Forum upgrade, expansion and more

[hilary]

Hello... I've had an idea. One of those big sprawling ideas that takes ages to explain, so bear with me.

The gist - I'd like to move this forum from Discus (its current program) to different and vastly better software (like say Vbulletin) that will make a lot of things easier (like subscribing to a single thread, which is a real performance in the current setup), and a lot more things possible. Also it'd make the admin side much easier and more efficient, and it's much more suited to a big community with huge archives than Discus, which is creaking at the seams somewhat.

I know the actual changeover would be a disruption, and getting used to things like new formatting styles would take time, but after looking at a lot of very successful communities using vBulletin, I think it'd suit us really well. We don't have to clutter the place with unwanted bells or whistles, but if we want something like - say - integrated live chat or a private messaging system or a calendar for online or offline meetings... it's available.

From what I've learned so far, it's possible to transfer all the threads and all the user accounts across intact. It should be possible for you to login after the transfer (though you might have to reset your password, not sure about that) and continue posting quite seamlessly. I certainly wouldn't make a move without being absolutely sure that would happen without a hitch - it wouldn't be worth it, I think.

But the idea sprawls further...

There are plenty of people who know they are looking for something - some kind of connection or rootedness that will give them a sense that experiences mean something, and are meant - a way for decisions to come from a few layers deeper - a feeling of living in more dimensions, coming from the root... you know what I mean!! Even when people are really actively looking to grow and expand, they may well have a big problem holding onto the peak experiences or the root-level understanding amidst day to day kerfuffles.

And you also know that this is what divination is about. The trouble is, most people don't. The popular image of divination is that it's all about predicting who'll win the lottery etc - nothing to do with any of the really good stuff.

So... you get the basic idea. I want to help people at least get the idea that divination is worth trying, and I want to make it very, very easy to try. I'd like to have a simple kind of site you could recommend to a complete beginner, where they could find both basics and support in one place, without having to hop about a lot of navigation. I know the great majority of people here are not in need of beginners' introductory anything - I don't want to change the nature of the community at all, just add some convenient 'ladders' for people to access it by.

So the ICC would be at the core, and around it would be all the free getting-started information I can muster - and assorted things people can buy if/when they want to go deeper.

But I think that for this to be the starting point it needs to have information on other forms of divination and ways of connecting, too. Tarot, astrology and dream interpretation come to mind. I'd like to find some really outstanding people in these areas who would offer free beginners' information on the site, in return for lots of exposure for their paid materials and services. (Suggestions/ recommendations very welcome!) And maybe there could be forum areas for these different, um, modalities (someone please think of a better word) too?

What are your thoughts on any/all of this?

(Yi's advice when I asked for comment on the idea was 49 changing at 1, 3 and 6 to 12. I have been browsing, researching, thinking etc and tying myself up in great quantities of yellow oxhide; now here are some words of change coming into circulation.)

[matt]

Sounds really good Hilary http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

As it stands at the moment, if a divinitory beginner browsed the community section of this site, they might struggle a bit with the complexity of many threads. And you are right, many people percept the I Ching as a tool of prediction, so with your suggestions they may be able to enhance their vision.

When you say you would like to find some outstanding people in 'other form of divination... Tarot, astrology and dream interpretation", do you mean renowned professionals? Like well-known web-authors, advisors or specialists?

Its a good idea too. Many are not aware of the similarities between these systems, and with Astrology and Tarot particularly, you may find the community expanding significantly and then taking more of an interest in the deeper I Ching side.

[ewald]

Hi Hilary - I very much like this simple forum interface there is now. The more advanced forums that are the norm nowadays are usually too cluttered to my taste. You perhaps could remove much of the clutter at installation - but I have my doubts.

Clarity is established as a major I Ching site on the web. Astrology and Tarot are not really part of it's themes, only as side notes. I think you should keep it that way, so as to keep at what you're really about.

In order to introduce a larger audience to the I Ching by adding Astrology and Tarot, it may be a better idea to set up a whole new website that has divination in general as it's theme.

[hilary]

Thanks, Matt!

The partners thing - they would be people who were good at what they do, not overwhelmingly famous already (so this would be a worthwhile opportunity for them), and with some really good free things to offer. It'll be hard for me to identify such people on my own, as I'm very ignorant of these other systems. So suggestions or contacts would be great.

Thanks, Ewald!
I was going to email you next... as if/when we move, I'd need to ask you nicely to update your search script yet again, this time to work with a mySql database. I hope this could be done? as that search is one of the most-used things here.

I take your point about astrology and tarot not being what Clarity is about, and like I said I don't know anything about them. But I've been trying to think less in terms of what I can do, more in terms of what people might need.

Odd that you should suggest setting up a whole new website... http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif. That's a real possibility I have in mind. I would redirect straight from onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/ to newdomain.com/forums?forum=icc (or whatever) - so people would still visit this forum at the same address and hopefully not be too put out by the change. But at the same time there would be navigation to connect with other things.

Do you think that'd work? It's important to me not to dilute or diminish what we have here at all. I think community is a vital part of any divination site, though - there's no better way for people to see that it works, and how it works.

I will look into the interface thing more. I think it should be possible in vBulletin to remove any clutter you don't want - if I can just decipher the templating system.

[lightofdarkness]

Im with Ewald.

[ewald]

It should be no problem to convert the hexagram index to MySQL. At the moment I'm really low on spare time, but that'll probably change in one or two months.

I like the idea of setting up another divination website and connect it with onlineclarity.co.uk by moving the forum there.

[matt]

Hey Hilary,

I know a few people who may be able to offer assistance with Astrology when you need it. I also have quite an extensive knowledge myself, my mums an astrologer, and Ive been doing Natal Charts/Synastry Charts/Harmonics for a number of years now. When it is nearer the time for your idea to come to fruition, whichever direction you choose, I can email a couple of people and alert them to the possibility. And I would be more than happy to help out.

[hilary]

Great!

Not that anything is decided yet... maybe trying to start a tarot or astrology forum would be a daft, wheel-reinventing idea. I don't know about astrology, but there is a superb tarot forum (http://www.tarotforum.net) already. I don't want to get into competition with such a thing - not just because it'd be a massive uphill struggle, but because the different oracles are not 'in competition', and so there would be something utterly wrong-headed in turning their users into business 'competition'.

On the other hand, I think maybe people would rather visit and sign up somewhere they could get the basics on many systems, not just one. And if any partners wanted a forum for their specialism under this umbrella, it'd be great to provide it - and in such a way that the two systems get to talk to each other. (In other words, the ways of knowing are natural partners, so it'd be good to echo that in website structure.)

Still exploring possibilities - though I think I may be wandering in a circle... http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/blush.gif

[hilary]

Oh, Chris, are you with Ewald on liking uncluttered interfaces, not wanting to dilute with other systems, or both?

[lightofdarkness]

both.

[matt]

Hilary, if it is just 'divination' itself you wish to make people more aware of, then a general divintory forum would allow all mediums. All the systems are just a different expression of the same source energy. Divination at its core can give meaning to every system, regardless of differences.

I do like the way this forum and this site is presented. Its... cosy, warm, like sitting next to an open fire. But that isnt because of the format you are using for the site, its simply because you created that feeling here and the community grew it. If you decided to move the forum or stay here, that community spirit would still exist because the souls would take it with them.

Anyway, whichever choice you make, I know it will be the right one, I just wanted you to know you have my support either way.

[hilary]

*huge smile!*

Thanks, Matt. Communities are not made of software http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif. Which, oddly enough, is a good reason to send the words of change round a few times yet before setting any changes in motion.

[my_key]

Hilary

As a relatively new I Ching user, what drew me to this site was it's simplicity and clarity. Adding other divination methods, having possible 2 websites or splitting it seems to be going against what are it's great strengths.
Why not just have links to good websites for these other divination methods.


Mike

[my_key]

Matt

Would agree wholeheartedly with your comments as well.
The flames a flicking, the coals are glowing I'm sitting here all a-mellow.

Mike

[bradford_h]

Hi Hilary-
I'll go with the "It ain't broke, don't fix it" vote.
And I'd suggest staying away from the extraneous and broader topics which are admirably handled already elsewhere on the web. If your Yixue folk want to discuss Astrology they can easily create a new thread, or find previous threads on the subject using your handy little search engine.
b

[hilary]

Thanks, both.

Mike, I'm especially glad to hear from you as a comparative newcomer. I have a question - do you happen to know if there's anything for sale from this site? (Don't start looking for it now, that'd be cheating http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif.)

[mirror_saw]

H,

I really like the idea of live chat!!! That would be so cool to be able to converse in real time about a reading with other members of the forum.

I kinda like this idea. Personally, the new "change" is kinda what the Yi Jing is all about.

But spending some time in the software business, I know first hand, that samll incremental steps is the key. I would recommend 1 new feature per quarter, or 2 new features per 6 months depending on the complexity of the features http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

mirror saw

[jte]

Hilary, I think the golden rule with a question of whether to upgrade any technology is to ask yourself "Is it still capable of doing what I want it to do?"

From what you posted above, it sounds like the answer is starting to become "no": broken search engine, issues with storage space, issues with possibly expanding topics, etc. So, that is something to consider...

By the way, I'm with the folks who appreciate the simplicity of the forum's current interface. If it isn't based on a template from your current provider, would you be able to just keep the "look and feel" when you move? Might be a nice way to ease the transition...

One other thing, you're probably aware that the more seamless a move like this seems to us end users, the less seamless (and the more like an Orwellian nightmare) it feels like to you and the techies. So, you'd probably want to have plenty of chocolate and aromatherpy candles (or whatever you use to relax) handy... ;-)

- Jeff

[heylise]

Hilary, could you give an example of a site, where they use vBulletin? I'd like to know what it is, how it looks, if it feels good, before I can say anything about it.

What I like a lot about 'here' is that it is very easy to follow a thread. It is like one long text page. In other forums I often had trouble finding my way. It seems I still have a 'paper' head.

LiSe

[julie]

I'm also in the "if it ain't broke" crowd. I worry that if this is the place to come for complete newbies, we'll be swamped with lots of questions from people who don't really care about the answers. It's great to have newbies join us, but a community can only absorb so many at once.

[frank_r]

I/m quit new in your house, and start to like it there a lot of interesting people and comments.

I have studied a lot of systems and compared them, astrology, tarot, maya astrology, eneagrams, DNA when studying I converted them in I ching language, for me it's the basic language.

For me it's quit intersting to talk about these systems but in a I Ching way of perspective.

And reading your answer from the I Ching itself 49 changing lines 1,3,6 into 12. Revolution changing in obstruction.

So my opinion is when changing keep it very close to the I Ching itself, let's make commicating easier but if changing take little steps at the time and look if I Ching itself will keep on track.

Frank R

[hilary]

The Aeclectic tarot forum (http://www.tarotforum.net) is one example of a Vbulletin forum. There are loads of others - if you visit any big community sites, especially where there is some money being made somewhere in the background, then vBulletin seems to be behind it more often than not. Try googling 'powered by vBulletin'.

I think I'd pay someone to work the transfer and create a new 'skin' that would look as much as possible like the current template. (I have seen one vB forum with a left hand menu like this one, so it can be done.) If I try to work all this out myself, I'll spend months doing nothing but techie stuff.

The sprawling idea is morphing a lot (perhaps it's a giant squid?). If I were to stick with an I Ching site, what would be the point in building a new one? Wouldn't it be better to redesign this one? Hm, last time I did that it took me 6 solid months. Heh.

[hilary]

By the way, mirror, there is a simple text chat function available here - see the link up on the left-hand menu. AFAIK it still works... It's not integrated with the forum login, though.

And if anyone here is a web designer, php expert, vbulletin expert, amember expert, or all four, looking for work, drop me an email.

[frank_r]

hi hilary,

First your website has a very friendly way of presenting all the subjects.

But reading your mail you are not satisfied yourself, what parts you want to change?
Do you want to have more submenus?

A vBullitin is colder for me, there is less space for personal text, I like yours now better than the vbulletin you pointed out.

but succes with looking what feels good for you.

Frank R

[lindsay]

Let's talk about the money aspect of the idea for a moment. My impression is that it is very difficult to make serious money with this kind of service without a lot of paid (and intrusive) advertising. Is Aeclectic making money? I don't see any of the usual in-your-face ads or links to vendors. I feel Hilary has been extraordinarily scrupluous and incredibly generous about managing Clarity as a commercial site. But if there is any expectation of substantial profit, it might pay to do a fairly rigorous business plan before going too far. Something a little more quantitative than asking the Yi might be appropriate, I imagine. More logos, less mythos.

Lindsay

[hilary]

I don't know whether Aeclectic is making money... I've only emailed Solandia once, so it would be kind of awkward to ask! Her forum has a paid membership area, though it's so cheap I doubt it even pays for the hosting. But there is more (much more) to her site, so maybe she subsidises her forum just as I do this one.

I'm having a go at this business plan thing, and thank you for mentioning the m-word. Of course behind the scenes I am thinking about it a lot http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif. What I want to discover at this stage, though, is what is important to people here, what you'd enjoy, what you'd just put up with if you had to...

My ideas basically revolve around having two membership tiers. The free one would be basically forum membership with some extra downloads and optional subscriptions, consolidated in one place rather than scattered all over as they are at present. The paid one would have more in-depth things to download or subscribe to, and access to more communal activity. Online live meetings, for instance - and how about a gua-by-gua I Ching wiki??

By the way, Lindsay, it's very good to hear from you again! I've been enjoying Lindqvist lately, and thinking of you. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/zen2.gif

[hilary]

Frank, that's a good question. What do I want to change? Two things, really. I'd like to make more of a difference for more people - especially those who are looking for ways to make their own difference! - and I'd like to earn more money. As I see it, those are two ways of saying the same thing.

In terms of the site design - it doesn't make it clear enough what's on offer here, I think, either free or paid-for. Since I created this design, I've added more things for sale (currently scattered all over) and my priorities have changed, and there is no natural place to put new offerings. I dread the thought of re-doing it, but I've always known it had to be done some time. (Now why don't I have an emoticon on this board to represent sheer panic?)

[lindsay]

Thank you, Hilary, you're very welcome. Lindqvist continues to enjoy a very solid reputation in an area marked by great confusion.

There are two things I am willing to pay for on the web. One is reliable and hard-to-get information, and the other is personal attention. Especially personal contact with experienced and knowledgeable people. Expertise.

Often I have detailed technical questions about divination I would like to ask you (Hilary) or Harmen or Bradford or Lise or Bruce or Martin or others, but do not feel these questions are appropriate to the Clarity forum. At least nobody seems much interested in discussing such matters. Sometimes these questions are factual ("What is the Plum Blossom Oracle, anyway?" or "Sorry, I missed the day someone explained fan yao - what is that?') - but most often I am interested in how people use things and what they think about the results. This is usually because I think my own readings are thin and poor and unimaginative. It's easy to get into a rut.

So I would be willing to pay for access to expertise and advice. And for certain kinds of information. I'm not so enthusiastic about opinion - ever meet anyone on the internet who didn't have one? My cat thinks he knows as much as Zhuxi.

By the way, I'm also a person looking for something in life, and I've been using the Yi a long time to try to find it. I like that kind of approach and orientation to divination. My hormones sputtered out years ago, but my spirit aches and yearns more than ever for the Way. In that regard, I treasure the Yi as a companion and a helper. Talk along those lines is always helpful.

I like the idea of tiers or subscriptions or anything that doesn't cost too much but answers my questions. I know harvesting beginners is likely to be more promising, but there are still ways to part older readers from their money.

Lindsay

[heylise]

Sometimes it is really great when someone asks a question about what happens to inspire me. Very often there is not that much of a chance to talk about it. E.g. everyone knows what fanyao is, but of course I see many instances where someone obviously does not know. I'd love to explain, again. Just imagine yourself, don't you love to repeat a hundred times what you found some day, some time? It is a lot more than repeating.. every time new ideas enter into it, new and inspiring for myself too, and it seems especially when one explains again to someone else.

Have been looking around on vBulletin sites. I happen to have subscribed to a Dutch Yi-forum (huge: 5 members, moderator included..) which is on a vBulletin site. I didn't know, I know now. I have been searching since a week how this thing seems to work. I am slowly getting it now. Once you know, it is not really complicated, it just was as if the 'entrance' was unfriendly.
Maybe it was also the color, glooooomy!!! Talking at night, in an unknown city, that is the impression I got.

But I am still open and curious for whatever you come up with, Hilary. Seems something has to happen, and only you can know how necessary that is.

LiSe

[jesed]

Hi Hilary

Just in case the comment could be useful

A radical change that leads to stagnation; mmm.... would I continue with the idea of a radical change after that answer? probably not

Is not that no change is needed; but maybe just minor changes (line 6) and not great revolutions (line 1). In any case, be aware about what changes are really needed and when to make them(line 3)

best wishes

[hilary]

Hi Jesed,

Yes, I looked hard at it. But you know me and relating hexagrams - they're not necessarily the future. On this occasion I could recognise it as my personal present in various ways. Looking at the reading as a whole, I think it's a radical change to stagnation. And amidst a certain resistance to change, no doubt. But I don't think the 12 is a consequence of the 49.

My current thinking (many conversations and readings later) is to postpone the idea of a separate site and keep both forum and membership tiers here. Whether I can do this without re-doing the rest of the site - or just before redoing the rest of the site (which wasn't going to be the same in another 4 years anyway...) - is another matter. But I am thinking about ways of minimising the visible changes.

[hilary]

12 turns out to be what Discus is doing to the web server right now...

[ellenmowrer]

Dear Hilary,
I very much like your site. If you could add an easy-access chart of the nuclear 1 and 2 hexagram conversions (save me from hunting/bookmarking another site) that would be nice. Also, an option for further translation choices (you show the Legge and a Wilhelm). I like the Richard Wilhelm Translation rendered into English by Cary F. Baynes. Finally, a one-page formatted summary, showing the "answer", the Hexagram/Trigrams, some translations, etc. for easy printing; it would make your "7 ways to a live reading" easier to follow through on (assuming that one uses your computer Yi Ching reading as opposed to casting by hand.) Happy 100th issue, and good fortune to you!
Best Regards, Ellen

[hilary]

Thank you, Ellen!

And thank you for downloading '7 ways', that's the first time anyone's mentioned it.

So what you would really like would be an improved and upgraded free online reading? Yes, I can see why - the existing one is a bit clunky, and to record your reading you need to grab pen and paper - not what you expect in this day and age.

One more on the 'to do' list. I'd need to commission a brand new program to do what you suggest, so it won't happen soon or anything... but it'll happen. Thanks! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[willow]

Apologies in advance - I've skimmed the topic, but not completely read it!

One comment about possible BBS systems: if you are not totally set on VBulletin yet, another one you might consider is DCScripts. The feature it has that I especially like is that there is a toggle viewing choice between "expand threads" and "collapse threads". In "expand threads" you not only see the first or last post but you see a tree with one line for EACH post in the thread. At a glance you can see who has posted and when.

Another feature it has that you would have to consider how it would change the discussion is that each topic (thread) can have branching responses. Each response gets to create its own header (or default is it just keeps the header of the response it is responding to). So in this topic, say, the main thread would be called "Forum upgrade, expansion and more", and then I might head my response "Another BBS software to consider." Then anyone who wants to make a comment about this would post a reply to my reply, while anyone who wants to discuss the other subjects raised so far might reply to another response.

Unfortunately the board I've used is private, so I can't link it as an example. The company site has a page with links to examples: http://www.dcscripts.com/clients.shtml
The one http://www.walleyecentral.com/board/index.shtml seems a pretty accessable one for playing with the features, although its look is not so sharp.

http://www.okayplayer.com/boards.htm gives an idea of a much cleaner look, but has some of the features more hidden from view.

The shocker to me while trying to find those examples for you is what a huge thing it is to have a well-matched host/community partnership. Beauty, legibility, usefulness, civility, are all so much more than software!

[willow]

Did a little more research, and the comparable product to Vbulletin is actually DCForum+ . Here is the main page on the company site, and links to examples, screenshots, etc from there are good. http://www.dcscripts.com/dcforump.shtml