Staring at the sun

[maremaria]

I’m using Yalom’s latest book title because I couldn’t find another title for this thread. That book and my question have a common theme : death.

My Q was “ which is the best way to proceed in that situation. And got 16.3.5 >31

The situation is the expected departure of a friend . Its not the first time someone I know and had a close relationship is dying but this time is a bit different. Here, in my country, doctors and relatives try to hide from the patient the truth. In my family happened the same. My cousin diagnosed with cancer and their closed relatives decided to hide that from her. I strongly disagree with that approach but I too didn’t tell her. I had to respect their decision but till today I’m not sure if I did the right thing.

Now, my friend, according to doctor will die soon. I talk to him , I try to be myself but this whole situation is terra incognita to me and “being myself” is not that clear what really is.

Perhaps Yi’ answer directly to my question Me and my friends situation, or more general about me and death, as this is the first time I have to “stare at the sun”.

I know its a difficult subject but anyone feels like sharing an insight , I’ld appreciate it.

Thank you
Maria

[zelion]

Maybe I'm wrong... but here are some ideas:

16.3 As you said, this line suggest this person should now the truth... Maybe this way your friend would be able to do the thinks that want to do, or maybe just your friend can prepare for the passing...

16.5 Well, this line says "...Chronic but not fatal..." Could it be that your friend does not necessarily has to die?

31 You have to influence your friend... giving him the information that you know? cheering up this person at the same time?

Well, I usually think that when there are more than one changing line, the importance of its message gets dissolved, so maybe 16.5 only refers to the disease.. and 16.3 its remembering you to do something about it, and stop hesitation..


In a nutshell, I think that this person should now the truth... thus your friend will be able to do what it has to do..

But I have to say that's this is a very delicate issue...

And maybe the Iching its only reflecting the situation:

Nobody told your friend (16.3) about the disease (16.5), but somebody need to tell him/her

If it was me... I would think the Yi talked me about the situation, maybe made a general diagnosis about it, a with the hint (implied in 16.3) that your friend should have knew about his disease (16.5)

But who knows.. maybe at this point it pointless to tell anything for your firnd.. maybe 16.3 its in the past.. thus...

I would ask the Yi again:

What would be the consequences of telling my friend the truth?

Maybe I only did some brainstorming.. but I hope it helps...

Zelion

[maremaria]

Hi Zelion,

thanks for your response.
I might not explained myself well. My friends knows. This is why this time is different for me. My past experience was either sudden deaths or "keep-it-secret" ones.

[zelion]

Oh I re-read your post, sorry about that!

Maybe the reply of the Yi could be as simple as:

You are trying to influence (31) your friend with Enthusiasm (16)

Maybe 16.3 is only reflecting that you don't know how to relate to the issue (16.5)


I would ask to the Yi:

What is the best I can do to help my friend?

Maybe the Yi will give you the clue as how to relate to your friend regarding the issue of his expected departure.

[maremaria]

thanks again Zelion.

I think the key word here is "inspiration". I word that was in front of me all the time but i couldn't "see" it.

Maria

[rodaki]

hi Maria
. . so sorry to hear about your friend . .
this is a difficult situation, you're right
I agree with your idea on inspiration -let me add my two-pence on your reading, with all hope that it might help somewhat . .

I think that 16 in this case talks about you painting a picture of the situation that makes you feel small . . and as such, you turn to someone else to show you what you feel in your gut (16.3)
16.5 could be you in the middle of thunder, shocked but not paralyzed, still holding
I get the sense that the image of reality that is dawning on you might make you obstruct your own feelings about it, hold yourself from showing how this influences you, perhaps in an effort to stand strong for your friend . .
being true to our feelings is all we can do for our loved ones . . maybe your reading tells you that the way to proceed is by resonating with every nuance of your feelings for what is happening to your friend . . even those that feel too much to behold . .

please bear with my ignorance if that does not sound true to you -I sincerely wish and hope for all that can bring you some deliverance in such hard times . .
:hug:
Dora

[my_key]

My Q was “ which is the best way to proceed in that situation. And got 16.3.5 >31

Hi Maria
My heart is with you at this difficult time. Perhaps the Yi is saying something like:
Allow what happens and how you feel in the situation to take you forward naturally. Don't push it and similarly don't get stuck in denial. If you do not address the matter directly it is something that you may later come to regret. This is something that needs to be discussed for both of you.

[zelion]

thanks again Zelion.

I think the key word here is "inspiration". I word that was in front of me all the time but i couldn't "see" it.

Maria

Right! influence (31) your friend with Enthusiasm (16) ... thus you can give your friend Inspiration!

Btw, very interesting interpretation Rodaki... maybe the Yi is reflecting thus what you are doing (16.3) and feeling (16.5) in this situation...

Neverthless, I think the best think you can do to your friend is, first, as Rodaki said, hold your negative feelings about the situation, but instead give inspiration to your friend!

Hope it helps... I wish you the best in this difficult times

:hug:

[rodaki]

hi Zelion

. . ehm . . thank you for your nice words but what I was trying to suggest was not about holding in the negative in favor of what could be good, but accepting all parts equally, both good and bad . .

[bamboo]

Dear Maria, Lots of love to you in this situation.

interesting, the title of the thread and the book, which I have not read. It kind of fit in with line 3, I thought, "looking upward for inspiration" and although it can be good to do that, in this line, someting else seems to be required. so a good response from yi to you...

In my experience, many people do not find it easy to be with one who is dying, it can make us feel awkward and shy, afraid of saying the "wrong thing" and a lot of other uncomfortable feelings. I love what Rodaki says and I liked zelion's words too. I suspect what people who are dying need is someone to be right there with them, embracing the process, which, by the way, can have an enormous amount of joy and beauty in it. Beyond the sadness of loss, there is a valuable component (in knowing of the pending death and preparation) of being able to tie loose ends together, to love the days of the past, to find meaning in the life, and also in the beauty of the friendship, the friend who can hold your hand with peacefulness.

when my father was dying, we had opportunity to be with him many days, week or more, and just for him to see us, and hear us talk, let him talk, and to enjoy one another was very soothing to him. We brought him his favorite thing: vanilla malteds. I think there are angels all around when someone approaches death, and these angels give us words, soothe, bring light to the experience. No one dies alone, as they say.

i think line 3 says "come down to the present and be right there" and line 5, dont be afraid to face finality of the earthly sojourn, accept what is, in full, and bring love to it. He is lucky to have you with him.

[maremaria]

I love everything you say here. Zelion, Dora, Mike, Bamboo thank you.

While pondering on 16 I felt the need to look up at the dictionary for the meaning of word “enthousiasm”. And I found this.


The source of the word is the Greek enthousiasmos, which ultimately comes from the adjective entheos, “having the god within,” formed from en, “in, within,” and theos, “god.”



I spend much time at LiSe’s website, were she talks about inspiration, but it didn’t make sense. But after looking at the dictionary, suddenly everything became clear.
The situation is more complicate than I described but details are not that important anymore.
Yesterday I had a nice chat with that friend. I let him know my feelings and he talked about his too. I was more present than the times before. Because I was there not just for him but for me too. And that was great.

I’ld like to give a more detailed feedback regarding the lines and my thoughts but I need to leave them a bit open for the time being.

Thank you again for your insights and your warm words.

:hug:

Maria

[jilt]

Dear Maria, Lots of love for you.

I think Bamboo is very right. dying is as taking a threshold to another plane of life and love. Don't hesitate to support your loved ones on that threshold (line 3) and we are always longing for that other plane of existance (line 5) but are afraid for dying.
Also, a society that ignores death and dying will always be in the state of line 5.

[hilary]

This is embarrassing to write, but I wonder if line 5 isn't Yi being very blunt and robust and unsubtle, telling you that right now, your friend is as not dead as ever.

I had a maybe-similar experience with 31 some years ago. My friends I knew from orchestra had been trying for years for a baby, and finally she got pregnant - great joy. Then, many months into the pregnancy, she miscarried. I know for some people this is not such a big thing, but for them it was a bereavement. I found out from her husband, who called me a few minutes before he came to give me a lift to orchestra... so I would be sitting in a car for 30 minutes with this man, and I had No Clue what I needed to do/ say/ be. I asked Yi, and got 31 unchanging.

I found it had to do with being open and creating a space to receive the other person. LiSe talks about this - the mountain that has space for the lake, but is still a mountain. Of course there was nothing I 'needed to say' at all.

Wait, Bamboo has already said all this much better, and you've already found your mountain.

[maremaria]

Aw, thank you Bert and Hilary. I agree with what you say and thank you for your support. :hug:

Btw, I “heard” also what you said about 16.5, so no worries Not to mention that I have that gut feeling that 16.5 might be a pretty literally answer.

And re 31, what LiSe says was the question behind my question. How become the lake without losing the mountain. And some time ago the answer I got about the same issue was 41, again creating a space.

Something else relevant/irrelevant. Long time ago I was talking with a friend about faith, trust, God , universe. With my mind I understood perfectly what he was talking about but my heart haven’t got a clue what he was talking about. But those reading and some other I had in the past echo his words but this time, I can understand and every another- time I understand better. It’s the “That ( god/whatever you want to call it) within” . And even thing are difficult, there is that voice that says “everything will be OK”