What kind of I Ching faith?

[em ching]

Hi,

Just wondering how you all consider the working of the I Ching. Do you accept that it is a book of great wisdom, which can help and pertain to your question or situation no matter what reading you get, or that you are communicating with a higher knowledge (either within yourself or 'out there')? Or do you just accept that it works for you, without so much having a conviction as to why or how, or a mystical feeling?

I know this is an age old issue, but I can't help but feel maybe it is all chance, but at the same time, I feel that it can't be. I seem to easily forget when I have been blown away by accuracy when I have these moments of self-, and Yi, doubt...

I asked - Can I trust you to guide me?
19.5 > 60

(I asked this after having asked whether I should buy a camera - I received 33.1,4,6 > 63, which I was initially disgruntled with as it seemed like the best buy considering my needs... I asked again 'Can you elaborate?' - 29.1 > 60). Again I felt that the Yi was warning me against buying it, which was against my own judgement (doesn't usually happen). Because this was an instance where the Yi would not only be guiding my thoughts, but my actions, it prompted me to question what I was doing more, and so I asked the above.

I then considered that 33 > 63 might be saying don't probe a done deal? This camera was able to meet my needs and so a balanced issue (ie all in the correct place) and so retreat from upsetting the balance by probing? And then 29 > 60 I felt could be saying limit my questioning on this, as I already know what to do? Also hex 60 could be relating to the Yi's limited ability to advise on technological purchases :)

19.5 did seem to answer my Q directly too:
Hulkscrammer: 'Don't interfere or have doubts about the abilities of those helping you'.
Adcock: 'More knowledgable people can help you make the wisest choice'

So the Yi could have been responding by saying seek guidance from someone who knows about cameras as I'm limited in this area, or plainly - don't doubt me!
(BTW I did buy the camera and all is well with it so far)

A few days later I had the same doubt and asked,
Can you give me a sign that this isn't all just chance?
(I felt - similar to Bostonian in the 'Exploring Divination' thread - that I wasn't really talking to my own, or (more likely given my cluelessnes sometimes), an external greater spirit, but to inanimate objects (three coins) and a well-written book that covers all bases)...

31.3 > 45

Wilhelm: '...This strong line (me perhaps?) could easily master itself and not yield to every stimulus/influence'... 'little should he yield immediately to every whim of those in whose service he stands'

lol.. perhaps this is the Yi saying, I won't answer this question, and indulge your impetuosity? Or that I shouldn't allow myself to be so easily influenced - even by the Yi!?

Lise: Do not float along with moods or convictions. The other follows yours – you follow his ... What you do not test is contagious, especially if a great number of people go along.

Conversely reading Lise's interpretation it seems to say, form your own enquiry? Decide for yourself? Empirically? (yuck) But again, this is me accepting that the Yi is an autonomous (benevolent) being directly answering my Q? I feel that it is, myself, and I'm sure most do here, but many out there (ie sceptics) do not. And sometimse I hear their arguments...Could I think of another line that could equally fit my Q? Well.. I can think of a few romantic ones, or violent ones, that wouldn't... but then, if I had received them, maybe they too would have helped me in considering the issue in some way?

What do you think of these readings?
What are your assumptions about how it works? Just briefly even; your instictive rationalization or belief, in using the I Ching to guide and explain specific, personal scenarios?

Thanks,

Em :bows::rolleyes:

[bostonian]

I then considered that 33 > 63 might be saying don't probe a done deal? This camera was able to meet my needs and so a balanced issue (ie all in the correct place) and so retreat from upsetting the balance by probing? And then 29 > 60 I felt could be saying limit my questioning on this, as I already know what to do? Also hex 60 could be relating to the Yi's limited ability to advise on technological purchases

I agree with your interpretation above except the last sentence (that the I Ching has limited ability to give advice on technical things). Why do you think technical things would stump it?

I also think you got relevant responses to your request for a sign. A lot better than i got when I tried that.

As to how it works. That has to do with the metaphysical belief that one has. To oversimplify my belief system: the answer comes from the unconscious mind that we all share. There are many ways of tapping into that unconscious. The i Ching is one of those ways. But I also think it's OK to think of the oracle as a separate being if that makes it easier to visualize the process.

[bamboo]

I agree with Bostonian, your answers from the Yi regarding its validity in your life were pretty good ones.
I certainly dont think the I Ching is limited by technical issue questions...I use it a lot for questions of purchase like that. Don't be upset....but if I had gotten those answers you did, I do not think I would have bought the camera! I think I would have interpreted the 33 to 63 as saying it was a purchase I ought to rethink, sort of like " Do you really need this now?"

I dont think it is a bad thing that you bought the camera...but I do think the response was telling you to hold back....maybe for a better deal down the road? who knows? but life adapts to the choices we make ultimately and I never take a response as absolutely dire.

For me, the yi is just a tool for access to a wider realm of knowledge than my conscious thinking mind, my own intellect. For me it is also important to use it with a light touch...if i try to analyze the answers too rigorously, it loses its LIGHT. If you read the cover of a book called Conversations With God, I think it says something like

"Messages are everywhere...in the next song you hear, the next snippet of conversation you hear, the next book you read...." and I tend to think that is very true. If you stop and try to analyze all of those for their deep significance, the flow gets lost and our intellect overrides the gentle messages of the moment. BUt if we just flow along with the current, guidance comes as we need it. The Yi is like that, it is a flowing thing, speaking in a language our heart comes to understand, not necessarily our intellect.

[meng]

Em,

As an observer, it looks to me as though you're discerning lots of things in Yi for yourself, really clearly. You're breaking down particulars (60), and overseeing them (19). That leads me to perceive that Yi is saying that you are it. Maybe the question should be, who is this who is typing or reading this?

[meng]

'The Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou at my right hand, till I make thine adversaries thy footstool?' Mat 22.44

Isn't that, more or less, what the Yi does, teach us to make our inner adversaries our servants?

That's how I see it.

[jesed]

'When you have doubts about any great matter, consult with your own mind; consult with your high ministers and officers; consult with the common people; consult the tortoise-shell and divining stalks. If you, the shell, the stalks, the ministers and officers, and the common people, all agree about a course, this is what is called a great concord, and the result will be the welfare of your person and good fortune to your descendants. If you, the shell, and the stalks agree, while the ministers, and officers, and the common people oppose, the result will be fortunate. If the ministers and officers, with the shell and stalks, agree, while you and the common people oppose, the result will be fortunate. If the common people, the shell, and the stalks agree, while you, with the ministers and officers, oppose, the result will be fortunate. If you and the shell agree. while the stalks, with the ministers and officers, and the common people, oppose, internal operations will be fortunate, and external undertakings unlucky. When the shell and stalks are both opposed to the views of men, there will be good fortune in being still, and active operations will be unlucky.'
(The Grand Plan)

So much to learn from this ancient text. Just in case it could be useful

[em ching]

For me, the yi is just a tool for access to a wider realm of knowledge than my conscious thinking mind, my own intellect. For me it is also important to use it with a light touch...if i try to analyze the answers too rigorously, it loses its LIGHT. If you read the cover of a book called Conversations With God, I think it says something like

"Messages are everywhere...in the next song you hear, the next snippet of conversation you hear, the next book you read...." and I tend to think that is very true. If you stop and try to analyze all of those for their deep significance, the flow gets lost and our intellect overrides the gentle messages of the moment. BUt if we just flow along with the current, guidance comes as we need it. The Yi is like that, it is a flowing thing, speaking in a language our heart comes to understand, not necessarily our intellect.

Hi,

I think it's just that I've been using the Yi for so long that I'm starting to memorize each hex - and even though I'm not bored by the text (Wilhem especially) - still a lot of wisdom in there that I'm trying (maybe not hard enough) to put into practice, and beautiful imagery and ideas. But I think I'm starting to feel sceptical of myself - that I would be able to benefit from any of the lines... when I have had answers that I intially frowned at (not often though), looking deeper I have been able to find help ie. maybe I'm not allowing myself to consider this aspect of using the I ching - that it can all be relevant. But as bamboo says, over-analyze and you lose...

I suppose the reason I thought the Yi couldn't help me with technical things, was perhaps that my unconscious didn't know either, so how could it! But that might be me under-estimating my camera knowledge. Actually looking back I could have held back from buying it, but what's done is done. Not life threatening! And I like what you said about life adapting to our decisions anyway... Without mistakes there'd be no learning. But it's good to avoid the big ones...

And the fact is - even though I'm going through this phase of cynicism - it still helps me, or at least appeases me to a degree. Though I am trying to catch it out recently, test it - which I feel isn't possible, or positive... or nice considering how it has helped my development...

I asked Are you a separate entity from myself?
39.1,6 > 37
This seems to illustrate the situation of the querent!

39.1 > When one encounters an obstruction, the important thing is to reflect on how best to deal with it. When threatened with danger, one should not strive blindly to go ahead, for this only leads to complications. The correct thing is, on the contrary, to retreat for the time being, not in order to give up the struggle but to await the right moment for action.
(the I ching helps you deal with obstructions)

39.6 > This refers to a man who has already left the world and its tumult behind him. When the time of obstructions arrives, it might seem that the simplest thing for him to do would be to turn his back upon the world and take refuge in the beyond. But this road is barred to him. He must not seek his own salvation and abandon the world to its adversity. Duty calls him back once more into the turmoil of life. Precisely because of his experience and inner freedom, he is able to create something both great and complete that brings good fortune. And it is favorable to see the great man in alliance with whom one can achieve the work of rescue.

(I spooked myself out with this line! Imagining an old Chinese sage who had died, but whose ghost lives on in the I Ching to help us out in our tumultuous human lives :rofl:)

37 > The I ching is part of the family of man? We should consider it a separate entity that supports us? Like a mother, brother... etc.

This helped me. I tried to think of a reading that wouldn't have answered so profoundly or been relevant and I can... I think :o

I also asked Why do humans struggle so much with their emotions? Needs? Ego?

16.1,6 > 21
16.1 > Enthusiasm should never be an egotistic emotion; it is justified only when it is a general feeling that unites one with others.
16.6 > It is a bad thing for a man to let himself be deluded by enthusiasm. But if this delusion has run its course, and he is still capable of changing, then he is freed of error. A sober awakening from false enthusiasm is quite possible and very favorable.
( what we think we want is a delusion? Yet it governs our emotions :rolleyes:)
21 > Our issues are an obstacle to bite through
(easier said than done, but many people have said as you grow older (flow into your true forms conducive to your own nature's happiness (a la hex 1!) you learn to accept better...)
Seems to be suggesting the ego is our obstacle! (makes sense)

Maybe I've been using it too much recently. Maybe I should try giving it a day off :)
Dependancy of course ain't good.... maybe a case of over-kill is numbing me to the signs I once felt in tune with... Or my readings aren't enough for me at the moment... My conviction is just starting to wane at the moment, the more familiar I become with it. The more I look back at past readings. Past beliefs that didn't materialise...

[em ching]

'The Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou at my right hand, till I make thine adversaries thy footstool?' Mat 22.44

Isn't that, more or less, what the Yi does, teach us to make our inner adversaries our servants?

That's how I see it.

As in - to make our negativity, insecurity - work for us? The Yi helps us reign them in? Or allow them to breathe but not act on them, and to remember that everything is transitory? One of the best things is that the I Ching reminds you to be mindful of change..

Jesed thanks for the quote. Maybe the I ching is working to help us adapt to the world! And not assume that we can control it because we have a consciousness... and a pesky ego! Where did that come from... but without it, would there be no art? No entertainment? Love? Ups and downs? Lol...

:rant::hug::rofl::eek::confused::cool::hug::duh:

[em ching]

Ok,

Maybe the above sounds a little cold and incoherent.
Fact is I still use it and it still helps me.
I don't know what happens the longer you use it... I suppose you're bound to have these moments.. the relationship changes. But I think there are many old-timers here :) So I don't think many outgrow it? Or maybe they do in terms of volume of usage, but keep it near their heart?

[meng]

As in - to make our negativity, insecurity - work for us? The Yi helps us reign them in? Or allow them to breathe but not act on them, and to remember that everything is transitory? One of the best things is that the I Ching reminds you to be mindful of change..


Yes, reign them in, play them out, in rhythm. Insecurity can work creatively, within a limit. So can negativity. I'm wary of anyone who has one facial expression, even if it's a smile. Allowing them to breathe is an excellent metaphor; and, yes, everything is transitory, and the Yi is a reminder of that, for sure. Good points, Em.

[pantherpanther]

Quote:
Originally Posted by em ching
As in - to make our negativity, insecurity - work for us? The Yi helps us reign them in? Or allow them to breathe but not act on them, and to remember that everything is transitory? One of the best things is that the I Ching reminds you to be mindful of change..


Yes, reign them in, play them out, in rhythm. Insecurity can work creatively, within a limit. So can negativity. I'm wary of anyone who has one facial expression, even if it's a smile. Allowing them to breathe is an excellent metaphor; and, yes, everything is transitory, and the Yi is a reminder of that, for sure. Good points, Em.

Without a body and mind how could we live and learn? They are generally tools of the ego and resist change and learning because of fear of the unknown and the new: the ego needs to feel it is "in control" and happy, that it knows ,that success, love and so on are its "right." The ego is not "negative," without it we couldn't live. It is what we are to a large extent and have to work with and train to obey and serve responsibly.

[steve]

I liked Carl Jung's theorys that its somewhere in the sub-concious and possibly yes connected to God
We know very little of the mind I think meaning that there is allot more to know

http://ezinearticles.com/?What-Is-The-I-Ching-And-What-Did-Carl-Jung-See-In-It?&id=345946

[pantherpanther]

I liked Carl Jung's theorys that its somewhere in the sub-concious and possibly yes connected to God
We know very little of the mind I think meaning that there is allot more to know

http://ezinearticles.com/?What-Is-The-I-Ching-And-What-Did-Carl-Jung-See-In-It?&id=345946

The article is supposed to be about Jung.

"...the answers we get from the I Ching are those we would eventually arrive at if we could spend enough time in reflection or meditation. We often return from a vacation with new insights about our lives and a refreshed perspective on what matters. Now you can access that same inner clarity and sense of perspective without spending weeks in retreat; this is ideal in our fast-paced society. Since the I Ching magnifies our own inner truth, each reading is a little like a computer sprintout from the soul."

I don't agree with many of Jung's ideas, but he didn`t say anything like this.

[steve]

Hey there

I know it wasnst the best article in the world however i am just stating that my personal belief is that the Yi is working though our sub-consious somehow, I have no Idea how on that I do agree with Jung

But yea the article was pretty bad
agreed

Steve

[meng]

"...each reading is a little like a computer printout from the soul."

I like that.

[pantherpanther]

Steve,
Jung's exploration of the psychic content of the subconscious through his deep experience and study of dreams and centuries of man's symbols (as the I Ching) led him to develop a personal system of ideas that are psychological. The traditional view of
teachings such as the I Ching includes a more complete system, containing many levels of consciousness that Jung does not recognize. His archetypes are partial and subjective, for example. His system is a personal system . The ancient teachings cover a wider range. The I Ching for example is like a map and system representing universal laws that work on many levels. It can be a catalyst for the prepared and disciplined mind (like the " mind-body" for Asians) to relate to and study the working of universal laws on mundane and invisible levels. Jung never learned the disciplines to do that. One might say he followed a mystic path, although he expressed his thought openly in terms of Western science. He remarked late in life he was "not a Jungian" because of how many applied his ideas. But a number of his close pupils as Von Frantz developed his ideas in deeper and less subjective ways than he had, that is nearer to the traditional knowledge.

[steve]

Yea to be honest that actually gave me goose bumps when I read it:)

[steve]

Yes Panther

I see your point he did only touch the surface and is know way someone you should learn the I Ching from. I was introduced to the I ching through reading Jung 20 odd years ago but I have to admit I used to use other translations from a guy called Stephen Skinner as I was maybe to young to understand the book of changes
I was experimenting with allot of differnt things like tarot , geomancy but the I ching was always so amazed at the answers I got even at the limited knowledge I had back then. It appeared so accurate in that it was telling me about the now and not preditictions . I think the yi can also make predictions but more like the events in Hex 10 more like the reap what you sow type predictions or the footsteps .


When I used the Tarot and other types of techniques I used to feel very drained where with the Yi Ching i feel like I am growing spiritualy so i have stopped using the others.
The Yi is something you could study your entire life and learn something everyday, just like life itself.
The mind I guess the whole human body they are making all soughts of crazy discoverys all the time
I am still very interested in the subconcious I think we have no way even have got anywhere near what this part of our minds are capable of.
The Yi really has been such a guide to me especially the last few months and how its been literally helping me piece together the jumbled puzzles of my life better than any therapy I have ever encountered but thats me .

Cheers
Steve

[pantherpanther]

steve: "...each reading is a little like a computer printout from the soul."

I like that.

The notion that we have more than the wish for "a soul" can be an obstacle to making one, 'as long as it takes' - and we don't know long.

You saw the Buddha? Kill the Buddha!

A hexagram isn't about "me." It just represents how things are. How can I relate "me" to what it says about life at this time and place as I am ? Many efforts over time, small efforts, are a proven way. Divination may be qute valid, yet it is an aspect of a complete practice.
The Buddha and Christ included it.

Not a joke, this is a trend that indicates how many are attracted to a "virtual reality," denying their possibility of making a soul:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/6963383/Foxy-Roxxxy-worlds-first-sex-robot-can-talk-about-football.html

[meng]

The notion that we have more than the wish for "a soul" can be an obstacle to making one, 'as long as it takes' - and we don't know long.



And you know this how? Is that your notion?

The word "notion" is already overused on this forum to undermine and discredit any ideas which someone doesn't agree with or can't understand. Please don't you start overusing it too. There are worthwhile ideas besides your own.

[meng]

A hexagram isn't about "me."
You're certain about this too?

What percentage of questions, asked of the Yi, would you say are (generally or specifically) about "me"?

[pantherpanther]

Yes Panther

I see your point he did only touch the surface and is know way someone you should learn the I Ching from. I was introduced to the I ching through reading Jung 20 odd years ago but I have to admit I used to use other translations from a guy called Stephen Skinner as I was maybe to young to understand the book of changes
I was experimenting with allot of differnt things like tarot , geomancy but the I ching was always so amazed at the answers I got even at the limited knowledge I had back then. It appeared so accurate in that it was telling me about the now and not preditictions . I think the yi can also make predictions but more like the events in Hex 10 more like the reap what you sow type predictions or the footsteps .


When I used the Tarot and other types of techniques I used to feel very drained where with the Yi Ching i feel like I am growing spiritualy so i have stopped using the others.
The Yi is something you could study your entire life and learn something everyday, just like life itself.
The mind I guess the whole human body they are making all soughts of crazy discoverys all the time
I am still very interested in the subconcious I think we have no way even have got anywhere near what this part of our minds are capable of.
The Yi really has been such a guide to me especially the last few months and how its been literally helping me piece together the jumbled puzzles of my life better than any therapy I have ever encountered but thats me .

Cheers
Steve
Steve,
I can relate to your work with the I Ching and other systems. They all contain some truth - the complete ones. The I Ching resonates best with you it seems and how you are working with it is useful , that is, it supports your search and helps in having verifiable experiences for yourself. The I Ching can be approached in many ways, and certainly the way many Orientals do is very different from many Westerners' ways and has been so for centuries. Jung's approach was a more recent Western one that related his clinical psychological concepts to it, which many have interpreted in different ways, in therapeutic practice and literature and the personal growth movement.

[pantherpanther]

Quote:
Originally Posted by pantherpanther
The notion that we have more than the wish for "a soul" can be an obstacle to making one, 'as long as it takes' - and we don't know long.


And you know this how? Is that your notion?

The word "notion" is already overused on this forum to undermine and discredit any ideas which someone doesn't agree with or can't understand. Please don't you start overusing it too. There are worthwhile ideas besides your own.


You're certain about this too?

What percentage of questions, asked of the Yi, would you say are (generally or specifically) about "me"?

I don't think I have said anything in any way original and I could merely quote from many teachings and not use any of my own words. The Philokalia is very precise about "the soul" as I have written of it. I will consider how I use the word "notion." I hadn't realized it conveyed a sense of "diminishing" others "wisdom " to some here. It is a neutral word to me.

When I wrote "me" I thought it would convey "Moi," that is ,considering a hexagram with the attitude that my little petty drama is on the same scale anytime or anywhere in
what it contains - like attending a Mass or visiting a sacred place or attending a gathering of serious people while filled with a silly "notion" of my importance, the Emperor with no clothes delusion.

[meng]

Well, ok, that's your view.

I think efforts to diminish "me" only winds up making "me" more important to "me" than just being "me".

[meng]

The Birth of Buddha:

http://images.exoticindiaart.com/sculptures/worlds_above_and_worlds_below_theres_no_one_like_z u61.jpg

The Zen master Daisetz Suzuki once narrated an interesting story. A young student said to his master, "Am I in possession of Buddha consciousness?" The master said, "No." The student said, "Well, I 've been told that all things are in possession of Buddha consciousness. The rocks, the trees, the butterflies, the birds, the animals, all beings." The master said, "You are correct. All things are in possession of Buddha consciousness. The rocks, the trees, the butterflies, the bees, the birds, the animals, all beings-but not you." "Not me? Why not?" "Because you are asking this question."

According to legend, Buddha was born from the right side of his mother. Immediately upon his birth, he stood up and took seven steps, and wherever his feet touched the earth lotuses sprang up. Raising his hand he said: "Worlds above, worlds below, there's no one in the world like me."

Finally, Suzuki elaborated. "They tell me that when a baby is born, it cries. What does the baby say when it cries? The baby says 'Worlds above, worlds below, there's no one in the world like me!' All babies are Buddha babies."

[pantherpanther]

Well, ok, that's your view.

I think efforts to diminish "me" only winds up making "me" more important to "me" than just being "me".

I think it is like separating the three chaotic functions of thinking, feeling and sensation and allowing them to relate in a natural, ordered way that can
conserve energy to be worked with by the attention. When the attention is totally taken by the automatism of the functions, there is no self- awareness (and no space for the Buddha.)

[meng]

Further, as I see it, self-conscious introversion is more of an ego trip than someone who is comfortable with their extroversion. Inhibition, which is based in weakness, is not to be confused with modesty, which is based in strength.

[em ching]

[QUOTE=pantherpanther;104432]Steve,
I can relate to your work with the I Ching and other systems. They all contain some truth - the complete ones. The I Ching resonates best with you it seems and how you are working with it is useful , that is, it supports your search and helps in having verifiable experiences for yourself. [QUOTE]

That's true - when I try to think deeply about an emotional problem it's like there's a barrier there - but as mentioned earlier if I mediated on my problem I might break through the barrier, but at these moments I'm often afraid of the truth - so I turn to the I ching.

Meng - what prompted you to talk of extroversion and introversion? Hit a nerve because sometimes I've felt my shyness is more cowardliness - which I'm trying to work on (cowardliness only in the sense of not feeling confident enough in myself, to be myself, and thus being inhibited against my will), but I like what you say about modesty being a strength.

The reason why I've been having doubts recently could be because I've been using it exessively about an issue. I asked the I ching :

Am I getting carried away with my I ching usage at present?
34.3 > 54

Dispelled some doubts! 34 being about excessive power being forced in the wrong direction, and 54 about not being able to control the situation, so having to accept it...
So when I ask numerous Q's (differently phrased but essentially the same) I'm like a goat butting into a hedge and getting more and more entangled, trying to force something out of my control, and so getting more entangled, frustrated, confused, and in a maze... when the effort is futile because I cannot manipulate reality as I want...

:bows:

[meng]

Meng - what prompted you to talk of extroversion and introversion? Hit a nerve because sometimes I've felt my shyness is more cowardliness - which I'm trying to work on (cowardliness only in the sense of not feeling confident enough in myself, to be myself, and thus being inhibited against my will), but I like what you say about modesty being a strength.


I'm glad you took it how I meant it, and not to be hard on shy people. I used to perform, and overcoming inhibition wasn't easy. There's the whole ego/counter-ego ping pong going on. Some of the most overtly egotistical people are also the most 'spiritual'. That can work in different ways. It's not one size fits all. If we look at our modern day icons, a lot of them are brash, colorful, egoists. But if they know that's the part they are playing, and are not themselves fooled by it, then they are true to their art and their ding.

[pantherpanther]

Originally Posted by meng
.....

I think efforts to diminish "me" only winds up making "me" more important to "me" than just being "me". >>>>>

I think it is like separating the three chaotic functions of thinking, feeling and sensation and allowing them to relate in a natural, ordered way that can
conserve energy to be worked with by the attention. When the attention is totally taken by the automatism of the functions, there is no self- awareness (and no space for the Buddha.)

Further, as I see it, self-conscious introversion is more of an ego trip than someone who is comfortable with their extroversion. Inhibition, which is based in weakness, is not to be confused with modesty, which is based in strength.
Introversion and extroversion seem part of the ordinary identification with the automatism, which blocks the awareness of one's Buddha baby who says 'Worlds above, worlds below, there's no one in the world like me!' The Buddhist method of separating from the "emotionality" (that is,the ordinary "waking state" of being taken by the reactive thoughts, feeling, sensations of the automatism) is precisely what I described. William Segal, who was a close friend of Suzuki and worked with Zen masters in Japan was very powerful in leading this practice in small groups and large of any background.
“We can’t say why we search, except that there seems to be an innate need, in each human being, to know who one is, what we’re here for, how to live more poetically.” — William Segal, in the film by Ken Burns, “Seeing, Searching, and Being”

[meng]

Introversion and extroversion seem part of the ordinary identification with the automatism, which blocks the awareness of one's Buddha baby

Naw. Being an introvert or extrovert has nothing to do with a person's awareness, either can be aware or unaware, in or not in Buddha baby.

Automatism is too general of a word to be of much use here, other than to further cloud the water. It joins other vast and meaningless words, like some dark opposing side of "spiritual" and "wisdom". Behind every wise man is a dumb ass.

[meng]

"I give the name of symptomatic acts to those acts which people perform, as we say, automatically, unconsciously, without attending to them, or as if in a moment of distraction" (p. 76). Then, in the metapsychological texts, the word is used in three limited senses: a) the regulation of (unconscious) automatic processes by the pleasure principle (Beyond the Pleasure Principle, 1920g); b) so-called "automatic" anxiety when it is a question of the origin or the "automatic" appearance of anxiety (Inhibitions, Symptoms, and Anxiety, 1926d); and occasionally, c) the process of repression (1926d). - Freud

The noun Automatismus, "automatism," is also very rarely found in Freud's works. When Freud refers to it in Inhibition, Symptoms, and Anxiety in relation to the process of repression, he prefers the term "compulsion to repeat": "The new impulse will run its course under an automatic influence—or, as I should prefer to say, under the influence of the compulsion to repeat. It will follow the same path as the earlier repressed impulse, as if the danger-situation that had been overcome still existed" (p. 153). In the New Introductory Lectures (1933a [1932]), the term is directly connected to the principle of pleasure-unpleasure, in a sense essentially based on the (automatic) mode of regulation of unconscious processes, but that merges with anxiety and repression.

The term was used more frequently by Jacques Lacan, specifically starting in the fifties, when, under the influence of cybernetics, the question of automatons was on his mind. And so pure automatism became an essentially psychotic phenomenon.

This isn't the same as introvert/extrovert.

[meng]

However, automatism (the original meaning for it) can play a role in the kind of debilitating inhibition I referred to earlier to Em. But clearly, there's a difference from this habitual ritualism of automatism and a naturally introverted personality.

It's not uncommon either for outrageously outgoing performers to live introverted private lives. So I don't mean to overplay the intro/outro, I was originally just responding to Em's question about it.

[lloyd]

Rutt makes sense on Jung on page 56 of his book Zhouyi: " ... the psychological element recognized by Jung was involved in the process from early times".
In other words, we may do well without Jung and/or Wilhelm. Rutt's commentary on Jung's I Ching consults (in the introduction to the Wilhelm edition) indicates the extremely ego-centric thought patterns of Jung; which run through all of his work.
Thomas Cleary made very interesting comments on Jungian perceptions of eastern ways, in the footnotes to his translation of "The Secret of the Golden Flower".

[pantherpanther]

Naw. Being an introvert or extrovert has nothing to do with a person's awareness, either can be aware or unaware, in or not in Buddha baby.

Automatism is too general of a word to be of much use here, other than to further cloud the water. It joins other vast and meaningless words, like some dark opposing side of "spiritual" and "wisdom". Behind every wise man is a dumb ass.

I defined the term automatism, and how it worked : the three organic functions of the human being (thinking, feeling,sensation) . There have been many other words used: "the body," "the natural man" ( which the Bible refers to as "dust"), "the vehicle," etc. The practice I described is about becoming aware, "waking up."
It is something one does or doesn't work at and experience. There are proven methods.

Automatism is just a word. How about "machine"? The ordinary "waking state" is one in which there is no consciousness of the mechanical reactions of the three functions. One can live their whole life without consciousness, identified with the acquired reactions of their functions to shocks from outside. And that is pretty much how the general life of humanity is, which we all have to learn to live with from birth to death.
We don't have to have to be the puppet of our reactions to outside shocks. We may be highly trained and educated, yet still live as a machine, mechanically.

[meng]

Automatism is just a word.

With a very specific meaning, which (am I being redundant?) you continue to misuse, which is most common. Just as the other words I've sighted, i.e. spiritual and wisdom. How about holy? Sanctified? Yes, just words as they're used commonly.

[meng]

The ordinary "waking state" is one in which there is no consciousness of the mechanical reactions of the three functions. One can live their whole life without consciousness, identified with the acquired reactions of their functions to shocks from outside. And that is pretty much how the general life of humanity is, which we all have to learn to live with from birth to death.
We don't have to have to be the puppet of our reactions to outside shocks. We may be highly trained and educated, yet still live as a machine, mechanically.

I don't know what waking state you're talking about, or why you think only a certain spiritual elite can gain enough enlightenment to be conscious of being conscious. I think you must be underestimating an awful lot of people. "It doesn't take a weatherman to know which way the wind blows."

[pantherpanther]

With a very specific meaning, which (am I being redundant?) you continue to misuse, which is most common. Just as the other words I've sighted, i.e. spiritual and wisdom. How about holy? Sanctified? Yes, just words as they're used commonly.

My comments addressed yours on Suzuki, Zen and the Buddha , yes? All I said about introversion and extroversion was that they "seem part of the ordinary identification with the automatism, which blocks the awareness of one's Buddha baby." I was suggesting they are aspects of different personality types as described by different psychologists. In short, the Zen practice of Suzuki is for any type - introverted, extraverted, whatever.

I offered you other terms for the automatism : the machine, the body, the natural man, the vehicle. Automatism has common definitions,although there are specialized meanings found in various fields. Perhaps "the machine" is the most easily understood, and least traditional, synonym for what I meant by the automatism.

Some common definitions for automatism :
noun.[From Latin automaton]
The state or quality of being automatic.
Automatic mechanical action.
Philosophy. The theory that the body is a machine whose functions are accompanied but not controlled by consciousness.
Physiology.
The involuntary functioning of an organ or other body structure that is not under conscious control, such as the beating of the heart or the dilation of the pupil of the eye.
The reflexive action of a body part.
Psychology. Mechanical, seemingly aimless behavior characteristic of various mental disorders.
Law .An act done by a person who is not conscious of what he is doing.

[pantherpanther]

I don't know what waking state you're talking about, or why you think only a certain spiritual elite can gain enough enlightenment to be conscious of being conscious. I think you must be underestimating an awful lot of people. "It doesn't take a weatherman to know which way the wind blows."

It was you who introduced the teaching of Suzuki. Waking state is recognized in many traditions as having the qualities I mentioned, and Suzuki defined it as I did. What is this nonsense about elitism? The teaching is available for all, isn't it? Every individual is different. What is learned is up to each.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________

THE SENSE OF ZEN
D .T. Suzuki

We can say that Zen liberates all the energies properly and naturally stored in each of us, which are in ordinary circumstances cramped and distorted so that they find no adequate channel for activity.

This body of ours is something like an electric battery in which a mysterious power latently lies. When this power is not properly brought into operation, it either grows mouldy and withers away or is warped and expresses itself abnormally. It is the object of Zen, therefore, to save us from going crazy or being crippled. This is what I mean by freedom, giving free play to all the creative and benevolent impulses inherently lying in our hearts. Generally, we are blind to this fact, that we are in possession of all the necessary faculties that will make us happy and loving towards one another. All the struggles that we see around us come from this ignorance. Zen, therefore, wants us to open a "third eye," as Buddhists call it, to the hitherto undreamed-of region shut away from us through our own ignorance. When the cloud of ignorance disappears, the infinity of the heavens is manifested, where we see for the first time into the nature of our own being. We now know the signification of life, we know that it is not blind striving, nor is it a mere display of brutal forces, but that while we know not definitely what the ultimate purport of life is, there is something in it that makes us feel infinitely blessed in the living of it and remain quite contented with it in all its evolution, without raising questions or entertaining pessimistic doubts.

[pantherpanther]

“Knowledge can be acquired by a suitable and complete study, no matter what the starting point is. Only one must know how to ‘learn.’ What is nearest to us is man; and you are the nearest of all men to yourself. Begin with the study of yourself; remember the saying ‘Know thyself.’” -- G.I. Gurdjieff

[em ching]

This body of ours is something like an electric battery in which a mysterious power latently lies. When this power is not properly brought into operation, it either grows mouldy and withers away or is warped and expresses itself abnormally. It is the object of Zen, therefore, to save us from going crazy or being crippled. This is what I mean by freedom, giving free play to all the creative and benevolent impulses inherently lying in our hearts. Generally, we are blind to this fact, that we are in possession of all the necessary faculties that will make us happy and loving towards one another. All the struggles that we see around us come from this ignorance. Zen, therefore, wants us to open a "third eye," as Buddhists call it, to the hitherto undreamed-of region shut away from us through our own ignorance. When the cloud of ignorance disappears, the infinity of the heavens is manifested, where we see for the first time into the nature of our own being. We now know the signification of life, we know that it is not blind striving, nor is it a mere display of brutal forces, but that while we know not definitely what the ultimate purport of life is, there is something in it that makes us feel infinitely blessed in the living of it and remain quite contented with it in all its evolution, without raising questions or entertaining pessimistic doubts.

That's brilliant - made me laugh too, with some relief.
I have a problem with self-censorship, over-analyzing, worrying too much what people think etc.
Last night I asked the I Ching to comment on how to find a sense of Freedom of self-expression and lose the self-censorship:

Hex 40
Wow blown away by that. Liberation!
What I'm after :rolleyes:

Wilhelm... 'A time of deliverance from a burdensome pressure has a liberating and stimulating effect on life... a thunderstorm clears the air... However when failings come to light he does not dwell on them; he simply passes over mistakes, the unintentional transgressions, just as thunder dies away... water washes everything clean'.

:):bows: