Posting on this forum: 60 to 38 (alternate title: ummm, yes, i DO have a life.)

[tashiiij]

Sometimes someone says something that really moves me but i keep it quiet cause i dont want to derail the thread. So that person goes oblivious to the fact that they had an effect. Sometimes a button gets pushed, i keep it quiet and am usually happy i did. But then also sit on vital stuff too. Sometimes say stuff i wish i hadn't. And then it's there forever. (well, cyber forever)

Have never met one single person on this forum, but still carry the conversations on inside like I have. Never know if it is mutual. That's ok. But it's wierd.

On top of that, i still am learning about the I Ching, and intuition, and can only share a little in terms of understanding. Does this voice count? Greatly value the scholar's work and the sage's words and actions. Being neither, can I still stick my foot in the water?

Forum communication is a stange thing.

Any thoughts?

[dharma]

My sentiments and experiences exactly. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

I too carry on conversations in my head with the members but always quite aware that all of you individuals represent aspects of myself that in some instances I am only now getting aquainted with. If truth be told, some aspects are difficult to swallow and so hard to accept and therefore integrate. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif All in all, you are all very real to me despite the manner in which I "use" you to benefit my growth.

There comes a time when I sense a need to speak in order to get out of my own head and ground the experience into something more real and alive. Other times I sense the need to listen quietly in the background and soak it all in. Such is the integration process. It's all good.

I enjoy all your input Tashi. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

Don't judge the value of what you have to say based on the fear that it will last "forever". Whatever you have to say, even if it is of no import to anyone else, at the very least (and that's a lot!) it is infinitely important to the grounding process and growth potential it offers you for getting it out of your head and making it "real".

[heylise]

Tashii, you have no idea how many buttons you pushed for me. You have a very wise spirit, as far as I can see. Your mails are always balanced, often witty, often with great insight, I always love to read them. As far as I am concerned, I see a very living person behind your mails. Please share, knowing a lot of I Ching is not the important thing, you have something more important to share.

Your thoughts are very much like my own, by the way.
LiSe

[joang]

Tashiiij,

I also am often moved by what I read on this forum, but put off writing something in response until I have more time, or for whatever reason. The problem with that is, the river flows on and we can never put our foot back in it at exactly the same place. By the time I am ready, what I wanted to say is no longer in the flow; it seems irrelevant or not as important as I previously thought, so I let it go unsaid.

I understand how you feel when you say stuff you wish you hadn't. I've had that feeling too, and it's not pleasant. Avoiding that, I'm sure, is one of the reasons for delaying a response. Sometimes that's a good thing, and sometimes it's a missed opportunity.

Namaste,
Joan

[shelley]

Perhaps this is the moment I've been waiting for! I've been following the discussions in this forum for a few weeks now but have hesitated over joining in.

So... here I am, encouraged by your sharing that you sometimes feel hesitant and sometimes regret not posting. Hi!

I won't have time to contribute frequently, or at length (which may be a Good Thing) and my knowledge of the I Ching is too limited so far for me to have very much to offer but I'm looking forward to getting to know you all better.

[tashiiij]

These responses mean so much to me! I wish to respond to each of you.

Dharma, you said this:

__________________
There comes a time when I sense a need to speak in order to get out of my own head and ground the experience into something more real and alive. Other times I sense the need
to listen quietly in the background and soak it all in. Such is the integration process. It's all good.
__________________

How well you put it! I am terribly conflicted about posting, yet I continue to do so and see it as valuable because if I risk nothing, in expressing, I receive nothing back, and stay in my own head. I wish to tell you something personal to you. This is a little story here. There is a tour going around of Budhhist relics. (It can be looked up under Maitreya project). A friend of mine told me to go, if they came near where I live, because they are very powerful. They did indeed come to my area, and I went. Yes very powerful. I went in the room and felt the force pervading the room IMMEDIATELY. So I sat for three hours and practiced.
Then I found out they were coming again, 2 weeks later, to a different location, still in my area. I decided to go, and make more dedications and practice. I had so many people who i wished to practice for for the second time. When the time came, and I was in the room with the relics, the only person I could honestly think of in my gut was you!!! It was that time when someone had posted something hurtful, and you took a break. I dont know why, but I felt so affected by that. And when I was in the presence of the Buddha's relics, you were there, very alive, in me. So this is how I mean to feel so affected by people I have not physically met.

LiSe

"Please share, knowing a lot of I Ching is not the important thing, you have something more important to share."

OK. This helps. If you say so I will believe it!!!! LiSe, you hang the moon!!! You have said so many things here I will never forget. In particular I recall what you said in the 19 to 2 hexagram, and how you interpreted that. About hexagram 2. It has never left me, what you said there in that post. All your posts, I read them intently, jewels. You are one who lives a wild life with a wild man and I love that!!!! I love your ways !!!! I am not sentimental, but i feel great love, and i love you.

Joan,

"By the time I am ready, what I wanted to
say is no longer in the flow; it seems irrelevant or not as important as I previously thought, so I let it go unsaid."

Thank you for saying this. Thank you for bringing in the river analogy. It is like a river here, and the water can be cold!!! I went ahead and posted this topic, thread, because I wondered if other people have some kind of conflict about communication in a forum, and how to work with it. When problems arise, a forum can be so awkward to work it out. People get hurt or frustrated and leave. Participating looses significance, because people loose sense they are important to the communication. Some very wonderful people no longer post. Of course everyone moves on, eventually, and things have cycles, but it would be a shame to lose what is an incredilbe body of work about the I Ching because of a sense of futility.

And Shelley, Hello!!!

ok its a special night, halloween, and i wish you all something special, some little surprise to charm you.

great love.

tash.

[val]

Tash...

What do you think 60 to 38 is telling you? I have thoughts, but the answer is to you, and I'd love to hear yours first.

Love,

Val

[tashiiij]

it is saying the measure of my measure is the measure of my conflict.


however.

my dear val i love 38 because it is called 'opposition' (in the w/b), but all the changing lines are about reconcilliation. and not with just anyone, but with a special friend.

(reminds me of what dharma said above, regarding integration)

now blow my mind with your dynamite.

(twinkle)

[val]

Dear Tashi...

I got basically what you did. Your self-made limitations are just fine..."sweet" limitations in that you put limitations on yourself and not others. And I got from 38 a neutralizing effect. Your remark in another thread, "What the hell," illustrates the kind of neutralizing, or overcoming opposition internally, that I see here.

But then again, what do I know...*shrugs shoulders*

Love,

Val

[hilary]

OK, it's just occurring to me that hesitating to post late on this thread is quite silly... I'll second (or 'twelfth', or whatever) everyone who loves and learns from Tash's posts - me, too!

And welcome, Shelley - thank you for posting. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

60 to 38... Articulating divergent visions? (I love readings where you can just read an answer from the hexagram names.) 60 isn't just limits, it's also finding shared 'measures' to communicate in. A special gift of yours?

[dharma]

<CENTER>I posted this one once before but it was a while ago -
its inspiration seems to be calling again.</CENTER>
<CENTER>.....</CENTER>
<CENTER>THE PENCIL</CENTER>
The Pencil Maker took the pencil aside just before putting him into the box. There are 5 things you need to know, he told the pencil, before I send you out into the world. Always remember them and never forget, and you will become the best pencil you can be.

One: You will be able to do many great things, but only if you allow yourself to be held in someone's hand.

Two: You will experience a painful sharpening from time to time, but you'll need it to become a better pencil.

Three: You will be able to correct mistakes you will make.

Four: The most important part of you will always be what's inside of you.

And Five: On every surface you are used on, you must leave your mark. No matter what the condition, you must continue to write.

The pencil understood and promised to remember, and went into the box with purpose in its heart.

Now replacing the place of the pencil with you; always remember them and never forget, and you will become the best person you can be.

One: You will be able to do many great things, but only if you allow other human beings to access you for the many gifts you possess.

Two: You will experience a painful sharpening from time to time, by going through various problems, but you'll need it to become a stronger person.

Three: You will be able to correct mistakes you might make or grow through them.

Four: The most important part of you will always be what's on the inside.

And Five: On every surface you walk, you must leave your mark. No matter what the situation.

By understanding and remembering, let us proceed with our life on this earth having a meaningful purpose in our heart.

[tashiiij]

oh thank you val and hilary!!! actually didnt intend to make this thread self referential but hey it's actually kinda nice!!! (thought others may have similar or related issues. )


val, the 'what do i know *shrugs shoulders*' expresses the difficulty in addressing another person's reading. i know when someone posts a question, i think about it, and it's a shot in the dark! and i dont want to mislead or reveal my own ignorance, so i hesitate to respond. anyway. i think your reading is spot on. i have wonderd if a thrid party CAN interpret for another, as the specifics of a situation can be so convoluted. but your reading of 38 to 60 is articulates in a way i couldnt have.

hilary, brilliant. im going to go back to 60 and look at it in light of what you wrote. as always, with everything you write here, a drop fills the bucket.

i wish to add, hilary, that i notice in my life some kind of interesting cause and effect since finding this forum. perhaps its because of all the perspectives offered here. i notice more power in working with the yi...like an invisible muscular fortress taking form. it has helped immensely to read the words of the people who translate the characters, and who have worked with the book in depth. for me, most help is gotten from the translators and historians who respect the text for it's ability to speak with uncanny acuracy about a specific concern. and so i am very grateful to their work. for me, chipping away to true meaning comes before releasing it. (the need for meaning) this is what, i notice, is most helpful for the happiness and courage of myself and people around me.

tash

[tashiiij]

oh dharma cross posts, going to read what you have here....

[heylise]

Hi Shelley
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/hug.gif
LiSe

[shelley]

Thank you all for your welcome. One of the reasons I chose this thread for my first post is that everyone who has posted to it so far is someone I've felt warm 'vibes' from when reading your contributions in other threads.

One of the first things I did after reading Hilary's book recommendations was to get a copy of I Ching, the Shamanic Oracle of Change, Palmer, Ramsay and Zhao Xiaomin. You might like this poem, Jay Ramsay's interpretation of Hex 60, which he calls 'Measuring':

Gathering in your hands, your thoughts, your speech.
Bringing the walls in around you.It is a natural turning, an inflection
Considered in the notches of the bamboo measure.
It is your rule, your length and extent.

And the oracle says: be gentle
Measure the time with an eye for inches
And build that ground from your dwelling -
But don't build it so tightly from that other extreme
That it becomes a clenched prison you can't get out of -

Measure your restraint beside your breathing.

Love,

Shelley

[val]

Hi Shelley...

It's very nice to meet you.

I love what this reading says about Tash. And I love your Ramsay interpretation...very lyrical. It's inspired me to add the Nigel Richmond interpretation (Language of the Lines) to the mix:

<BLOCKQUOTE>60 - Scarcity.

Fourth line

It is harmonious that he accepts not acting out in a time of scarcity.

Fifth line

Co-ordinating in harmonious relationships gives a tme of scarcity also a fullness.

Top line

He does not see the scarcity and his resources run out. He learns from this.

38 - Opposition in time. (Taking turns.)

Pattern

Forces of opposition
cannot coexist
without losing character,
so they take turns.

Nature

The cosmos
moves in cycles
of the active and the tranquil.

Human

To move with the easy
and rest simply
in harmony with others
allows his actions to be his own.

When the young
realize taking turns
they can express fully
without frustration.

Form

To realize form
is to allow its innate character.
Wise government
is not imposed.</BLOCKQUOTE>

Enjoy!

Love,

Val

[shelley]

Hi Val

Hilary recommended that book as much for the poems as anything. They're not exactly an interpretation of the hexagrams, more the result of Ramsay's meditation on the ideogram for each hex.

I often find that they speak powerfully to me at an intuitive level but then I can't quite grasp intellectually what they're saying. This is actually quite wonderful, since what brought me to this community was a strong desire to learn to read the I Ching more intuitively!

I like the Richmond you quoted. Might have to add that one to my wishlist.

Love,

Shelley