The Tao-ites and the Karcher-ites

[misslotusshoes]

Daguang Mingdian
Hall of Great Brightness

Dear L,

When posting at a certain forum, I do try to aggravate some with vagueness or facts off-kilter. It is a Taoist technique, albeit not much appreciated by the Karcherites (just kidding.) If the teacher engages this rational mind and its eternal squawking, eventually this realization may be begin to unfold. In the ranks of the adepts it would at this point with precise timing that the Zen monk was take a stick and with a roar start beating on the squabbling students: "Find your original face! Now! Find you Tao-mind, to there! Now!

Only by this method of shocking the student out of ordinary self-defeating thought patterns-would the realization dawn: words as very imperfect mediums for describing the thing they purport to desribe and that Tao cannot be transmitted by words or rarely by words* and requires intuitive and direct understanding, not even the teacher can do it for you (but they do point you in the right direction). Hence, nothing stands between you and the Universal Divine One. No authority, no teacher, no abbot or monk, no author, no-person just yourself.

Only your Tao-mind can sense the teacher that appears for you. Do you believe that when the student is ready the teacher appears? Actually in Taoist thought, the teacher appears in varying forms until your Tao-mind sees what is actually in front of you. Imagine teachers, invisible to you, standing on their heads, knocking over vases-just trying vainly for some attention!

That is why there are traditional admonitions to keep a peaceful and happy mind and to possess equanimiy towards everyone, seeing them with an authentic kind heart. This is the only way one can be open to seeing the teacher. This state of mind is not always easy to achieve!

Its a fact, then:, Taoism 101. If your heart is not peaceful, you cannot see the teacher, and experience the helping energies and the joy of the magical world! "The Incredible Lightness of Being," so this state of mind is aptly described. For the Karcherites we need less words! More intuition, more happiness!

Yours in Tao-mind,

Lotus Shoes

*(although the 6th Zen patriarch a simple monk who performed housekeeping tasks became enlightened by merely listening with a profoundly open heart, to the Abbot read the Diamond Sutra and was elevated by elder patriach's realization of his innate spiritual abilities, became the next Abbot)*

[misslotusshoes]

The I Ching points to this as "Be like a tiger spying." Your Tao-mind is this tiger. Happy hunting!

Lotus

[arien]

"Find your original face! Now!"

Now where have I heard that before....
Is that YOU miss Dragon? http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif

[misslotusshoes]

Hall of Great Brightness

Dear Arien: The 'find your original face' shows the lasting effect that Lise's words have on this forum and others. Studying haiku and Zen are particularly helpful to the baffled always-in-your-mind Western brain person.

Here's more: To understand Tao aids in a deeper understanding of the Yi.

Tao (what is it exactly) East v. West

It is said follow your nature and be in accord with Tao What does this mean?. Tao is at once the Ultimate State, the path toe attaining it, or a person who is formally training to be a tao-ist, or an elusive state of heightened awareness such as one attains in writing a haiku or for the person seeing the Tao in the poem. To a person who sees in terms of Tao as a PROCESS**, tao can be all these things.* For example, if one explains Taoism in terms of its sects or teachings-e.g. Kunlun Shan Taoism, Celestial Master Taoism or even philosophical or religious taoism, he has missed the point, chopped up the subject into entities and categories. Of course, it can be all these categories but at once Tao is more and greater than the sum of any categories. Tao-ism, Tao-ist are western language conventions-we emphasize the 'ist' and the 'ism' not the Tao-the fundamental process, the backdrop against which these categories appear.

Achieving Tao is one thing; being in Tao refers to perhaps that intutional awareness that steals over one, if only for a moment. Its the instant when one perceives the pattern-see the Tao in a poem or a book. In that moment, one is Tao, one is aware of Tao, and is a 'Taoist" even a 'practicing Taoist. Being in Tao can also describe-one who has achieved Tao for the majority of his or her life.' All these expressions, even if some may even seem contradictory, are Tao.

Another perceptual problem we have has a cultural bias. We divide our religions into sects and denominations. Unlike converting to Methodism, for example, one essentially does and cannot 'covert' to Taoism. One may study with a certain Taoist lineage and a certain Celestial Master but Tao stripped of all outer forms is not dependent on whether or not you have faith or belief in it. Tao has always been there and will always be there. It is Tao.

It is our subject-object language structure and certain other conventions that this difficult for us. Even in the way we process information* that makes this process-awareness difficult to comprehend. Yet, we must be willing to see more in a Eastern way if we are to understand the I Ching more completely for at the heart of the I Ching, its root directory, has always been 'Tao.'


*The Geography of Thought: How Asians and Westerners Think Differently
? and Why
By Richard E. Nisbett
The Free Press, 2003

Professor Nisbett's comparative studies include research he and his students conducted at the University of Michigan, at Beijing University, Kyoto University, Seoul National University, and at the Chinese Institute of Psychology.

The results of his work demonstrate "that there are dramatic
differences in the nature of Asian and European thought processes."

"The evidence lends support," Dr. Nesbitt goes on to say, "to the claims of nonpsychologist scholars" that East and West actually see, mentally organize, emotionally evaluate, and behaviorally respond in ways that are organically, and therefore fundamentally, different.

Professor Nisbett addresses, among other relevant issues:
*why Asians are better able to see relationships among events, where Westerners see actors as primary causes for things happening; *why Westerners are likely to overlook the influence of context on behavior;*why Western children learn nouns (names for things) first, while Asians learn verbs (interaction) earlier;
* why Westerners rely on logic when reasoning about daily events, and
*how is it that Asians can hold any number of contrary propositions at the same time.

Another explanation by Gene Johnson:

**The number four is the key number of geometry and mathematics, sciences which are the foundation of western civilization. The four is the progression from a dichotomy
(perception of simple contrasts, 'this' and 'that' ) to the double dichotomy ( 2 X 2 ) which produces the grid, the matrix for pattern awareness, cognition. Marc Jones in his Fundamentals of Number Significance, says:
"Multiplied by itself the TWO produces the grid that is perhaps the most common basis for diagramming and understanding all structuring, either by nature or by man in an imitation of natural development of any solid or tangible sort...The symbolization of pure number presents the FOUR as the case of the service to each other of two systems of coordinates such as time and position. "
Jones goes on to say " The FOUR always identifies a relationship in variation of occasion in connection with function, and this in practical everyday fact is what always can be seen to be the building operations or the simple maintenance responsibility through the whole spread of nature at large....the development and perfection of the cooperation between purpose and potential leading to the ends thus sought is the never deviating concern of any TWO emphasis . Thus in numerology it is the FOUR that is the fundamental fabricator in every sense of the term"

The Logic system of the number 5:

Jones says "the FIVE reveals the basic establishment of selfhood in its utterly ecstatic maintenance of an innate poise in the total context of all the swirling convergence's of reality of each special moment ...He adapts the sheer liquidity of the universe of flux to the ends in view of his own." Anyone who has ever attempted to discover the interface between the western "four elements" and the Chinese "five elements" will have an immediate appreciation of the nuances of the FOUR and FIVE and the ramification these have had on shaping the two cultures.
As has been noted oriental science/philosophy, particularly the Chinese, attends primarily to an "energy process' perspective while in the west the emphasis is on the manipulation of matter. Consequently the western "four elements" describe a fundamentally functional/structural reality. The Chinese "five elements", on the other hand, have nothing "substantial" about them at all, but are instead essentially "moving agents".
Another characteristic of the attitude of the FIVE is in its perception of CAUSE. Because the FOUR can plot everything, i.e., everything in its limited universe, it does not give reality to anything it can't connect with a cause. The FIVE, however, is at home in the swirling convergence's of reality and therefore does not waste a lot of energy attempting to sharply delineate chains of cause and effect. This is expressed by Buddha's doctrine of "interdependent origination" - any effect is the product of such a vast multitude of interdependent causes it is impossible to identify a given chain of causes with any certainty.

It would seem fundamental for every I Ching student to know this first before puzzling over the hexagrams and line statements. I am not aware that the Karcherites see this East-West phonomena at all but would like to hear their ideas in this area.

Lotus

[hilary]

Hello, M - um, Miss Lotusshoes...

How would you describe a 'Karcherite'? This sect is a new one on me - I think we need an outline of its beliefs and practices...

[arien]

And dont forget Marshallites, they arent half as annoying but they deserve their own niche nonetheless

[anon1]

Dear Lotus

I enjoy your clever writing.

Sadly though it betrays you as being of a Western mind set ;)

I am so sorry to think of how your Eastern mind must have suffered so with the ravages of western education.

Good greetings

A Ma Xia?ist Warrior Entity.

[frandoch]

Those who 'explain' the Tao, do not 'know' it.

Michael F.

[lenardthefast]

Michael,

Is that a confession?

Namaste,
Leonard

[misslotusshoes]

Those who explain do not know-I am not explaining Tao, I am explaining western vs. eastern mind set. Tao, when seen a process rather than word that sharply denotes what it is supposed to be describing. Tao at once describes those things I have described, being in tao for the moment, being on the path of tao and achieving Tao- the ultimate state, "beyond words, thoughts, and expressions"

One cannot help the mind set, East or West, which one is born into. In understanding the Book of Changes one's experience will be greatly enhanced, one's understanding deepened, if one is AWARE of the differences . And it does help to work at the nonlinear thought process, to realize that word-object language structure is not the language structure which gave birth to the I Ching and that chopping and dicing the book into western categories is something one should be aware of doing. We lost something in the transmission from the Chinese. We translate faithfully yet do not understand that a faithful word translation by itself cannot fully reach into the mysteries of chi and divination and the I Ching. This is a threshold understanding of the Tao-ite. The Karcher-ite seems faithful to the Western theory of four, words-based, not process-based and without any awareness of the cultural differences that are very profound.

Thanks for all these great comments-guess its time to get out the Karcher book and re-read it. My ideas about the Karcher-ites (allow a little poetic license, please) come from reading the postings here on the list, although I have studied Karcher and used to book faithfully for 3 years, I was not as adept in east vs. west cognition and language structure then nor was much written on the subject. Alan Watts in his book, The Way of Zen, treats this subject at length in the first few chapters. It was a real eye opener for me.

Lotus

PS I certainly mean no disrespect to Mr Karcher and he may have written or come to an understanding of East vs. West in the ways I have described. I certainly mean to keep this category out of Marshall-ite type thing-that's more in the way of history and modern historical methodology.

[hilary]

??!?

Lotus, I would definitely suggest you find yourself a copy of Total I Ching. If there were such a thing as a pure TIC-ite, s/he would definitely not fit into the category you delineate so neatly.

By the way, you started out addressing this thread to 'L' - if you meant Luis, wasn't he the one who said that your own elastic-facts style actually reminded him of Total I Ching?

[sparhawk]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

By the way, you started out addressing this thread to 'L' - if you meant Luis, wasn't he the one who said that your own elastic-facts style actually reminded him of Total I Ching?<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uh?!?

Now, now Hilary. Don't get me in trouble. I haven't even posted anything here. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

Besides, I like Caroline. She seems - how should I put it? - flexible and Taoist to boot. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif

BTW, I went to see "Cold Mountain" last night. Good movie. Some farfetched indicia of Taoism may be present. If you look hard and your heart is into it, that is. Which actually applies to all walks of life, if you really think about it. I would like to recommend a very good book to you. Is called "The Tao of Photography" (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1580081940/104-7502002-2166302)

L

[anon1]

Dear Lotus

The hole you are digging is getting so deep that it is barely possible to hear you!

You must live a sheltered life to be talking in terms of Western and Eastern Mindsets!!!

Did you miss the last 30 years in Europe?

Did you miss the last thirty years in India?

If you want a Guru or senior Budhist you will find them in the US or Europe ? Fact.

India is a major Tiger economy which on the whole eschews many of its Asian roots? Most Asians I work with are more Western than me!!! (I am European not American like yourself?)

Please? drop the old dichotomy? More and more we are who we choose and learn to be.

BTW? Most Chinese I know (immigrant Chinese from Hong Kong and the Mainland) are very ?Chinese?? Ferociously into making wealth and for the promotion and good of their extended family? Very able and good people? let us not confuse the Eastern mindset with having anything to do with wisdom and learning?

Alas

[anon1]

Correction

"Let us not confuse the Eastern mindset as necesarilly having anything to do with spiritual wisdom and learning."

[hilary]

Oops, sorry, L. I certainly wouldn't want to get you in any trouble. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/footinmouth.gif

[misslotusshoes]

Dr. Leonard,Frandoch, Hilary and all,

First, Leonard its nice to see your moderating and polite energies.

I do not intend what I am saying desintegrate into the personal, in the context of this discussion would be tangential,although War Entity is perhaps insightful. To go over to the personal would defeat this a discussion of some ideas rather than some peope-a rather boring, predictable subject.

Tthe Miracle of the Three-Tao-ite Shorthand

A Tao-ite by way of general perception sees these 'swirling convergences' of trying to describe Tao usually say in a shorthand fashion: yin is; one, yang is two; when they interact this is the 'miracle of the three.'

As imperfect as words may be this way of saying or describing tao is better than the traditional western subject-object dilineation for by wording it emphasizes the process, the tao-process and tries to focus the consciousness on the process. So, the 'miracle of the three' has become the expression for the tao-ite.

We have known for a long time that words themselves dilineate reality for people. If we use the wrong words* or wording we create a mind set for the perceiver, a prism that he sees 'reality' through, now made even worse that the usual human perception-failures[such as bias, prejudice] that were there to begin with.

**Also explained by Alan Watts (mostly)

*Re: How do it Work? Word Tyranny in Language Structure
The reason why Taoism and I Ching theory present, at first sight such a puzzle to the Western mind is that we have taken a restricted view of human knowledge. For us, almost all knowledge is what a Taoist would call CONVENTIONAL knowledge because we do not feel that we know anything unless we can represent to ourselves in words,( or in some other system of conventional signs such as the notation of mathematics or music) . Such knowledge is called conventional because it is a matter of social agreement as to the codes of communication.

Just as people speaking the same language have tacit agreements as what words shall stand for what things, so the members of every society and every culture are united by the bonds of communication resting upon all kinds of agreement as to the classification and valuation of actions and things.

The task of education is to make the children fit to live in a society by persuading them to learn and accept it codes-the rules and conventions of communication. Spoken language is especially part of the codes and rules of convention. The child is taught to accept "tree" instead of boomjun, for example.
What is MUCH LESS OBVIOUS is that convention also governs the delineation of the thing to which the word is assigned. For the child has to be taught not only what words stand for what things, but also the way in which his culture has tacitly agreed to divide things from each other, to mark out the boundaries within our daily experience. Thus scientific convention decides whether an eel shall be a fish or a snake, and
GRAMMATICAL convention determines what experience shall be called objects and what shall be events or actions.......These grammatical conventions of language are arbitrary yet fundamental to our thought processes.
This is why we have difficulty in terms of our language structure seeing their Eastern world, the mythical landscape, and the way they see themselves in it. All this to due to different, yet both valuable, profoundly different grammatical conventions. How arbitrary these grammatical conventions are may be demonstrated: What happens to my fist (noun-object) when I open my hand? The object (fist) miraculously vanishes because an ACTION was disguised by a part of speech usually assigned to a thing.!! In English the differences between things and actions are clearly if not always logically distinguished but a great number of Chinese words do duty for both nouns and verbs-
SO ONE WHO THINKS IN CHINESE has little difficulty in seeing that objects are also events, that our world is a collection of processes rather than entities.

[misslotusshoes]

Daguang Mingdian
Hall of Great Brightness

Divination as a Process

The other thing a Tao-ite would consider is the I Ching divination process. I Ching divination in Eastern terms (nobody can 100% generalize) is a, need I say, PROCESS. The process whereby you (the querent) ask a question, manipulate the medium (such as yarrow or coins) whereby CHI causes the Answer to appear as found in the I Ching hexagram and line statements.

[You never see CHI explained by the Chinese, it seems almost an assumption. the mystery of how CHI works and how it answers the question is is one of those myteries touched upon my Ni and others.) I guess we have in the West have substitued the theories of synchronicity and others of the subconscious for the mysteries of CHI].

Because divination in Eastern model is a process in which the querent, the medium, and the formation of the answer by CHI in terms of hexagrams and lines are not separated into distinct entities-one doesn't happen without the other . With this sort of model, the separation of the querent and the medium doesn't happen. CHI does not respect probabilities-it is seen as having intelligence and responding to the question. Within limits, no matter what the medium, the answer, in this view is that it would be the same no matter what the medium. (The Zhou did have a saying that tortoise shells are long and yarrow stalks are short-meaniing shell more accurate than stalk so I cannot speak in black and white, all or nothing terms. There will be exceptions, cultural preferences, myth and so forth that will temper the idea.)
So I suggest that we may have have one more fundamental distinction between how the West and how the East see divination and the I Ching.

Yours faithfully,

Miss Lotus Shoes

[sparhawk]

Hilary,
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

Oops, sorry, L. I certainly wouldn't want to get you in any trouble.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Too late... Now I know what you meant though... http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

L

[misslotusshoes]

Oh and for anon1, if these ideas of Watts and other have no validity for you and you can't even hear Dear Miss Lotus Shoes, why not book it and find a thread worthy of yourself? The I Ching as it came to the West from Wilhelm and Legge came a long time ago without any awareness of this difference.

Modern treatments of this subject (East vs. West) matter go into greater and more minute detail-even down into, gasp, basic cognition. The field is very active, probably because the cultural differences still exist. And according to their theories, as long as our language structure is so profoundly different we will both continue to process basic information and see our respective worlds differently.

I don't present this as some religion or true believer stuff-these are ideas, remember ideas?


Miss Lotus

[misslotusshoes]

Hall of Bright Clarity

Its no wonder there is no comment on-point in the forum-this is not an every day I Ching subject
The ideas that have been presented here take time to digest. The Tao-ites see Tao as fundamental to the I Ching and are mindful of cultural differences and are aware that the culture(s) that developed the Book of Changes are coming from vastly different perceptual ways of looking at things. So you may just be content to know that a school of I Ching thought-the Tao-ites learn these concepts first.

For Mr. Anon and so forth-the ritual is the same. First, the cryptic comment designed to show your tremendously greater knowledge of the subject, that you are immensely better than the writer. Then there comes the sweeping criticism-its only for effect.Your argument is so baseless that you get to demean your audience as well. Then the withering put down. Mr. Anon, it never seems to matter what the subject is because you the same ritual. Its all about you isn't it?

Miss Lotus Shoes suggests that she put on her stiletto lotus shoes and walk on your back whilst you sincerely offer your penance for thise narcissist, repetitive, and ritualistic behavior!.

However, the women have another idea. We surround you, offering you love, sympathy-all of us Princess Diana clones-we come closer to you, closer. Yes, physical contact is what seek, sympthy, smarminess, dripping with caring and understanding, ever closer to you, Mr. Anon. You bad little boy!

Remember, Miss Lotus Shoes has stiletto heels in the 7 and 9 inch variety and Miss Lotus Shoes has the shoes that were made for walking!

Yours faithfully,

Lotus, Shoes

[hilary]

I suppose the problem is, dear Lotus Shoes, that I can't quite find the windmill you're tilting at anywhere. We are looking for some particularly obtuse Westerner who imagines that the Yi is run by the laws of probability, that the querent and medium are separable, and who refuses to believe that there is any relevant difference between Chinese and European ways of understanding the world...

...still looking...

[misslotusshoes]

I wonder dear Hil, why you think this topic would be an attempt to convert you to a way of thinking. I am not aware that a person who has come in contact with these ideas would be considered obtuse. These ideas are threshold ideas about to view the I Ching and its Taoistic past. The ideas are rarely discussed. Is there a problem with this, should we stick to personalities rather than ideas. Hmmm. When is an idea an windmill anyway? Do you think Miss Lotus Shoes is invested in the way you think? I would put it this way: if the idea has some resonance with your thought process, fine; if not, fine too. Its no problem, no problem at all.
But you might want to know, factually speaking, how a group of people,your peers, I call the Tao-ites, look at the I Ching. When considered from this perspective, the ideas are merely factual. Miss LOtus Shoes completely believes in freedom to think as you are inclined to do. As for the ideas themselves, it is sufficient merely to be exposed to them.

I wonder how anyone would get the idea that Miss Lotus Shoes would somehow be pleased if you were a panting like a hound dog, tale wagging, telling her how wonderful these ideas are? No, not at all. Miss Lotus Shoes is far to discerning for that. I see a certain idea that by rejecting the idea you reject the writer and by doing so one aquires a certain power and status within the group. This seems petty and calculated. How silly! When did you forget about ideas?

Remember Miss Lotus Shoes will never ask you to sign a release!

Yours faithfully,

Miss Lotus Shoes

[hilary]

Dear Lotus,

Unless I am missing something (impossible!) you have the wrong end of a long stick here. All the ideas you attribute to the 'Tao-ites' are absolutely fine with me. My tail is thumping the floor quite happily.

The difficulty arises when you seem to have this funny idea that there are some people called Karcher-ites, who have half-witted ideas that are nothing to do with anything Stephen K ever wrote. Where are these people? Let's have an extract from their writings so we can take them properly to task!

[misslotusshoes]

Dear Hilary:
Why take them [Karcherites] to task? Tao-ites do believe in groupthink and agitprop- IN the Tao-ite view, one should a tiger spying about hopefully nourishment from the highest sources.

One tiger can never tell another what to think or see nor does any real tiger feel threatened by things it may not see. Everyone must see for her/himself-that is Tigerism 101. No one should any tiger be berated for what they see, especially if you yourself do not see it. That is conduct unbecoming a tiger!

Did you know that tigers have stripped skin? Now that's a real tiger, a tiger all the way through! Not serving superficial egoistic needs and concerns but devotedly seeking nutrition from the one above.
You are a publicist's dream, dear Miss Hilary, caught up in the labels and appearances! What is a Karcher-ite anyway?
Miss Lotus Shoes speaks to tigers be they Tao-ites, Karcher-ites it doesn't matter as long as the stripes can be seen by all!

Your faithfully,
Miss Lotus Shoes

[hilary]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

What is a Karcher-ite anyway?<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just what I was hoping you might tell me, since I'd never met one... Perhaps, if no-one knows, there's no such thing after all.

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/tiger.gif

[ryder]

Poor Carl Jung has taken a terrible beating lately. See Deirdre Bair's new book "Jung: A Biography," and you may be surprised to discover what a more-or-less balanced and neutral investigation reveals. Bair tries to be fair, but Jung will never be the same for me.

[sparhawk]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

Yes, Luis, you must be right. It is just like us Westerners to appropriate whatever is useful wherever we find it. That is a more convincing idea than making the Yi out to be a haven for the disgruntled.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. Very honest of you. Behold! The

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/786/1567.jpg


Luis

[hilary]

I certainly hope that Miss Lotusshoes, Sun Puerh and Midaughter will be able to reach a consensus opinion... http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

Jung as filtered through Karcher, anyway, comes over as saying in no uncertain terms that the universe responds to our thoughts, both in spontaneous synchronicities and in divination.

Brad - yes, I had wang lai in mind. Stephen K makes a bigger thing of this than ever in TIC; LiSe has a wonderful explanation of the characters that makes the idea a whole lot more assimilable. And I picked up from a Chinese book the idea that the modern Chinese equivalent of an abstract noun can be two opposed verbs, like buy-sell meaning business. That made me see the Judgement of 48 in a new light: go-come versus well-well. (Are there many pure abstract nouns in EOC?)

Ryder - oops, sorry. I was picking up on the reference Miss LS made to Alan Watts, and English working in nouns where Chinese works in verbs (or words that can be both, in the Zhouyi.) Because we can refer in English to 'the future' in the same way we can refer to 'the cat', we get the idea we should be able to describe it and know about it in the same way. But this idea is purely an artefact of our language.

'Coming' just suggests that events and patterns are coming towards you, like those Tetris pieces. They exist already, but the particular form they'll take when they land is an unfolding process, not a 'thing'.

Am I making any kind of sense?

[ryder]

Just a few words on the noun/verb thing. Thank heaven God invented the gerund! I used to be so convinced that every noun in the Yi is really a verb in disguise that I translated all my gua names with -ing endings. So 16. Yu became "Enthusing", 44. Jing became "Welling", and 50. Ding became "Ritual Serving". And so on. I've since changed my mind about this. My new kitten has scratched me so many times I have no illusions about the existence of objects.

[bradford_h]

Hi Hilary
RE: (Are there many pure abstract nouns in EOC?)
I think so, the modernists disagree, and would reduce it all to concrete objects and operations.
To me Heng and Zhen (fulfillment and persistence) are such terms.
But of course the "noun" is not nearly as hard a category in EO Chinese and equally valid translations can use different parts of speech. You Fu, for instance, is equally valid as "being true" or "having truth". These are the words the moderists translate "there will be a capture" or Wilhelm as "if you are sincere."

[ryder]

Sorry, Hilary, I posted before I saw your message. I'm trying not to be a pathological poster, but I still don't entirely get it. It is certainly true that "the cat" and "the future" are quite different, but wouldn't the same difference exist between any tangible object and an abstract idea? The "cat" vs. the "truth"? Now let's say the idea of the future is adequately expressed by "coming" - my next question would be, coming from where? Where does what is happening in the present come from? This is that "river running backward" business I've never been able to grasp. Is there a big storehouse of events out there that is rushing at us? Or maybe the future unfolds like an accordion? Where do the Tetris blocks come from? Help!

[frandoch]

The concept of time as flowing from the 'past' to the 'future' is a construct of the conscious mind as a way to explain 'change'. The subconscious and unconscious minds have no concept of time as a flow. To them, everything is in the NOW moment. Our left brains operate logically, i.e. in a linear manner, because we have thoughts one after another, but the right brain operates holistically.

Consider an analogy - that life events (and possibly past lives, if you're into that)are a series of CDs laid out in a long line stretching from the 'past' to the 'future'. This is how the left brain experiences reality. Now consider that the CDs are collected up and placed in a vertical stack. This will mean that all these events are actually in the NOW moment, and some spiritual disciplines believe that they are all accessible.

Perhaps our linear thinking allows us to experience things one at a time, instead of all at once, cos then, what would we do for the rest of eternity ?

Michael F.

[hilary]

Ah, but Michael, our flow here is going the other way: from future to past. And there isn't such a thing as 'the rest of eternity', surely - isn't eternity the absence of time?

Anyway, wherever do the Tetris blocks come from? I think I'd better read the Dazhuan - again.

Another way might indeed be to see it all simultaneously present, in Michael's style (it may not make much odds which way up we stack our CDs) but at different 'levels' of reality-for-us? That which isn't yet present as reality is already present as pattern, which is why we can 'know the seeds'.

But this is coming out unspeakably garbled. Don't take my word for it - read the Dazhuan. Richard Rutt's translation (in his 'Zhouyi') is very plain and simple, no later metaphysical strata added. Well, perhaps not exactly simple, but plain.

[lenardthefast]

Hi Michael,

What a truly wonderful analogy for a concept that is extremely difficult for the human brain to comprehend. Read a Sci-American article about 1 1/2 years ago where the author(a Brit physicist, I believe), was postulating that there was absolutely no 'flow' of time whatsoever; it was a totally human concept and that everything was actually all happening simultaneously.(past, present AND future). No Big Bang, just a Big NOW.

When I finished reading the article my brain felt like silly putty; reminded me of trying to pet a bubble when I was a child and feeling perplexed at the 'almost' of it. I believe it but I certainly haven't experienced it. (yet)

Anyway, thanks for the analogy, even if I DO have to put away all these CD's. (In a stack, of course...Now, lets see, should I try alphabetically by artist or were they by musical type or was it chronologically...nope, THAT won't work anymore 'cos there is no chrono.....dern, I think I'll just put 'em in the machine and press 'shuffle'.)

Namaste,
Leonardhttp://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/hex04.gif

[django]

Hi
regarding a previous post, in that Joseph Needham spent 40 years trying to discover why the Chinese never had a science [like us] if I remember an emminent scientist asked Jung that very question
to which Jung replied..."oh but they have, It is called the I Ching.

I see in an other post someone has read a new biography on Jung and has managed to change their view of "the Great Man" ...well biographies are easy when the subject is dead and not there to address any criticism. Some how I reckon Jung will still be there when the biographer is looooong gone.
Django.

[lenardthefast]

Thanks, Django,

He was a GREAT man, and no biographer can change what he has helped me to understand. I regard him as one of the heros of our time, perhaps, all time.(Oh, if that exists anymore) *grin* I say FOOEY and PFUTTS to all who would disparage him. May a small curse infect their bottoms and irritate them whenever they sit.

Oh so true what you say also about deriding the dead, shame on them.

Right on, Bro.

Namaste,
Leonard

[gene]

I am tiger hear me roar
My claws too sharp to ignore.
And you best not tread upon my tail.
If my claws don't get to you
My teeth are quite sharp too
And you know they surely will prevail.

Yes, I am strong like the first gua the creative
But can be soft like gua two the receptive.

I know you are all thinking. SHUT UP!!! So I will

Gene

[ryder]

My God, the ignorance in this forum is thicker than molasses. Nobody seems to know what they are talking about. Nobody seems to know much of anything about anything. How do you avoid boring each other to death with your muddle? You call this ?clarity?? I?d hate to witness confusion. But don?t disturb yourselves ? I can find the door. I need a little oxygen. Maybe the stimulation of talking with an intelligent 8 year-old. Goodbye.

[misslotusshoes]

Mr Longhushan
Temple of Tiger Shaman, Liu

MLS was thinking today that its time we major groups of I Ching practice-Jungian, Confucian, Taoist, and Buddhist (hardly anyone ever thinks of them) approaches. [What categories best describe us really?] Isn't it time we knew each other and could be familiar with the fundamentals of each?

The Buddhists are very wise in their concept of time: They say "only the unenlightened perceive the flow of time" To them there is a realm where time flows and also a timeless realm existing alongside of it.

The Buddhists are also wise in the ways of the moon. "Put aside all conflict and purify on the full moon."

After seeing Luis' picture, MLS cannot say more, the moon is at the full!

Blessings,

MLS

[heylise]

That which isn't yet present as reality is already present as pattern, which is why we can 'know the seeds'.

But this is coming out unspeakably garbled. Don't take my
word for it - read the Dazhuan.

Or read quantum mechanics: everything is present as a wave, but our 'looking at it' makes it collapse into an event.

LiSe

[hilary]

Nice pattern, LiSe http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

Thank heavens for ignorance - how else would we learn anything?
(Scientific mindset, 101...)

[chrislofting]

LiSe,

not so simple re QM ;-) the WHOLE is a direct reflection of the IC (particle - yang, differentiating. wave - yin, integrating - whole androgyne ;-) - but the representation of the whole, its overall integration is reflected in yiness - yang is exaggeration ;-)

The structuring of our experiments have come out of 'yangness' and in doing so have ignored considering that both yin and yang are expressed!

yangness is the realm of our consciousness nature and as such is parts oriented, serial in thinking. Yinness, or what it represents expressed as a part is the realm of our species nature - it is holistic in that it interacts immediately with the context, stimulus/response.

Our consciousness does not appreciate that and so creates paradox when it creates experiments!

see:

http://www.austarmetro.com.au/~lofting/species.html

Chris.

[lenardthefast]

I live in my own little world. But it's OK. They know me here.

Namaste,http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/hex04.gif
Leonard