I have so much to learn

[alterbukintervw]

First, let me apologize if this seems mispost; I tend to touch every boundary I can, and thus I find that they are permeable, relative. I pray that I'm not transgressing for its own sake, but I am guilty of needing attention.

I'm considering the Yi from these perspectives: the phenomenology of Maurice Merleau-Ponty, as a commentary/in conversation w/ Yeats' 'A Vision', fate vs. destiny, Mathesis, Symmetry(scientific and otherwise), ... and poetry. Being damnably 'visual', I spend much of my time 'diagramming' things, I Ching and related, creating neologisms for what the alchemists took for granted.

I'm bowled-over by the wealth of information here. LiSe's page is a sanctuary. I'm inspired further to 'integrate' the Yi, in whatever way that I can, by your examples, all (see 'Brown', et al, below).

I'm humbled, and humbly proffer 'Yi', by Yang Lian, published by Green Integer Press, 2002. I'll post this in 'news/reviews' too. Has anybody seen it? Has it been recommended here?

What I love about it is (in no particular order),
a. it is bi-lingual
b. it is a poetic interpretation, for a change; complementary to translations, but bringing the cultural influence of things-Yi forward unequivocably (...).
c. as part of this interpretive approach, a different, and I think unique sequence of the hexagrams is presented - not a mystery, but novel, no? Read the author's description of how he has written/arranged the text, and leave the training-wheels behind! The interpretive effect is similar to, though different from that of 'The Portable Dragon', by Siu.

The I Ching is so voluminous in its possible interpretations, and I am overwhelmed with the desire to 'see it whole'. It is like being driven to speak an unspeakable word, it must be sung or something - I'm beholden to Karcher for the interpretations of readings I cast.

I think 'transliteration' is 'the' key, for me. Informatics. The Yi as an ur-search-engine. These things give me pause, a reason to persist.

As wind/wood, the Yi will influence even as it is influenced by this Anglophone/'Occident', this turbulent, negligent, anguished, idealistic, iconoclastic media-cracy. I'm put in the mind of Richard Rodrigueze's 'Brown; The final discovery of America'. Although I haven't read it yet. So little time and so much wine. Much time and little wine? I can't afford that habit, in any event.

[gene]

I guess I am a few days late, but happy birthday, Alter

[alterbukintervw]

Thank you, Gene. Thank you very much!

Looking back, through the title, to the dotty screed above, they are mismatched; I am saying: 'Look at me!, Look at all of these things that I know about! Am I not irresistably interesting? Don't you want to have a conversation with ME?

I'll be patient. Emergencies never completely, finally arrive, after all, do they?

I had another thought about the Yi today... one that I've probably had before, but only remembered now: that I am trying to describe the I Ching by seeing what it is not; by looking into its shadow in the light of 'other' things, things, more or less 'occidental'... which might be almost anything if one considers the I Ching to be the 'acme' of things 'Eastern'; 'Oriental' is not P.C., particularly after Edward Said's criticism of the term in his book, 'Orientalism'.

But I find that there is very little that the I Ching doesn't share some aspect of. Details that I can describe off of the top of my head... but another thought is that I have never, in thirty years of basic familiarity - sixteen, rather more intense - read the I Ching in its entirety; not even excluding the Wings; being a visual artist (socially impaired is another way to say this - I've never sold a piece of artwork), I have been led to study the forms of the hexagrams themselves; this is outside of long periods, intermittent, of using the Yi as an oracle, with marbles, coin-ratio, Mondo Secter's die-cut hex-cards or one of many notebooks, and a velveteen pouch...

What has become a life's (art-)work is the study of the hexagrams, though. There is 'Wing-matter' about forgetting the meaning, then the words, then the images... I'm not quoting, but roughly, poorly recalling the sequence... and it reminds me how I wonder about the modern-day manifestations of the Number School, versus the Meaning School -

What I am trying to get at here, is that I feel the Yi as a (symbolic) manifestation of (meta-)physical principles *that are not necessarily culturally specific* - say, to China. This sense comes, I feel, from having 'studied' the I Ching entirely outside of the Chinese cultural context; to the degree that I (or anyone else, I think) am 'interpreting' ANY aspect of the Yi from a translation - even assuming the scholarship of 'moderns'(Eastern and Western), done within/about the I Ching's socio-historical context, language, etc. just *in-parallel, in comparative terms* to the modern, global cultural milieu, -in a comparative sense, the Yi is still, after all, completely unique and applicable, its interpretation wholly subjective with regard to the context to/in which it is applied.

Having said all of that, I am well aware that the Sino-cultural tradition of I Ching commentary is IMMENSE, and it seems unlikely that whatever I might be thinking hasn't already been dealt with somewhere in there, beyond my ability to decipher it (I'm not absolutely innocent of the conceit, however). I have not given up the thought of beginning to learn Chinese language - for I will only ever be a beginner at this late date. I've cast my lot with the images, in this lifetime.

[alterbukintervw]

I think this might be more appropriately posted in the divination board. I'm going to see what I can do about that.

[yly2pg1]

"What I am trying to get at here, is that I feel the Yi as a (symbolic) manifestation of (meta-)physical principles *that are not necessarily culturally specific* - say, to China."

This resonates well with how i 'feel' about Yi.

[gene]

Hi Alter

I hadn't noticed any messages that would tend to say, "hey look at me," but then I don't look for that. If all I said was happy birthday it was just because I really didn't know at the time how to respond to some of the things you were saying.

We all have so much to learn. You are soooo right in saying "so voluminous in its possible interpretations..." I, like Confusion, wish I had another 50 years, no, 5000 years, to study the I Ching.

The I Ching can be such a personalized teacher. Carol Anthony has good books out about this aspect of the I Ching. Yet, when I read, I find that I get different lessons out of the lines than Anthony or another person would. It is such a fascinating study.

Gene

[jerryd]

Holding ones self open to learning and absorption of others ideas and interpertations is very difficult. It is said that if we do not clearify what we need to know early in this process it makes seperation of the inefectual from the relative position we chose to follow difficult and perhaps impossible. It is a bit like picking out ground pepper from gun powder, it takes practice and focus.(ie) The Braille reader and the sighted competing against each other to answer the same question first.

[alterbukintervw]

Jerryd,

"It is said", by whom? What tradition are you quoting from? And which aspect of the previous thread is your post designed to address?

In other words (not to put too fine a point on it), what's your point?

Thanks.

[jerryd]

Sad to say there is none as I placed my observation and quote in the wrong place; Ido hope you will forgive this transgression.

[alterbukintervw]

Sad to see you go, Jerryd. Thanks for passing through.

[prynne]

I am learning much, from your thoughts about what you have to learn. The run-off is clear.

[alterbukintervw]

Hi Prynne,

This is a huge compliment. Thank you. Taken as a whole, I am learning from each and every response I'm receiving - even, and almost in particular, from Jerryd's! I find your description, of '(clear) run-off' very satisfying, referring to an overflowing, perhaps churning quality... a chaos I am all too familiar with, and which Jerryd *seemed* to be speaking to, -although, I can be put in the frame of mind, oracular, in which whatever 'random response' I get, or choose to frame or notice, can be perceived as a relative metaphor for... for... 'the interview', I'm inclined to opine; there is a documentary (4hourlong, BBC) in alternative movie houses currently called '100 Years of the Self', about essentially Freud's invention of that construct, and its subsequent socio-historical implications, concentrating on his daughter, grandson, and Jung, among many others: or so I've heard. I would love to see it, but I'm afraid it's going to go underground before I can spend 4hours in San Francisco. My point, though, is that, in the fashion of the Yi, 'my' sense of self, at least, feels mediary and temporary. The Yi is conducive to that sensibility, maybe.

You know, I was reviewing some posts that I made to this board in the beginning of '04, and it is interesting to me what my approach was then, and the experience that I recollect through reviewing them... the thought that this is designed to preface is that I wish Chris Lofting's logic were not so impenetrable. But I preface to digress, and remember also that the board seemed more 'active' at the time, more populated... more people had substantial profile-pages than do now, and there were more long-running, feverish threads running... but I think that was also my first introduction to a message-board, as well.

I am not the same person I was at the time. I have undertaken two semesters of classes and one summer vacation since then. And yet, I still feel some embarassment at my 'performance' on the board then (an attachment to a sense of self, no doubt), more by the unresolved quality of those near-conversations - which perhaps never rose to the level of 'interview' - by which I'm referring to something alive, cyclical, ongoing relationship, not defined by a single questioner or respondent.

Stephen Crane uses the persona of the 'correspondent' to great effect to represent the self in his short story, 'The Open Boat'. The kicker to this astonishingly written - my favorite - short story is that it is based on the true events of his own experience; it is at once allegorical and autobiographical; he was a newspaper correspondent at the time that he survived a shipwreck, which is what the short story describes through an omniscient narrator.

Prynne, I haven't forgotten you. I am curious about the photo you've produced in your profile; it seems reminiscent of a series of fine-art films (a trilogy...triptych?) that were released in the 90's, whose names I can't remember ('something-ator'), but whose creator I remember is married to Bjork. I only know that the movies ran in museums rather than having wide theatrical release.

It is a beautiful image. What is your relationship to it?

Stuart and Frank also posted replies to another thread, which were very helpful. It's taken awhile for some of their insights to sink in. Another reason Jerryd's post seemed pertinent.

What matter, intention!??????

[jerryd]

Hello again Alter, I was in the area and see I have been mentioned here so I thought I might ask, What did I say which you related to so strongly? I am cursed with a nack of saying something which is either so absurd it is childish or so profound it scares me, which was it?

[prynne]

Matthew Barney? Why is is, Alter, that I do not trust him. Why is that. I resisted seeing his Cremaster cycle even in it's early stages, before it opened as a cycle in museums. If Bjork married him he cant be all bad, so maybe the future. Yes, my picture does look like his work.

I have heard of human dieties who manifest horses heads. This is my relation to the picture. That I love that.

I learn so much from your posts, it takes me a while to read one, worlds of references I long to dive into. Just now Stephen Crane, leads me to think of Edgar Allen Poe and why the heavens havent I been reading Edgar Allen Poe lately.

Yellow Rivers Culture, you know, I know nothing, so if you keep dropping posts like you have been, this bird will pick a seed now and then to keep me hopping for a long while.

I have much to learn about the Yi as well, but that does not stop it from helping me. It is a great friend.

I am going away for a while, I will not even has access to internet cafe, so unfortunately I will not be able to read your response. I wish you well, and thank you for sharing your thoughts.

100 years of self sounds....like a lot of people's lives I know, heh. Would love to see the series.

P.

[lordofdarkness]

Hi all, in my casual 'sweep' of public I Ching lists I find here Alter... writing:

"What I am trying to get at here, is that I feel the Yi as a (symbolic) manifestation of (meta-)physical principles *that are not necessarily culturally specific* - say, to China."

And

"...the thought that this is designed to preface is that I wish Chris Lofting's logic were not so impenetrable."

It isnt - you just need a course in it! ;-)

If you want to get into 'tertiary level' I Ching then you will need to join my group for that is where such discussions can be held.

That said, my IChingPlus is about what is behind the I Ching, its nature as a METAPHOR for what our neurology does and as such the ease in which it can be used as a source of analogy/metaphor for other metaphors. So, we do not focus on learning chinese etc but more on generic qualities of meanings, feelings, to which different cultures will give labels.

If you wish to stay with the specialist I Ching focused on 10th century BC China, thats fine, lots of interesting stuff, but your prose suggests you think there is more - and there is... but not only from a divination perspective, also from philosophical etc perspectives.

BTW - as you should have realised by know, I dont take things 'lightly' - the focus is I Ching from WITHIN IDM so some reading etc may be required - but the effort can be worth your while.

List address:

http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/ichingplus

your posts, as a newbie, will be moderated to start with.

I shall now back out leaving all in peace ;-)