God, soul, spirit.

[candid]

Can any of our scholars tell me if there are words in Chinese for God, soul or spirit? If so, what are the differences from how we in the west typically interpret them?

Thanks

[rinda]

Wonderful question!

Rinda

[bradford_h]

Hi Candid-
The Hun spirit ascends at death as Shen, spirit itself, but may remain A spirit.
The Po, the sentient, animal or inferior soul, remains earthbound, often lingering as a Gui or ghost.
The Qi is of course the life force, to which individuality and ego mean nothing.
The question of a personal deity is relative to both the subculture and the dynasty you ask the question of. Missionary types love to translate Shang Di, used in the Yi, as God Above or Lord on High, with a will and a plan just like the Judeo-Christian God. Maybe this is true of the more superstitous masses, but I personally think that at the more sophisticated levels of society, the diviners and the royal Zhou court,Shang Di meant simply the "Highest Divinity" that we are capable of grasping, the Sacred Clockworks that was more pattern and natural law than plan, and Divine Will mainly in the sense of This Is What Will Be Because Heaven Turns This Way.
Subculture is important even within a given religion. Both Theravada Buddhists and Philosophical Daoists are, technically speaking, atheists, without a [personal] divinity. That's distinct from anti-theist, as the word is usually understood. Yet both Mahayana Buddhism and Religious Daoism can be called Polytheistic, at least at the level of the great majority of the flock.
b

[bradford_h]

I should probably add that the prayers and sacrifices in old China were made mostly to the ancestors, who were thought to have some sway over things. Of course the greatest ancestors were the likes of the Dynastic founders, recipients of the Tian Ming or Mandate of Heaven, and legendary characters such as Fuxi and Huangdi, the Yellow Emperor. And in this context Shang Di (superior/high divine/sovereign) may have been the notion of the ultimate ancestor or progenitor. Whether this was a Creator per se was likely not a matter of consensus. They may have been content to "let the mystery be."

[candid]

Brad, thanks very much. Will digest this and may have more questions.

[candid]

Brad, so in death Hun and Po go separate ways? Does Po have a consciousness even if it does not linger as a Gui? And does Hun return to Qi, or does it too maintain a separate identity or consciousness? If both the Hun and Po have individual identities, how do they exist together? Or do they?

Really appreciate your understanding of these things.

[bradford_h]

Hey Candid-
How the heck would I know? I'm just parroting what I've studied.
Probably beyond these basics opinions may have always varied widely.
But yes, Hun and Po are said to go separate ways, maybe like dharma and karma (respectively).
My favorite belief comes from Ibsen's Peer Gynt - you get a soul on a trial basis. If you're true to yourself in life you get to live again. If not, your soul gets melted back into the general soup out of which future souls are ladled.
I also like one attributed to Gurdjieff (maybe, facts need checking), when asked if man was born with an immortal soul. He replied 'Maybe, maybe not. But if not, that doesn't man you can't create one.'
b

[candid]

Brad, well if you don't know how the heck am I supposed to know? chuckles

Interesting ideas though. Thanks!

[val]

The 'impression' I got after the 'men in grey' started visiting my dreams was that of a 'layered' spiritual 'realm' something akin to what Brad describes. I can't help but suspect, though, that defining an earth bound layer of spirits was the ancients' most scientific explanation for natural phenomena such as floods and earthquakes.

Other than that I am, as Brad pointed out, content to "let the mystery be."

Love,

Val

[val]

Candid...

Sporting an IQ over 90, I have enough wherewithall to know I'm not one of the great scholars here. However, my experience with the 'men in grey' was profound enough to change me from a devout atheist to a believer in a creator, and I was left with some distinct 'impressions' in the process, so I thought I'd share them.

Besides... we all know I value the experiential over the intellectual education... *grin* and *wink*

Love again,

Val

[candid]

Val, having no clue of my own IQ, thanks for your answer! I still say they were in grey lab-coats though. *smirk*

My reason for asking is due to a comparative religion conversation I'm having with my brother.

Thanks again.

[bradford_h]

Hey Candid-
The biggest problem with comparative religion is generalizing. By the time we each get round to that face to face chat with our maker it almost never matters how our pretended religions phrase or construct things. But you can't sell a teaching as a custom fit deal to folks who want security.
I take it you all know about these two links
I think these are the same 20 questions. The quiz only takes a few minutes and rates how well you fit with a couple dozen belief systems.
\link {http://www.selectsmart.com/RELIGION/}
\link {http://www.beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html}
b

[gene]

Hi Candid

One of the major hidden contentions of the Tao Teh Ching is how to unite hun and po so that a human becomes an immortal. While I haven't experienced it, I believe this was also one of the major purposes of the initiation into the greater mysteries (as opposed to the lesser mysteries) in gnostic christianity. I also believe that the great pyramid was once a chi generator, and unifier of the souls that it had the purpose of creating immortality in mankind. I am beginning to get the feeling that the earlier ages of mankind were obsessed with this. Whitley Streiber had a guest on a few months ago that talked about this specifically as relating to some Egyptian texts that had been translated.

Terms like, the valley spirit in the Tao Teh Ching seem to be referring to the pituitary and/or pineal gland, but I am only beginning to get information on this, and it is not very complete yet. In some Hindu and Buddhist traditions it was supposed that the kundalini energy ran up the spine. In China however, and much of Buddhism, it was recognized that it formed a circle running up the back and down the front, and Taoist tradition was involved in trying to increase and purify that circulation of energy. As such they, and products of their religion or philosophy, such as tai chi and other martial arts were offshoots of their attempts toward immortality.

In Western art we see statues of Jesus and some disciples with a halo over their head. Later, I will try to get into the Taoist and Buddhist explanation of this. "As the lightning shineth from the East to the West, so shall the coming of the son of man be." For the outer mysteries, one meaning, for the inner, the lightning is the rising of a strong energy field into the pineal which creates a sudden flash of light...

Gene

[candid]

Hi Brad,

Thanks for the links.

I took one of the tests earlier and my highest score was Christian Science. Didn't make much sense to me at first but upon further thought, it actually makes sense to me now. C.S. reads the Bible symbolically and apply it practically. I guess the principle holds up for most any religious teaching, or conceptual contemplation of universal understanding.

I think the dividing line between religion and knowledge is between attainment and true hunger for understanding. One searches for personal significance while the other just wants to understand.

C

[bradford_h]

Hi Candid-
I know a lot of good people who score high here as both Christian Scientist (they put out a mighty fine newspaper) and Liberal Quaker.
Although I generally regard Judeo-Christian thought as juvenile, paranoid and extremely toxic, there are a few sects like this that command my respect, though sometimes simply by not being total shallow mindless bigoted hypocrites.
b

[candid]

Gene, very sorry. I completing missed your post! Will need a little time to process before responding to it.

[candid]

Gene, nothing to add or question but it is interesting reading. Thanks.

[willow]

>I am beginning to get the feeling that the earlier ages of mankind were obsessed with this.

Another way to look at it is that earlier ages took it as a given that we are not "like" gods, we *are* gods.

[gene]

Hi Willow

Yeap

Gene

[dij]

I love tests! thanks

i got a bit freaked out with a result though, 100% Mahayana Buddhism - since I am not a practicing 'anything' and I had no idea what Mahayana Buddhism was, but when I read what it means, it was ok, since Zen is part of it, and i dig Zen. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/biggrin.gif
I could also be a Neo Pagan aparently or Unitarian Universalist. What a hoot.

I think the problem with human race is that it's seen as all one species/genus, and I don't reckon that's true. We are all expected to be able to live harmoniously following whatever is the fashion of the day -which, when you think about it, is about as un-natural as living can get.
just my £0.02