the text books say it is, yet he could conceptualize universal truths in a way that defies explanation I think. Later on, he could put them to the math test. I personally don't think Einstein was correct on some things, (although that could be because I misunderstand him) but I do think he was on the right track.

Martin, you might be interested in this website, (which I posted a minute ago in another topic.

http://www.aetherometry.com/EAintro_aether.html

Gene

[martin]

I don't know where this rumor that Einstein was a lousy mathematician comes from. It isn't true, he was a brilliant mathematician. What is true, however, is that he sometimes needed certain advanced mathematical theories that he was not very familiar with because physicists in those days rarely or never used them. So he consulted and worked with mathematicians now and then.

[gene]

Martin

From what the textbooks say, he was an excellent mathematician except when it came to very simple problems. I don't know where it came from either. The point I think they were trying to make is that he was way too far involved in far reaching math problems to concern himself with the simple stuff.

Gene

[martin]

Aether - this is confusing, because physicists and mystics use the word in a different way.
For physicists it was the supposed medium through which light waves travel. Because other waves need a medium (sound needs air for instance) people believed that light - when it was discovered that it had wave properties - also needed a medium. But experiments around 1900 suggested that there was no medium for light, at least nothing that was comparable to air in relation to sound. So the aether-hypothesis was dropped.
But does this mean that the 'aether' of the mystics was also declared nonexistent? I don't think so. That aether is not the aether of the physicists. It has very little to do with it, in fact. Same word, totally different meanings.

[martin]

It's possible that Einstein had troubles with "7*8=?", I don't know. But there is a story about a mathematician who was asked to solve a problem. There were two ways to calculate the result, one was very simple, the other was very complicated.
The mathematician produced the right answer nearly instantly. Of course, said the other man, you immediately saw the simple solution, most people do it this way, and he described the complicated calculation.
The mathematician looked at him and said, yes, exactly, that's how I did it. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[jte]

A thought, Gene -

"Our scientists ... try to tell us that we evolve, and ancient man was ignorant and danced around cave fires. If that is the case, (which it isn't) you have an even bigger problem about where did [the Yi] come from. There is a higher intelligence, much higher, somewhere. "

I'm not disagreeing with your final point there, but it's worth pointing out that those primitive men probably were much closer to nature and it's patterns and forces than we are today. They probably interpreted and thought about a lot of phenomena very differently from how we do.

So, they may have been so keenly observant of nature and so open-minded about how it works that use of oracular methods like the Yi to "get advice" from nature/the universe occured to them without input from higher intelligences.

Then again, I could be wrong. =)

- Jeff

[yly2pg1]

"I have to admit, sometimes I am not sure of what you are trying to say in total,
but I get the overall idea... "

It may create upsets if one has a strong notion of 'god'.
If one is a yogis, a shaman, a tibetan buddhist, a monk etc. probably the kind of notion here has little or lesser psychological impact esp. when we talk about the BLUEPRINT.

Before Christian and Buddhism come to china, the god of chinese (in its true sense)
is found in the 'functionality' of daily affairs which embraces all aspects of life.

Today, it has become a habit and attitude, practical n economical,
willing to adapt as long as it brings benefits and well beings.
The God has taken root too.
For example, Buddha is prayed as a God,
rather than a being who is free from the Samsara world, a world "bonded" with conditions.

(And this attitude is what Mao trying to eradicate from the chinese's mind, to make himself a god and to make communism firmly take shape in the 'old' Middle Kingdom with Yi-culture).

[yly2pg1]

"I am going to try to look up a website that links the Hebrew letters with musical notes, also hand signals...
And a number of things.
There is an entire field of gematria involved.
(Words having numerical equivalences, and involving geometric patterns - Biblical Greek does this also) "

Same applies to Yi.

The traditional chinese world (before a general reform in education system in 1912), is practically a Yi culture where science, mathematics, chinese character, medicine, musical notation, philosophy and thought etc are originated from! The chinese calls the process "evolution"[Yan3 Yi4].

Yi-related culture is suppressed among chinese during the rule of Manchus from 1644 onwards.
But, the appreciation of 'Dao De Jing' is a must for Manchu higher officials. And ironically, confucianism is highly placed for the Han (the chinese) to institute the family values
with the intention to curb rebellion. Hence the "evolution" process in many areas since then is retarded.

[yly2pg1]

"Is there a tie-in here to luck or fate, even through speculation or personal philosophical views? "


What is FATE (MING)?

The 'Trigram' is a 'schema' (which i hv leant here) in one of a thread.
http://www.yijing.co.uk/papers/technical.html

In our times, a schematic drawing is used to define eletronic circuitry.
But, anyone ever realise 'FATE' is indeed a kind of schematic diagram?

Take the following "H-Bridge diagram" as an example:
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public/Motors/H-Bridges/HBridge_NPN-PNP.gif

In Yi Text, there are 4 characters which will often appear in a changing line:

Ji[2] ----- auspicious
Wu[2] jiu[4] - no error
hui[3]------regret
xiong[1]----disaster

In "H-Bridge Diagram", the following pattern is observed which we can draw an analogy:
(it is about the flow of charge btw two nodes of the "H" in the middle of the drigram)

10---auspicious
00---no error
01---regret
11---disaster

If this is true, we can derive an analogy btw electronic components and trigrams:

COMPONENT___TRIGRAM
npn---------Fire/Water?
pnp---------Fire/Water?
grounding---Earth
power-------Heaven
inductor----?
capacitor---?
resistor----Mountain
?-----------?

[gene]

Martin

I understand what you mean about two types of aethers. Look at Richard Hoagland's http://www.enterprisemission.com/hurricane1.htm
and see what he says about the aether. The idea of an aether is an old old idea that is basically metaphysical in nature. But science has become ruled by people who want to throw anything metaphysical out of it, for reasons I won't go into now, and as such "throw out the baby with the bathwater." How many times have you heard, "There is no scientific evidence for..." What does that mean? Science doesn't even know what gravity is, they only know what it does. The same is true with electromagnetism. Saying there is no scientific evidence for something is the same as saying, we are too ignorant of the subject to discuss it. The high priests of science. Nothing but a joke.And science has taken us out of the dark ages? Give me a break. Not meaning to be cruel to anyone's science knowledge here. I love science. And I love to discuss science. And I've had some significant discussions with physicists in the past about some things.I love hyperdimensional physics, string theory, quantum theory. But any physicist who thinks he/she understands it is barking up the wrong tree. We aren't even out of the forest yet. We are running blind. What egotism the scientific world has.

And Jte, yes I agree with you. They were more in touch, but even more...How did Jonathan Swift know about the two moons of Mars before there were telescopes? How did primitive man come up with a system of understanding the stars in 3000 BC? How did they know about the precession of the equinoxes? And I could go on and on. There have been tribes in Africa found when white men first started coming who knew things about star systems that can't be seen with the naked eye. The scientific priesthood tried to tell us, "oh they were influenced by missionaries who came earlier." Which is just plain ridiculous. It's like telling a pilot he was chasing the planet Venus when he reports a UFO. Any schoolboy knows that Venus can only be seen no longer than 48 minutes, (one day out of the year) either after the sun has gone done or before it comes up in the sky because Venus never gets more than 48 degrees from the sun. But people believe this stuff. Because they never think. Where did the ancients get this knowledge? But no one ever thinks about it.

Gene

[martin]

Yes Gene, that is the problem, science as a method to discover the truth is beautiful but science as an institution is unfortunately all too often dominated by arrogant nitwits. They will tell you that evolution according to Darwin is a "fact", that consciousness is merely an artifact of brain activity, that those who believe or know that we have a soul are stupid and superstitious, and so on, and so on.
And what is perhaps worse is that so many people look up to these nitwits and believe every word they say. "Scientists say that .. so it is true".
As far as I'm concerned, it's not very different from religious fundamentalism and bible banging.

[yly2pg1]

"Science doesn't even know what gravity is, they only know what it does.
The same is true with electromagnetism."

"And what is perhaps worse is that so many people look up to these nitwits and
believe every word they say. "Scientists say that .. so it is true".
As far as I'm concerned, it's not very different from religious fundamentalism and
bible banging."

The 'BLUEPRINT' is very much intact!!!

[yly2pg1]

THE BLUEPRINT

Something is valuable about human being - his "mind property".
This can be found in the Buddhist scripture.

Human mind is so special that his mind 'spectrum' could be 'molded' to
fit into 'ALL' the upper realms (hyper-dimensions?). Only at human realm
that this process could be reached. In short, human mind exhibits a wide spectrum of
properties which could be 'tapped'.

The higher civilizations is aware of this. And 'they' hv come to develop a way
to 'intercept' the mind spectrum. And this where the BLUEPRINT starts.
The blueprint is devised so that the mind spectrum could fit into their
'specifications' for specific social role and arrangement.
There will be occasions when new set of specification is introduced.

A pious follower of a b**** will probably be 'destined' to a 'partcular' dimension.
However, an independent mind, shaman, yogis, monk etc may not be that 'lucky'
coz their mind spectrum may fall outside the 'specifications'.

BTW, strictly speaking Yi is not so much a b****.
The God in Yi is 'functionality'.

[yly2pg1]

Some opinion about 'Node' and 'Meridian' in Tai Chi.

'Node and Meridian' is a 'interfacing system' where mind interfaces with body.
In my opinion, certain nodes in this system is 'connected' to other dimensions.
The 'strength' of this connection with certain dimension prediposes individual
to make his/her own judgement and preference.

[martin]

Yes, that makes sense and what is more, when you say that it feels as if you are looking from other dimensions, from outside the box, so to speak. There is a lot of open space in it.
I guess you know very well, from personal experience, what it means to fall outside 'specifications'. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[martin]

One could perhaps say that some theories, some models of the universe, also have 'nodes' that connect it to other dimensions.
One problem with current scientific models is often that these connections are rather weak or nonexistent. Most or all doors to inner space remain closed, even if the model accounts for the vastness of outer space.
This 'inner' lack of space is, I think, related to a grasping attitude toward knowledge and understanding. It is as if one is afraid that the truth will escape, so one tries to imprison it in theoretical cages.

[martin]

Open science is somewhat like what is described in line 5 of hexagram 8, I think. It allows the truth to escape.
But of course there is no need to 'shoot' the truth and if you let it escape it will probably return to you sooner or later. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[jerryd]

To hold a truth as unyealding and unchangeable is perhaps the biggest mistake man has made over time. Denying there are no absolutes is the second biggest mistake.

[gene]

Hi everyone

I thought you all would jump on me about my blunder re: Venus. It is true it never gets more than 48 degrees away from the sun, but that doesn't mean it is only visible for 48 minutes. I don't know what I was thinking. However, the overall point I still believe in, that Venus is not that visible all that often, and there is only a small window...

Anyway... I like the way you phrase it Martin, about the problem with science. And it is very interesting about the "fact" of evolution, as every theory proposed has crumbled in the onrush of evidence, yet, "It can't be wrong."

"God as functionality" ... speaking of which...the "superior" man, the "noble" man in the I Ching understands the functionality of the time and acts in accord with it. This is what makes him/her noble or superior. When I first started to write a book on the I Ching, "which was later lost in a computer crash" the main theme of the book was the "functionality" of time, or how all things follow a "sine wave" Good times, bad times, and how the superior noble one applies himself in such situations. Now I am slowly evolving a book again on slightly a different tack. Hopefully this time I will eventually be able to carry it through to completion.

Gene

[gene]

I do fear a lot of criticism in writing a book on the I Ching since I don't know the original Chinese language, but the book is not going to be a line for line diagnosis as such anyway, but the concepts will hopefully be timeless and beyond the scope of a commentary.

Gene

[gene]

YLY2

I am not sure how you are defining node and meridian. Are you speaking of the accupressure points and the chi meridians of the body? Just curious. As such, I can see how you can consider them an interfacing system. As I see it, Ch'i is a universal flow of some indefinable kind of energy, or more than energy, an awareness force...

And this relates as much to another thread, somewhere here, where I replied to Hilary about the thunder in the earth.... A simple example people can do with practice that will show them the reality of yin chi being cold, and yang being hot, also that yin refers to inside as yang to outside.

Practice this only until you can do it, unless you have a good grasp of integrating yin and yang in the body, but it should be safe. Take deep breaths in and out, and as you breath, make sure you breathe from the lower abdomin. Your abdomin should expand as you breathe in and contract as you breath out. Now, after a few breaths, imagine that you are breathing right through the skin in the palm of your hands. Some will feel it right away, others it will take practice to sense it. Your imagination must be strong, meditative. With practice you will begin to feel a sense of energy flowing into your hands. Now, feel this energy as you breathe in, and as you breathe out. When you breathe in, you will begin to feel your hands becoming slightly cooler, as you breathe out, you will begin to feel your hands become slightly hotter. Why? Because breathing in is yin, breathing out is yang. We have the indication that yin is within in hexagram 37, Forget the maleness femaleness of it, and just remember that female refers to yin and male to yang. The central line in the lower hexagram is yin, and it tells us that the yin should be within. Yin is inside, yang is outside. This exercise though, will give you a feeling of the reality of this.

Gene

[yly2pg1]

"Now I am slowly evolving a book again on slightly a different tack."

BTW, i like the word 'evolving' here.
This is how the Yi works.
It evolves over a period of time and you will be surprised how far it will bring you to!

And a rigid pre-conceived notion will sometimes retard the evolutions.

[yly2pg1]

"I do fear a lot of criticism in writing a book on the I Ching since I don't know the original Chinese language,
but the book is not going to be a line for line diagnosis as such anyway,
but the concepts will hopefully be timeless and beyond the scope of a commentary."

Yi gives Hex19.2
Probably a promising one!

In the context of timeless value of writing, you need a 'blueprint'... constructing your OWN blueprint,
and leave the details for a while coz the functionality of time will bring back the pieces ... into the blueprint itself.

[prynne]

a human conciousness being siphoned off by another race, fate the border of that's race's etheric country, or playpen, the blueprint for yogis are mandalas, mantras...I had a dream last night standing in a school with scientist who explained how we humans were seeded...they showed viral strains that were found billions of years ago on this planet

[gene]

Thanks Yly2

Hi Prynne

That's exactly how it happened, as in your dream. Though people don't want to believe that, we were truly seeded by an alien race. A special creation. By the way, a look at the book of Genesis reveals that there were two creations of man, not just one. A look at the Hebrew shows that a different name was used for God in each case also. Compare Genesis two with Genesis one.

Gene

[prynne]

Fascinating Gene. The Hebrew seems to have a narrow scope, it seems likely there were more than two. Compare the map of early Babylon, the language of the Sumerians, the Annunaki, to the Maps YLy2pg1 posted.

[gene]

Hi Prynne

The Hebrew is very terse, and yet it says a lot with a little. The Sumerians were much more detailed in their description of how it happened. If the Sumerians had codes in their language though, I am not aware of anyone who has deeply delved into them. But there is a good chance they did. The Torah I believe is a metaphysical alchemical text and not just a history book. That may be true of the Sumerian's texts too though. And part of this war in Iraq, I know many people out there won't believe it, but part of the reason it was fought was to make sure the public does not get access to many of the ancient sumerian documents, and make sure that our military does. The documentation for military hardware on a very high technological level is probably in those documents. The same thing is true in India, some of their ancient documents give details descriptions of how to create the technology for flying machines such as UFO's. In area 51, (you can do a google search on this,) the U.S. military has experimental machines that are antigravity devices based on cooperation with alien races. Some of it is due to reversed engineeering also. Rumor has it that India too, has created these machines, based on ancient manuscripts. There is a strong possibilty also that Russia and China have them.

Gene

[martin]

Seth about Sumerians:

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

Your present civilization and the ?old? Sumerian civilization, exist at once, then simultaneously, but to speak to you about these I must use a time sequence you understand. If it were understood that these civilizations exist at once, then you would not be so surprised that they ?were? able to build structures that you cannot build in your now.

Your now and their now exists now.

In the present physical area in which it seems to you that a physical civilization once existed, that civilization still exists. You cannot meet it though you stand at the same spot, because of the ideas of time that separate you. The civilization in flower, and the ruins, coexist. The living ancient Sumerians pass the modern tourists without seeing them, even as the tourists walk in the middle of the old Sumerian marked places and see only ruins.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Love that. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif
Maybe one could say that the Sumerians exist in a kind of parallel universe or on a frequency that is close to ours but not exactly the same.
I suspect that a Sumerian machine would not be very useful here because it would probably slip in and out of our reality all the time. Kind of uncontrolled stealth.
Perhaps that can also explain why UFO's seem to behave rather odd.

[gene]

Martin

I don't know if you have bothered to look at the ascension2000.com website, but a lot of it is based on, or quotes the Seth material. Since we are all one, there is no separation, there is also no separation in time. Hence it all happens at once. We still could find weapons hidden in the sand in our time/space illusion though, and that is in reality, one of the truer reasons we are over there fighting. As Richard Hoagland says though, "even if we found it, we wouldn't know how to use it." Well, they don't understand the UFO's propulsion systems yet either, but we are getting much closer. Soon, antigravity flying will be par for the course, even in commercial aviation. The popular tv series called "Stargate" (the original show was about the Egyptian pyramids, and finding a code that revealed a stargate that could be entered, and put us immediately on a different planet), is based partly on this technology, and what little has been so far discovered. Often these sci fi thrillers, are closer to reality than we care to believe.

Gene

[gene]

An interesting website:

http://www.williamhenry.net/

Gene

[yly2pg1]

THEY'RE ALREADY HERE

http://waroftheworlds.com/

[prynne]

If we would deliver ourselves from our toe the friend would come.

Gene, two creations of human? Can you explain?

[yly2pg1]

During cold war, the material of the MiG is always a matter of great interest to the US military!

It is said the material do not have "squeak and rattle" problem at high Mach. Probably some lesson learnt from the debris in Siberia.

"Two creations of human"
There are few theories. Like to listen more!

[prynne]

Yes, I eagerly await till Gene arrives in the Library. My heart goes out to you Gene, in your tribulations. By the way, I have heard that some are able to clear knee and joint pain through fasting. If you are able. Some cannot go without food, you may have that type of disposition.

My feeling, too, is that there are a few theories. I also have the feeling, that as soon as one completely 'bites' into the 'apple' of the theory, one has not seen the whole truth. It is only when one theory presents itself as destiny that truth will fit the jacket.

This does not mean that I dont think what we call aliens, angels, gods, will materialize (either from 'out there' or 'in here', Thank you Martin, for the quote from Seth. ) in the year 2012. Where did these metals come from, in Siberia, in the desert in America.

This perspective:

"There seems little doubt that the Chaldean Anu and the Sanskrit Anu (atom) are identic in origin. Anu is a title of the formative Brahma who philosophically is often envisaged as the cosmic atom or infinite universe. The mystical significance is the ever-invisible, unreachable divine center -- whether of a being or universe -- which is the divine-spiritual focus of essential consciousness, from which flow forth all the streams of consciousness in its multiform varieties. Anu (Sanskrit) As a noun, an atom of matter; as an adjective, atomic, fine, minute. A title of Brahma, conceived as both infinitesimal and universal, thus pointing to the pantheistic character of divinity. Hence, every Anu is "a centre of potential vitality, with latent intelligence in it" (SD 1:567; cf FSO 273-5, 431). In the Bhagavad-Gita (8:9) Arjuna is enjoined to meditate on the "seer," i.e., the enlightened, omniscient One, who is "more atomic than the atom" (anor aniyamsam) and yet "the supporter of all" (cf VP 1:2, 5:1; ChU 3:14, 3-4, Katha 2:20, MU 3:1, 7). "

from the website: http://rgrace.org/100/110anu.html

[prynne]

Also, a hesitation about creation-ism. "Not a good beginning, but a good end".

[martin]

Jane Roberts, the medium of Seth, also visited libraries sometimes, but those were inner libraries. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif
I have visited ascension2000.com, Gene, and I don't see much similarity between the Seth material and the material that is presented there.
I wrote in another post in this thread that our sciences sometimes suffer from a lack of inner space and I feel a similar lack of inner space (and freedom) when I read this and related websites and books. In general there is a tendency to project things outward that really don't belong there.
Spaceships (crashed or in the air), ancient tools buried somewhere in a desert, texts in code, portals like the one in Stargate, revolutionary events in the near future, and so on, it is good stuff for science fiction books and movies, but ..
And I wouldn't underestimate the government of the US and other governments. Remains of Sumerian technology in Iraq? They know very well that it doesn't work that way.

[gene]

Well, I am in an internet coffee shop right now. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of material right now about the two creations. This was brought up to me years ago in college by a very intelligent, highly intelligent Jewish fellow. I didn't think much of it til later on. Then recently, I saw a book at Borders that went into this in detail. I hope to stop off at Borders tonight and look for that book. I don't have a Bible with me right now, and I can't quote much, but if you read the first chapter of Genesis, and compare it to the second chapter, you will see that the sequence of the creation in the two chapters is different. Also, I think, but don't quote me on this, that in the first chapter the term G*d is used, where in the second chapter, the term Lord G*d is used. There are many possibilities inherent in the terminology, but one meaning that is not beyond the scope of possibilities is the Lord refers to the chief of the gods. Kind of like a general or admiral. The translations of the Sumerian done by Zachariah Sitchin would summarize this in a sense in that according to the Sumerian texts, genetic engineering was performed on a hominid that was already present on the earth, This was done by th3e chief science officer of the annunaki. A battle evolved between Enki, the chief science officer and Enlil, his half brother, about the proper use and functionality of the newly created human. Much of this story is controversial not in its overall perspective, but in many of the details. I am not sure that all of the Sumerian language has been correctly translated, doesn't mean though it is just plain wrong.

Gene

[gene]

Martin

If you do a google search on the site, you will find several hits on Seth. Here is one small example of the connection.

http://ascension2000.com/Shift-of-the-Ages/shift06.htm

And a quote:

For the rest of this chapter, we will present the words of Seth from the appendix section of ?The Seth Material,? which help us to understand how the basic spherical units of energy in the Cosmos interact with each other. It took us several years to actually match up all of this information with scientific data, but now as we conclude the three volumes of the series, we have found some degree of proof for almost every point that Seth had made back in 1969. This original text was invaluable in helping us to understand what was going on, as it provided crucial data that was missing in Ra?s own Law of One series. In order to avoid repeating the phrase ?[emphasis added],? the reader should be advised that almost all italicized or bolded portions of text were added by this author after-the-fact, in order to help enhance comprehension. When we write ?Note:? followed by text in parentheses, these are our comments added in.

Gene

[gene]

I like the grace site, thanks for that link.

Gene

[gene]

Thank you Prynne for that information about fasting. I used to fast on a regular basis, but as time and life went by I got out of it, and have not had the discipline to do it in the last few years. I did have an operation on my right knee a few years ago, when, while practicing certain kinds of martial arts steps, I tore some cartilege. There is absolutely no excuse for someone with my knowledge to have arthritis in the knees, yet I do, very minor, but there nontheless. I expect that I tore cartilege again, but this time, I have no idea how. Had I been consistent in practicing tai chi over the years, and not so dependent on the eating of meat, (especially for a virgo rising who has some trouble digesting meats) I would never have developed any arthritis. I will say this though, that all my parents and grandparents suffered terribly from arthritis when they were my age, but my situation is very mild. When my right knee was operated on, the doctors said they have never found anyone over the age of 50 that did not have some arthritis in the knees. When I had my operation, there were two other people at the office where I worked that had the same operation from the same doctor at around the same time. After they were operated on they were on crutches for at least a month. After my operation I was playing basketball a week later and never used crutches. (I did have a minor setback though from playing basketball and my supervisor at work said, no more basketball for you.) They also gave me some pain killer pills which I never needed and never took. As an adult I have never even taken an aspirin or a bufferin. So I am doing something right, but I still do a lot of things wrong and am paying the price for it. If it doesn't go away, I am going to have to go to the VA Hospital to have an mri done. I may have to have another operation.

Thanks,
Gene

[prynne]

Gene, does not seem like fasting is the cure for your knee. Rehab, Prana.

Martin, how did Jane gain access to those libraries? Edgar Caycee talks about them.

[martin]

I don't remember exactly how Jane got access to these libraries, Prynne. I believe it was part of her own excursions into the unknown, more or less independent of Seth.
There are quotes of the Seth material on the ascension2000 site but I don't think that Jane would be very happy with the overall atmosphere of the site and their conclusions. The Seth material is certainly much deeper and more subtle than this.
I don't know what to make of Wilcock. He seems to be a kind of crackpot guru and he can be interesting sometimes. Still, I wouldn't take him too seriously.

[gene]

One place you can get a good discussion about the two creations is in a book called, "The Genesis Race, by Will Hart.

Gene

[yly2pg1]

" In the Bhagavad-Gita (8:9) Arjuna is enjoined to meditate on the "seer," i.e., the enlightened, omniscient One, who is "more atomic than the atom" (anor aniyamsam) and yet "the supporter of all" (cf VP 1:2, 5:1; ChU 3:14, 3-4, Katha 2:20, MU 3:1, 7). "

This is about the same as what is said in Falun Gong. I have no difficulty to come to see the truth. I think 'a more atomic than a atom' also refer to a realm, a hyper-dymension, where beings (like seer in this case) are much more refined and 'penetrating' than we are.

Having come this point about the refined world and refined body, i personally believe the physical built-up of the alien is very sensitive, not only to the ambient of the earth, but also to the mental activity of our human race. Due to the extreme entropies created via our human race mental activity, it posts a kind of harmful effect to the 'fine atom' of their body. To rid off this effect, a periodic cleansing is carried out via some of the phenomenons, e.g. the hurricane.

[prynne]

This makes so much sense! Now I understand much more... Chi/Prana/Omni-Science counter acts entropy. This is why the peaceful mind of the sages and yogis is helpful to the conditions of this realm....the saying about one candle, in the dark. This must be why the YiJing likes it so much, is so happy (it seems to me) if one can keep one's happiness and peace for others during a crisis. "Your mind should be stable even if the sky falls."

[yly2pg1]

Negative entropy is not achievable by our current science and technology! And Prynne, you are right about the counter acts of entropy! It is a candle in the dark, a 'vacuum' the in polluted world, the 'Dan Tian' in the practice of Chi Gong, the 'eye' of the hurricane ... the lists go on.

[gene]

Fits right in with Richard Hoagland's hyperdimensional physics.

http://www.enterprisemission.com/hyper1.html

And junk DNA, apparently junk dna is not so junk. It takes information into and out of dimensions which we are consciously not aware of, and because of this we can change, with effort, our dna.

Gene

[gene]

In the I Ching, pretty much all the pairs of hexagrams relate to entropy. Involution and evolution. One of the best examples is the pair 23 and 24. 63 and 64 are also very clear on this. In the Bible the story of the Prodigal son relates to this and so does the descent of the Hebrew tribe into and then out of Egypt. So also the birth of Jesus, going into Egypt then back out. I am not too familiar with Hinduism but I believe they have the three powers? One is the Shiva, I believe, the destroyer, and one is a creator? and there is a third, can't remember if it is a neutral power or what. Somewhat like the proton, electron, and neutron. Or in Christianity, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, (mother).

Gene

[gene]

Hi Prynne

Very true. Mind must remain stable. This is what the pair of hexagrams 51 and 52 is all about. In fifty one, he does not let the sacrificial spoon fall, although there is terror all about. In 52 he remains still. There are so many ways the I Ching teaches us this too.

Thoughts are things. I am certainly not a rich man, so it may seem like I don't know what I am talking about. But I have nevertheless created my life with the thoughts that I think deep down inside. We all do, whether we realize it or not. If we are nervous, if we are tense, we are focused on what we don't want. When we are focused on what we don't want we bring it to us. Thoughts are things. When we become cool, calm, collected, relaxed, we are thinking positively even down in the subconscious mind, this brings those conditions to us. This is what confidence really is, it is not the arrogance that many seem to mistake it for. Arrogance is only a coverup for fear.

There are only two forces in the universe. Love and fear, and they are opposites. You either attract what you love, or you attract what you fear. Later, I hope to get into this more in relation to hexagram 61, for now, let's just say, "a crane calling in the shade." There is no proton, there is no electron, there is no neutron, but thinking makes it so. So when we are calm and collected, we create the illusion of reality that we want. This is the real meaning of the story of Jesus calming the waves. It wasn't to proove he was God. It was to show us the way. Also, this is the meaning of the saying, to him that has shall be given even more, and to him that hath not shall be taken even that he has. For coming from love produces, coming from fear takes away. It is as simple as that.

"For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he."
Proverbs.

[prynne]

Bhrama, creator. Vishnu, sustainer.

[prynne]

Gene. DNA.

Gene therapy. I like your thoughts. 51,52, very interesting.

[pakua]

Hi all,

Can I get back to the heading of this thread for a minute?

If good luck can't be caused by any action, can it be caused by thought? One would think so, if you read those new agey things that go something like "you attract what you think about", but I'm getting the sense that it's entirely random, and can't be influenced.

I'm thinking where it says in IC "good fortune", even that is not for certain, unless you get into the right attitude, but in that case, it's already "pre-ordained" by the times.

Any thoughts?

[prynne]

Sure just a second though Pakua, I wanted to post this for Gene and anyone who is interested. What Gene has written here is in sync with gnostic beliefs, that the creation was a mistake, that divine spark is imprisoned here, that the secret gnosis is the way for the spark to be reunited with it's divine creation:

The Apocryphon of John gnostic text:

"Now I have come to teach you what is and what was and what will come to pass, that you may know the things which are not revealed and those which are revealed, and to teach you concerning the unwavering race of the perfect Man. Now, therefore, lift up your face, that you may receive the things that I shall teach you today, and may tell them to your fellow spirits who are from the unwavering race of the perfect Man."

And I asked to know it, and he said to me, "The Monad is a monarchy with nothing above it. It is he who exists as God and Father of everything, the invisible One who is above everything, who exists as incorruption, which is in the pure light into which no eye can look.

"He is the invisible Spirit, of whom it is not right to think of him as a god, or something similar. For he is more than a god, since there is nothing above him, for no one lords it over him. For he does not exist in something inferior to him, since everything exists in him. For it is he who establishes himself. He is eternal, since he does not need anything. For he is total perfection. He did not lack anything, that he might be completed by it; rather he is always completely perfect in light. He is illimitable, since there is no one prior to him to set limits to him. He is unsearchable, since there exists no one prior to him to examine him. He is immeasurable, since there was no one prior to him to measure him. He is invisible, since no one saw him. He is eternal, since he exists eternally. He is ineffable, since no one was able to comprehend him to speak about him. He is unnameable, since there is no one prior to him to give him a name.

"He is immeasurable light, which is pure, holy (and) immaculate. He is ineffable, being perfect in incorruptibility. (He is) not in perfection, nor in blessedness, nor in divinity, but he is far superior. He is not corporeal nor is he incorporeal. He is neither large nor is he small. There is no way to say, 'What is his quantity?' or, 'What is his quality?', for no one can know him. He is not someone among (other) beings, rather he is far superior. Not that he is (simply) superior, but his essence does not partake in the aeons nor in time. For he who partakes in an aeon was prepared beforehand. Time was not apportioned to him, since he does not receive anything from another, for it would be received on loan. For he who precedes someone does not lack, that he may receive from him. For rather, it is the latter that looks expectantly at him in his light.

"For the perfection is majestic. He is pure, immeasurable mind. He is an aeon-giving aeon. He is life-giving life. He is a blessedness-giving blessed one. He is knowledge-giving knowledge. He is goodness-giving goodness. He is mercy and redemption-giving mercy. He is grace-giving grace, not because he possesses it, but because he gives the immeasurable, incomprehensible light. "

on so on and so on. you get the picture.

[gene]

Hi Pakua

I think some of what I wrote immediately above does relate to this. Ultimately, there is no luck, good bad or indifferent, there is none whatsoever. Anything that comes to us comes to us from a conscious universe that responds to our vibrations. It does not seem like it, because it is subconscious thought that does it, not conscious. It is only until we have experienced the death of the ego, (Christ on the cross) that we rip the veil between the conscious and the subconscious. (And the veil of the temple was rent from top to bottom) This is also expressed in the story of the marriage at Cana as a symbol of the marriage of subconscious and conscious. When this happens we have mastery, and can think any thought we want, and when we do this we truly create our own reality. But don't get me wrong, what is in the subconscious has been in some indirect way, at some time been put there by the conscious mind. Whatever our dominant thoughts are, they become our beliefs. When we understand this, then we are able to totally forgive ourselves. And that is the way out, the only way out. For when we forgive ourselves, we forgive others, and when we forgive others we forgive ourselves. For there is no separation. None whatsoever. Whatever you see outside of yourself, no matter what it is, is you. It is merely a screen, a projection, like a movie projected onto a screen. "All the world is a stage, and we each one in our own times play many parts." The trick is to sit back and enjoy the show. Develop that part of you that is an observer, and look upon yourself and your actions objectively. Then it doesn't matter if you are rich or poor, you just sit back and enjoy the show, and the nice thing is, the plot in the movie begins to change. It changes when we no longer identify with it. We are simply observers of ourselves. The perceiver that perceives, and thus creates the reality that is out there. There is no such thing as luck.

Gene

[gene]

Hi Prynne

I suspect it is very much in synch with gnostic thought. It was the Roman Empire that dominated the Christian religious atmosphere from the third century on. And every aspect of the original religion was as thouroughly removed as they were able to do it. Religion? Actually it is not a religion. It is a way of life, based on the truth. If someone were to force me to say I belonged to some religious or philosophical belief, I do believe I would say Gnostic Christian. In truth though, I consider myself more a gnostic christian buddhist taoist.

The idea I don't believe is so removed from Eastern religion. (by religion I mean philosophical thought, the only religion I consider truly a religion is Roman Catholicism) In the Bible we have the story of God and the Devil. It is sometimes referred to also as the cross versus the dragon. And in many societies we have the story of the dragon slayer, St George of the cross, etc. etc. etc. On an allegorical level this can refer to the "mistake" as you put it. Then God becomes preduality. The Devil, as the number deus, becomes duality. The one eternal nowness, nonexistence split into opposites, and thus we have the changes. As a result, everything than can be polarized is. This includes good and evil (for in reality there is neither, there simply is) And among the opposites of course, is inevitably the polarity of oneness and separation. So the Devil is merely a symbol for the separation from God. In other words, the ego. The devil becomes merely the ego. Now the ego, enthroned on his throne of separation, by its very nature hates God. This hatred stems from the believe that it was forced to be separate due to some terrible thing that it had done to displease God. And we all have within us, whether we realize it or not, deep in the unconscious, this memory of this illusory separation. And with this feeling of separation is a horrible aweful feeling of guilt and anger. Because of this guilt and anger, we unconsciously terrorize ourselves, to the point of eventually killing ourselves. Many of us lead lives of poverty, because we have this inner denial of oneness with god, because we feel we have sinned, by separating from god, and every since then, we hide from the oneness of God. And religions are brilliant at this, hiding from God by supposed rituals that we think bring us closer to God. After the separation, the fall, "The Lord God came looking for the man that he had created, and he said 'Adam, where are you?' And Adam said, I heard thy voice in the Garden, and I was afraid, and I hid myself." This is the result of separation. We hide ourselves from God, because we are afraid, thinking we are guilty. And the only answer, the only hope, is in forgiveness. This is what the ego cannot handle, is forgiveness. For God sees no evil, he sees no good, he sees only oneness. And as such the universal god force judges no one, condemns no one, for in doing so, he would judge himself. And if we are all one, how can we sin? How can we be evil? What was the fall, really? Its all an illusion, and as the Beattles sang, I am the walrus.

[prynne]

KooKooKaChooo.

[jeanystar]

I am he as you are he and you are me and we are all together...
I'm crying.


I like your post, Gene, btw.

Prynne, is that your favorite beatles song? ( :

[prynne]

"Across the Universe"...'Words are flowing out like endless rain into a paper cup,They slither while they pass, they slip away across the universe......Jai Guru Deva Om Nothing's Gonna Change my World',

"Two of Us", 'Two of us riding nowhere, Spending someone's Hard earned pay, Two of us Sunday driving, Not arriving, On our way back home'

"Julia". 'Half of what I say is meaningless, but I say it just to reach you http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif Jeanystar : )'

Pakua: In Brad's post. early in this thread. believe he said that in the Yi there IS an IMPLIED correlation between action and luck, but that one is encouraged to act as if there isnt. ??

[candid]

Pakua: "Can I get back to the heading of this thread for a minute?"

Bring in the return!

"If good luck can't be caused by any action, can it be caused by thought?"

Cause and effect seem to rule the action/thought domain. Does that really address random luck, as in "lucky"? I think luck is that which comes across our path with no other cause than us being in its path. Now, if we were forewarned of this luck, and proceeded to walk under the ladder anyway, that would be misfortune.

So the oracle is that magic which enables us to take ordinary occurrences and transform them into fortune or misfortune.

[jerryd]

Candid, jerry here, if luck is defined as random, "any action" relating to it seems inadvertent to the luck it self. Does this (luck) in any way relate to what we call Fate? Or predestination, which we can do nothing about if it exists at any level. So if you or I believe in predestination then luck is exactly what it is in it's randomness, a fated event. I am not speaking of gambeling or lotteries but chance happenings which are seen as fortuitous, luck can also be just as negative as positive. Majic there for could be luck discuised as conjured predestination. Yi I believe is not majic or even a predestination but an inate guift to some and a learned talent for others. As an oricle or tool, I as an insturment of Yi and of human origin believe in the science and technology of today. But I also believe it may have come from the same place as the guift of devination. The ferminent carries all the past and perhaps all the future if there is to be any.

[pakua]

"one is encouraged to act as if there isnt. ??"

From a practical point of view, I take it that there's no connection. If I have to forget about it, it may as well not exist. Sort of like that saying, "don't do good deeds for any reward", even if you know there may be one, you still have to forget about it.

" luck is that which comes across our path with no other cause than us being in its path. "

How does Yi know about this in advance? Does it detect somehow that you're in a certain "good-luck (or bad) flow or ripple" or something?

"We are simply observers of ourselves"

Gene, I find this exceedingly difficult. How does one perceive and act consciously at the same time, while still acting without intent, and without simply following any old (or new) impulse that happens to pop up?

[gene]

Pakua

I am not sure what you are asking me. Can you explain a little more? If you are referring to the outside observer, I am merely saying, view yourself exactly as you would anyone else, as if you yourself were just another person. The observer part of you is watching a movie in which you are just one of the actors. I admit, this is not easy, I certainly don't do it all the time. You might look at it this way, observe yourself with total detachment. Also, when meditating, which is necessary to calm the mind, it is nearly impossible to completely stop the flow of thoughts. But if the observer is just observing the thoughts, then the thoughts tend to disappear. You can find more about this in some of Ken Wilber's books.

Gene

[martin]

This observing is not really something that you can do or need to do, Pakua. It is already happening.
Something/somebody in us is always watching what is going on, independent of the intent of the personality or the I.
So it's more a question of discovering it than doing it or creating it. But it's quite subtle and such discoveries cannot be forced. Talk about luck .. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif
Sometimes people suddenly become aware of it when they are in a crisis situation, an accident for instance. They see very clearly and in great detail what is happening from what seems to be a detached viewpoint and it can be like watching a slow motion movie.

[martin]

Yesterday I had a funny experience with the "predictive" power of the I Ching.
My chess engine had to play a strong opponent (also a computer) in a tournament and I asked the I Ching how it would fare.
The answer was 47.2. Part of the text of the Legge translation says: "active operations on his part will lead to evil, but he will be free from blame."
Other translations say something similar. I concluded that my engine wouldn't have an easy time (no initiative) but that the game would end in a draw.
I didn't see the game yet (I'm not present at the tournament, it's somewhere in France) but today I heard that this is indeed what happened. The engine managed to get a draw in a difficult position.
The I Ching predicted this before the game even started. How could it have known?

I think that an oracle can sometimes know what will happen because it has in a sense already happened on subtler levels before it manifests on the physical level as events that are "actual" for us.
What we see as the future or the present may be the past for an oracle.

[candid]

There's all sorts of explainations as to "how" Yi can predict future events. My own is the image of time being a book. We live in the present page, but Yi has access to the entire volume. Easy for Yi to reference a later page. Not that's it's always willing to do so, of course.

But to be perfectly honest, I don't really care "how" it does this. I'm perfectly comfortable calling it magic.

[gene]

Some of this goes back again to hexagram 61. I haven't had time to do a writeup on it yet, but look at the W/B commentary about line 2. "The effect is but the reflection of something that emanates from one's own heart...." With our thoughts we are always creating vibrations and those vibrations match vibrations in the universe. Those vibrations that match ours will be called forth unto us. In this way we create our own reality. I know there are some on this website that do not agree with this, but it is true nontheless. Knowing the vibrational pattern as it presently exists gives the universe a pattern of our likely future.

Gene

[gene]

Yly2

One never knows the truth about which government has what in their flying craft. Lately Russia said it had something that would undo anything we had. Do they? Governments lie. But I do know that several countries in the world have technology that is not available to the public, and is in fact, top secret. And I do know beyond any doubt, that a good amount of this technology came alien races. Russia and the United States are always concerned what each other has, same with China, and several other countries. Think what we may the cold war is not truly over. Neither is the world any safer than it was before. Too bad we can't all get busy studying the I Ching. Then governments wouldn't have time to find enemies and make therefore excuses to tax us to high heaven for military armaments. I think most ordinary people, in your country, in mine, and elsewhere could live peaceably if our governments weren't always stirring up trouble. It is too bad.

And back to the I Ching. This goes back to hexagram 61 a bit, and also to eastern, and esoteric christian philosophy. We all have an ego of sorts that sees itself as guilty. (I wrote about this yesterday, somewhere) The ego tends to project that guilt out onto others, so that we always see the problem as being the other person. Therefore, Capitalism and communism project out onto each other their own guilt complexes. Republicans and Democrats do the same. There is always some "devil" out there, that we have to fight against because it is causing our grief. East and West the same problem. Historically, almost every country has thought every other country was a bunch of barbarians. It is not so much true anymore, though old beliefs do linger in some circles. But there was a time when China and Japan thought each other barbarians. But they thought the Westerners were even worse barbarians. The west tended to think the same thing. Tended to think they were so superior. Left to just the average man, though, once again, we could so much easier just get along. The ancient Ninja of Japan believed that we all have a shadow self. That shadow self may be somewhat like what the west thinks of as an ego. At any rate, it can trip you up. There is an old saying, "every thief wants to get caught." It is because our shadow self always eventually betrays us, unless it is honored and accepted. There is also the old saying, "In order to be a true warrior, one must explore the darkness also." We need to know ourselves. Then we will know the vibrations that we emit, and "the crane calling in the shade" will find its young.

Gene

[prynne]

Gene, Yly2, Martin, Jeanystar, Pakua, Candid, Bradfor....d. I have enjoyed this thread, I am leaving for a while, and will not be in contact wil the computer.

blessings to you all, and to you Gene, gnostic soul.

[yly2pg1]

"Thoughts are things. When we become cool, calm, collected, relaxed, we are thinking positively even down in the subconscious mind, this brings those conditions to us. This is what confidence really is, it is not the arrogance that many seem to mistake it for. Arrogance is only a coverup for fear.

There are only two forces in the universe. Love and fear, and they are opposites. You either attract what you love, or you attract what you fear."

That reminds me of an inspiring encounter with the 'invisible guest' in the book "Grow Rich! With peace of mind", by Napolean Hill (1883-1970) Chapter 12.

[yly2pg1]

"Russia and the United States are always concerned what each other has, same with China, and several other countries. Think what we may the cold war is not truly over. Neither is the world any safer than it was before. Too bad we can't all get busy studying the I Ching. Then governments wouldn't have time to find enemies and make therefore excuses to tax us to high heaven for military armaments."

The world will never be at peace even when everyone learns Yi. It is an ancient truth. A sad one!

The elements of fear, mistrust and ego are always overwhelming in the domain of cultural difference. The root of each culture is traced to an 'independent' civilization respectively, seemingly unrelated! The Sumerian, Hebrew, Yi to name a few (Not sure about Maya, BTW).

The world is an illusion!
Each nation is virtually a proxy to his Godfather!
The Nagas in the old Middle Kingdom is a good example. The Naga(s) is still an unassuming voice in China NOW!

The conflicts btw nations will go on.
While the 'top' has its own agendas and ballgames,
advice to the human races at the bottom, "do not rock the boat" in all occasions.

[yly2pg1]

"I do believe I would say Gnostic Christian.
In truth though, I consider myself more a gnostic christian buddhist taoist."

A belief beyond 2100!

[gene]

I've enjoyed this thread.

Hurry back Prynne

Gene

[yly2pg1]

Somethings learnt here about some rough mechanics of 'Fate [Ming4] rewrite'?

(1) Preordained Mental Schema (by birth).
(The mental schema underlies the habitual domain, individual inclination
and tendency)

(2) Hex8.5 (openness)
The openness for new experiences and truths to enter and assimilate.

(3) Hex61.2 (resonance with 'vibration pattern of thought')

(4) Undergoing processes (of negative entropy) with sustained effort
(e.g. staying in Dao/Tao, meditation etc), an exercise of reversing
the habitual mental pattern.

('De' is relinquished during the processes for the restructuring of schema rather than
the trade-in for other well beings in material world or Good 'LUCK'?)

(5) Renewed Mental Schema (dictated by the vibration pattern in Hex61.2)

An on-going, spiral and repeating process, dictated by the functionality of time.


TQ! Good luck to all.

[gene]

Yly2

How are you defining schema?

Thanks,
Gene

[yly2pg1]

Like the one by Edgard Morin.

Good to start with 'Mental representation'.
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jacques.nimier/pagea22.htm
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jacques.nimier/pagea27.htm

Definition for schema:
http://tip.psychology.org/schema.html

[yly2pg1]

By Buddhism definition, the 'schema' is very near to the term 'vinnana'.

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/ddsa/getobject_?HTML.a.0:12585./projects/artfl0/databases/dicos/philologic/pali/IMAGE/

[pakua]

"There are only two forces in the universe. Love and fear, and they are opposites. You either attract what you love, or you attract what you fear." "

Hope you don't mind some skepticism here... I used to believe that, whole-hog, but now I'm not so sure.

Don't we all know some kind gentle souls, who somehow have attracted a bad situation? Are we saying, below that peaceful, kind veneer, there lurks some big fears and/or angers? And then there are SOB's that seem to get away with a lot of badness.

Are we saying a kind loving person can walk through the darkest part of town without coming to harm, simply because they have no fear?

I think if it was that simple, people would actually be able to use those books that claim to show how to attract wealth, simply by using mind and attitude.

[pakua]

Gene,

WHat I meant to say was, one is moving and acting with 100% involvement in whatever one is involved with, fully immersed with one's Tao. How does one observe at the same time, without reducing that 100% focus? Is it just a question of training (I think that's what you're implying?) I think meditation is a little different, you're already focussed mainly on observing, without having to interact with the world.

Martin,

Are you saying it's not a conscious observing? I always thought it was, so that one could have that overview of the self. What value does it have if it's not conscious?

[martin]

The observing that always goes on, is conscious, Pakua, it is awareness.
And awareness is always crystal clear. There are no degrees of awareness.

If we feel that we are not fully aware, not fully awake, not clear, clouded, it is because we are aware of a clouded inner state and confuse that state, the object of awareness, with awareness itself.

It's like being in a fog or in the twilight and thinking that there is something wrong with our eyes.
Once we recognize the fog or the twilight as an object we realize that we see it very clearly. There is nothing wrong with our eyes! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[pakua]

Hi Martin,

I'm not sure we're talking about exactly the same thing.

In your example, "Sometimes people suddenly become aware of it when they are in a crisis situation, ...They see very clearly and in great detail what is happening from what seems to be a detached viewpoint and it can be like watching a slow motion movie. "

You imply here that it doesn't always go on, consciously.

Say I'm watching a movie. Sometimes I get really involved, as if I'm the character and feeling everything he feels. I lose all awareness of my surroundings. Sometimes I pull back and watch the actors acting, the director's directing, etc. But then I lose the involvement. By a great effort, for a little while I can do a tiny little bit of both at once. What I want is everything, to be involved and to be aware http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

I love listening to music, and being aware of a number of instruments at once and how they interact with each other. Stereo sure was a great invention!

I tend to think of awareness as a gradually growing kind of thing, gradually becoming clearer and clearer, like waking up, or the fog slowly clearing.

[martin]

Hi Pakua,

The awareness that is always there is intimate. It's not like the "objective" observing from a distance that we learn in our schools.
There is space between here and there, between me and the computer screen before me for instance, but this space is experienced as a connection, not as a separation.
The same is true for everything else that is seen, heard, etcetera. The intimacy is never disturbed. It's like here and there are two ends of one stick. Hence there is no problem with involvement. Involvement is part of awareness.

Does this make sense?
I would like to say more, about how we manage to be unaware of awareness http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/spin.gif, about gradualness and so on. But I have to postpone that, the intimacy of my bed is waiting. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[pakua]

There are large numbers of people who seem to be unaware of anything except sports, beer and the oppposite sex (not that there's anything wrong with that!), but then gradually a dim light glows, and some of them may become aware of more subtle things.

Maybe I should use the term 'focus' rather than awareness. In my movie example, it seems quite difficult to focus on more than one thing at once, to be both completely engaged and observant at the same time.

Another example, say I do a reading about a coming situation. Then I enter the situation. If I try to fully engage with the situation (with whatever focus I can bring) while simultaneously try to maintain awareness of the overview (what's going on in the larger picture) in the back of your mind, I find it quite challenging. If I focus too much on the overview, I lose touch with the situation and don't repond appropriately, and vice versa.

I suspect this isn't possible by mental control or ability alone, so how to do it?

In your "crisis" example above, it seems it takes extra-ordinary effort to accomplish the two things at once, and then it's lost again after the crisis ends. But I think it can be learned too.

[yly2pg1]

Years ago, a monk taught me a way to START meditate.
He told me this method is taught in a monastery in Thai where
a number of western monks reside. Some concepts of 'note', 'awareness'
and 'focus' can be found in the method.


The method consists of a few steps:

STEP 1:

'NOTE' the 5 mental obstacles:
sensual desire
hatred/anger
anxiety/restless
sloth/torpor
doubts

The yogi starts by noting each obstacle (if they exist).
AWARENESS of ONE obstacle at a time until the obstacle (e.g. anger) subsides.
Once the mind gets clearance of all these obstacles,
the mind is to be swifted gear to step 2.


STEP 2:

Now the yogi 'NOTE' his physical setting.
Does his body feel any pain? any physical discomfort?
AWARENESS of each discomfort at a time until the sensation passes away.
Once the mind gets clearance of the physical 'absorption',
it will experience a sensation described as 'physical rupture' which is STEP3.


STEP3:

It is a sensation of relief when the mind of a yogi starts to detach from
the body sensation.


STEP4:

Now, the yogi 'NOTE' his own mind.
Be it be feeling, good feeling, bad feeling, neutral feeling, thoughts, flash thoughts, etc. etc.
Just NOTE! Be AWARE of each feeling, each thought, anything, one at a time.

There will come a point when the mind become clearer and more settled, this mental absorption
process will subside. A kind of 'mental rupture' sets in when mind is at ease and capable of
focusing a target for 'ONE-POINTEDNESS'.


STEP5:

FOCUS at a point of a 'target'.


And again, the whole exercise is a spiral, repeating process.
The more the practice of a yogi, the longer he can sustain and stay in STEP5 and further
to develop 'samadhi'.


(Just wonder if it is helpful?)

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/hex20.gif

[yly2pg1]

By Yi's term, this meditation method can be described as:

STEP1:
Hex44.2->Hex33(withrawal from temptation)

STEP2 -> STEP3:
Hex20.5(inner viewing)-> Hex23(physical rupture)

STEP4 -> STEP5:
Hex20.5(inner viewing)-> Hex23(mental rupture)

[pakua]

Thank you, Yly2pg1, for your kindness.

I thought the way would involve meditation in some fashion, that it requires one to be in some particular state of mind somehow to act and observe simultaneously.

I'll be saving and using that method. You make it seem so simple. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

I'm assuming at step 5, when you say focus at a 'target', you mean something you've chosen to meditate on?

[yly2pg1]

Hi Pakua,

You are right about the TARGET in step 5.
Some calls it the 'foundation of mindfulness' ('satipathana' in Pali's text).
There are four foundations of mindfulness prescribed by the Buddha.

One popular method in step 5 is "the awareness of rising and falling in the upper abdomen".