How a transcendent social structure might function

[demitramn]

Transcendence: Personal & Social Evolution
by Gregory Ellison

click here for complete article (http://consciousevolution.com/metamorphosis/0408/transcend0408.ht)

...Global institutions can only express the ?higher? aspects of Aquarian energy when they are structured in a way that serves all of humanity, and that is the part that is difficult for us to envision. In our experience, societies have always been structured in such a way as to give some people power and control over others. That is the only model of society we have. Therefore, when we think about how a new-age world government might be structured, we must think in terms of who will be in control. Will it be ?the people?? That is the answer given in Communism and Democracy. Will it be ?those best fit to lead?? That is the answer given in Nazism and Monarchy. Will it be ?the experts?? That is the answer given in modern corporatism and emerging pan-national entities like the European Union.

The problem is that power corrupts, and as long as there is power to be wielded, that power will eventually fall into the hands of the corrupt, no matter how benevolent and idealistic the original planners and organizers may be. What is needed is an entirely new form of social organization in which there is little power ?wielded? by anyone ? a form of organization that is focused on facilitating cooperation rather than on enforcing behavior.

Obviously the personal and social transformations are interdependent. No social structure can facilitate cooperation if the individuals in the society do not value cooperation above personal aggrandizement. But even given a world in which the majority of individuals have attained such a level, a social structure built around prescribing and controlling behavior will not mirror that transcendence.

Global Transcendence
While no one, to my knowledge, has devised a comprehensive model of how such a transcendent world government or social structure might function, there are some intriguing clues in the emerging holistic sciences. Kevin Kelly, the executive editor of Wired magazine, has written a fascinating book, Out of Control, in which he argues that a massive decentralization of control in emergent holistic systems is not only an effective form of organization, but may be the only workable form of organization for extremely complex systems.

The book is pretty technical and heavy reading, but Kelly opens it with a simple example that intuitively conveys the essence of what he is talking about. He recounts a presentation given at a recent computer convention, where 5,000 attendees were given ?paddles,? each with a green side and a red side. A video camera feeding into a computer scanned the audience to determine the colors being held up, and a giant TV screen was set up for a game of electronic ping-pong. Split into two opposing teams, the audience was told that displaying the red side of their paddles would move the ping-pong paddle up, while showing the green side would move the paddle down. The net speed and motion of each side?s paddles was determined by the combination of all 2,500 paddles on that side. If half of the team showed red and the other half green, the ?team? paddle would stand still. The more red showing, the faster it would move upward, and the more green showing, the faster it would move downward. As Kelly describes the experience:

<BLOCKQUOTE>The audience roars in delight. Without a moment?s hesitation, 5,000 people are playing a reasonably good game of Pong. Each move of the paddle is the average of several thousand players? intentions. The sensation is unnerving. One is definitely aware of another intelligence online: it?s this hollering mob.

The group mind plays Pong so well that Carpenter decides to up the ante. Without warning the ball bounces faster. The participants squeal in unison. In a second or two, the mob has adjusted to the quicker pace and is playing better than before. Carpenter speeds up the game further; the mob learns instantly.

?Let?s try something else,? Carpenter suggests. He launches an airplane flight simulator on the screen. His instructions are terse: ?You guys on the left are controlling roll; you on the right, pitch. If you point the plane at anything interesting, I?ll fire a rocket at it.? The plane is airborne. The pilot is ? 5,000 novices. For once the auditorium is completely silent. Everyone studies the navigation instruments as the scene outside the windshield sinks in. The plane is headed for a landing in a pink valley among pink hills. The runway looks very tiny.

There is something both delicious and ludicrous about the notion of having the passengers of a plane collectively fly it. The brute democratic sense of it all is very appealing. As a passenger you get to vote for everything; not only where the group is headed, but when to trim the flaps.

As the 5,000 conference participants begin to take down their plane for landing, the hush in the hall is ended by abrupt shouts and urgent commands. The auditorium becomes a gigantic cockpit in crisis. The plane is pitching to the left in a sickening way. It is obvious that it will miss the landing strip and arrive wing first. Yet the mob somehow aborts the landing and pulls the plane up sensibly. They turn the plane around to try again.

How did they turn around? Nobody decided whether to turn left or right, or even to turn at all. Nobody was in charge. But as if of one mind, the plane banks and turns wide. It tries landing again. Again it approaches cockeyed. The mob decides in unison, without lateral communication, like a flock of birds taking off, to pull up once more. On the way up the plane rolls a bit. And then rolls a bit more. At some magical moment, the same strong thought simultaneously infects 5,000 minds: ?I wonder if we can do a 360??

Without speaking a word, the collective keeps tilting the plane. There?s no undoing it. As the horizon spins dizzily, 5,000 amateur pilots roll a jet on their first solo flight. It was actually quite graceful. They give themselves a standing ovation.

? from Out of Control, by Kevin Kelly</BLOCKQUOTE>
What this example suggests ? and the lengthy text of the book supports ? is the notion that large-scale and highly effective cooperation can emerge from the individual actions of large numbers of individuals without the presence of any higher level control or coordination whatsoever. In effect, that a genuine ?group mind? can spontaneously arise from the autonomous actions of individuals, if given the right tools to facilitate such ?out of control? cooperation!

To my mind, investigating and thinking along such lines of voluntary self-organizing behavior is the way in which the path to social transcendence will be found, while sweeping Utopian visions of world government built on old methods of top-down centralized social structure will at best delay the process ? and at worst invite an Aquarian Age that looks more like a global concentration camp than the vision of human peace, love and harmony that we so dearly hope for in the new age dawning.

It?s worth thinking about.

[demitramn]

(re: the excerpt above)
interested in taking a look at Kevin Kelly's book"Out of Control: The New Biology of Machines, Social Systems, and the Economic World"? here's the link to an online copy: http://www.kk.org/outofcontrol/

according to Keanu Reeves, every actor in The Matrix Revisited had to read this book (Out of Control) before they could open the original script. to watch the short edited video clip from the making of The Matrix, go to: http://www.kk.org/interviews/matrix.php

[sparhawk]

Interesting article, thanks.

I wonder if that sort of behavior applies to presidential elections. Perhaps there may yet be some hope or perhaps the collective plane may crash and burn, again... It would certainly speak poorly of our collective attitude if it did. But, again and said in so many other places: garbage in, garbage out. The greatest enemy of humanity are "inertia and apathy". If we let the regular media be our only provider of the news whereby we form our opinions we are certainly doomed. For real change to happen there must be a collective "snap out of it!" from the giant bib of manipulated news media and people, collectively, should find independent sources of news. For that to happen there must be a "want". Sad to say it, but I don't see that "want" approaching. Most of us are just too happy to be fed. Unfortunately, people respond best to "shock" and that's when the masters of manipulation are waiting in the sidelines to apply their own biased spin to reality. Sadly, "want" that comes from "shock is too prone to manipulation. At this point in history, with the sorry state of affairs we have in the world, it shows all too well that we are behaving more as a herd than a "collective wisdom".

Luis

[jeanystar]

Ver interesting article..thanks Demitra...
Luis, I don think there will be any immediate 'snap out of it," at this time..but I don't think it necessarily has to happen on
a very grand scale.

.the other day, I went to the site mentioned by annie called wayofheaven and was so depressed to discover that my birth hexagram was 12....(a little knowledge is a dangerous thing)....anyway, I am getting to my point..at least, my ruling line was 1, not a bad omen...and as I thought about it, I realized I could look at the hexagram in a way that read it as the conditions of the time into which I was born and live...Even in my own family, as well as in the country, the rulership or prevailing forces were ones that seemed oppressive, alien to me, and "in the way" of the kind of collective progress i seemed to envision. And yet, line one speaks of withdrawal from such disappointment...preserving principles..and withdrawal WITH others, pulling up the root grass with me.it also indicates success and progress coming from an unexpected corner, a different kind of leadership, emrging from one that refused to participate in the unjustice prevailing. The more I thought of it, the more the hexagram made sense for me, as well as for the times I was born into, and it gave me hope that my "alternative" stance has likeminded others, that the current generation has many who would be working in a kind of seclusion for the higher principles.

it can be frightening to understand that most of the elections in US are decided, not by the deep thinking, wise and most enlightened, but by "the common man"...who may base his vote on hate or ignorance or whatever else moves him at the moment. However, our fate is not sealed by such "inferior forces"...there is a transcendance that can come into play...and it comes from underneath the scenes.

[heylise]

Demitra thanks!

This is sure interesting. It certainly would be the way to let 'the stupid common man' get out of his inertia (including his seemingly conscious choice, which has only to do with the same inertia, being content with listening to the one who shouts loudest or sounds most in his own advantage).
Put him in a position to help fly the plane, and I bet he will in a very short time not be that stupid anymore.

If this could actually be the future, I would want to be there. But even for right now, it gives food for thought (and action). I think it is possible to act like this in a very small sense already, in one's own life. By seeing oneself, and more important, the others around, as very capable of flying the plane. Not alone, but together.

LiSe

[tashij]

How can we, at this point, snap out of it? There are so many conflicting battles, which one to pick. The environment, the planet itself, that is least able to speak in our stupid languages, will explode in our face loudest, the language-less speices of this planet, and this planet itself, is surely what we ought to be listening to.

The media has so many faces, so many presses, between alternative and the ones run by Murdock, that to me, it finally feels any head of the beast is still the beast. In America we hear about 'CODE ORANGE" , which is getting to be a joke, but i really haaaave to dig in American papers to read what is in foreign press: that a terrorist act organized under the name "Wind of Black Death" is, what, 90 percent underway? And that a group called Abu Hafs al-Masri Brigades hopes to undermine US elections so that Bush wins because he inspires insurgency? How many groups are trying to undermine this election? Which conspiracy theory do I believe? This is all crazy.

Systems of talk and religous factions just flag off in the face of dear life itself. Which it seems is difficult to protect and preserve, in all our absurd collectivity.

The wealthy nations (U.S.) had a responsibility to the global community from which it got it's blessed 'cheap product'. The lowest crooks got the upper hand, and now all bets are off.

[candid]

There?s little else in my life more gratifying than engaging my individual toward the betterment of the team, and then of myself. But even a team is individual: set apart from all the other teams. What these high-minded Aquarian ideals always seem to speak of is, the elimination of teams and the individual who plays for them. Today, kids play team sports, but with no score by which to measure their individual and team performance or merit. The focus is on the whole, and the identity-less player is just another goal-less ant in a long succession of ants, working for the global company store. I?d rather be an individual, choosing when, how, and even if to play the game, and for whom. Guess I?m just not very Aquarian. But it won?t be long before my generation is gone, ushering in liberation for all ants. Hale, Aquarius!

[tashij]

I really must ask pardon here for yet another emotional outburst. Luis, you brought up very important points. Dharma, you have a good subject here, i'm so glad to read you on the board again. Im sorry for being so exclamitory. Please pardon, ok im going now.
love to all
(yes, it's true)
tash.

[demitramn]

<CENTER>"I long to accomplish a great and noble task, but it is my chief duty to accomplish small tasks as if they were great and noble." ~~Helen Keller</CENTER>

the concepts of the article that opened this thread, coupled with the ideas that surfaced for each of you, made me really consider the problems and workings of "group mind". it seemed as though you were each feeling a different aspect of the "elephant" and that helped me to clarify my own understanding on the subject and i am glad to share these with you now

there was an emphasis on our collective attitude of apathy as being the main problem, and i absolutely agree. there was also talk of "snapping out of it" which i think is something that can only happen when the inner scales of consciousness (be it of one person or that of a collective) has tipped sufficiently in its favour to warrant such a natural awakening. shock being a condition of unexpected surprise is not an awakening in the true sense, and so doesn't have the power to produce the desired changes we want, though they are, as Luis pointed out, the perfect conditions to further manipulate and control others. if we only understood how vulnerable we remain to the destructive machinations of those who are presently in control, perhaps we might be more inclined to act more purposefully, rather than sit around waiting and hoping that things might change for the better without our individual input

when the herd mentality prevails within anyone, that person is easily manipulated and controlled by anything and anyone that has the power to override their own individual common sense. yet, we all know that no one willingly and with conscious awareness allows themselves to be used pawn-like for purposes that do not serve them. so how is it then that most people are so easily led? As Luis pointed out, the answer is that "many are too happy being fed" and the truth is that there is no such thing as a "free-ride" though many live their lives as though a free-ride not only existed, but was their right

sooner or later, we all get out of life precisely what we've put into it so when we find ourselves sitting on the side-lines complaining about global conditions, we need to consider that the "group-mind" that is presently active and strongest is the one that is producing the outer reality that we're confronted with. and it is happening because there is simply no other force more powerful to override it at this time. changing the direction that matters are heading in on this planet means that each and every one of us needs to recognize that we have a responsibility to stand-up for the "group-mind" that we believe in and, actively and consciously, lend it our daily thought support or it will remain ineffectively weaker than the one that is right now in control

quoting Jeanystar:"the current generation has many who would be working in a kind of seclusion for the higher principles"

this is basically what i meant just now when i said that we should, with awareness, lend our daily thought support to the group-mind effort that we would like to see have a powerful affect on a global scale. you see, the more of us who are actively working on ourselves and consistently and consciously acknowledging that the strength of our power really begins and ends with our thought process, the more effective we will be in directing our power towards changing outer reality to the way we would have it be

in other words:
what we believe will determine what we commit ourselves to (it is the same whether the belief is consciously recognized or below our conscious awareness)

what we commit ourselves to will determine the decisions we make (it is the same whether our committments are directed consciously or from below conscious awareness)

the decisions we make will determine our personal affect on the world around us (it is the same whether these decisions are made consciously or emanate from below conscious awareness)

ultimately, how we affect the world will determine the reality that we personally get to experience (the sixth hermetic principle -the principle of cause and effect- stipulates that that which we toss into the stream of life, consciously or unconsciously, will eventually cause ripples that will flow back to the shore upon which we stand... or as my mother always said, "what you put on your plate has a way of eventually making its way into your mouth")

as LiSe said, we need to see ourselves and others around us, as very capable of flying the plane. by 'intuitively' allying ourselves cooperatively with others we can fly the plane in any direction we want it to go, but first, cooperation. cooperation requires the trust, love and support of a shared brotherhood (Aquarian key word) all working towards the same common goal. yet a distrustful distancing from our fellowman that has become the norm today, spawns more conspiracy theories, as Tashi points out, leaving us even more conflicted, isolated and helpless-feeling. i believe it would help our cause more to work diligently on seeing what is right and creatively cooperating and supporting each other rather than to focus on what is wrong and destructively tear others down out of misguided self-defensiveness

also, though there are many of the belief that there are higher forces at work behind the scenes that will save us before the "inferior forces" win out, i am personally not convinced that this is not just the sort of wishful thinking that has put us in the planetary bind that we are already in. i think it's time that we stopped waiting around, hoping to be saved, and realize that we have everything we need to save ourselves if we trusted that all our small individual efforts can make a huge difference in the long run

in the end, the Aquarian Age is not a focus on the "whole" producing "an identity-less player" as Candid fears. during the Piscean Age, many souls awakened to the FACT that there was more to life than just being a member of a tribe or a family. they discovered that they could also be unique individuals. during the Aquarian Age (which, btw, merely points to a new hour on our evolutionary clock) we will be working out how we, as unique individuals, can be so without sacrificing the whole (which, btw, is what is hurting us so much at this time).

And so, our choices of "when, how, and even if to play the game, and for whom", are very much still a part of game. but to stop hurting ourselves, we we must learn to play the game INTER-dependently, rather than the way we have been --> DEPENDENTLY (helplessly sitting on the side-lines as reflected by the many voiceless citizens around the world) or --> INDEPENDENTLY (aggressively canonizing capitalism's self-serving ways as reflected by the corporate world)

Demitra M.N.

many thanks to everyone who took the time to express their thoughts (including and especially any emotional one's, 'cause afterall, isn't it passion that adds the most vibrant colors to a discussion and makes it stand out as meaningful?) with love ...http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[candid]

Demitra,

Thanks for elaborating and clarifying the Aquarian age. I thoroughly enjoyed reading your thoughts about it, including those which pertained to what I had said. Presenting as you have feels unthreatening to me because there is no loss of individuality involved. What there is is participation on a scale grander than the current force is dictating; the countervailing force which gradually has greater influence, enough perhaps to turn the tide of world strife.

It?s a daunting task. Looking out at so many extreme factions, all pulling, selling and even imposing their world view upon all others. But as I?m understanding it, it isn?t a buy-in to the collective-think, so much, but simply exerting greater energy and force into those principles that move things in a direction we as individuals believe to be more in harmony with love.

It really is worth thinking about.

Your old bud, http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/shades.gif
Candid

[candid]

Demitra,

Being characteristically Gemini (I'm so glad you understand these things), I still question that collective activity doesn't lead ultimately to collective thinking. Standing alone doesn't come naturally to our species. It?s actually earned. And so what begins as an exertion of individual will, joined with others of like mind, can easily also become just another great big movement, steam-rolling over those who don't agree. Becoming angry and even violent does not become any more rational when several million people are sympathetic to the movement. And this is the most common reaction I?ve witnessed when dealing with new-age thinkers: love, harmony, peace ? and if you disagree I?ll cut your head off! It becomes just one dogma that's replaced the last one. Yes, it is safe to say I fear this, in any movement, regardless which quadrant they come from. It?s not paranoia, it?s history.

That said, I understand the merit of praying and working for true love to prevail, if true love genuinely remains the motive. It?s going to take something Really big to change things enough to ensure that result, like a real new age, where humanity?s entire mindset shifts polarity. It won?t be just voluntary without a change of our basic human nature. I dare say, it will take Devine intervention on a massive scale. Pretty revolutionary stuff.

Candid

[jeanystar]

Quote:

....though there are many of the belief that there are higher forces at work behind the scenes that will save us before the "inferior forces" win out, i am personally not convinced that this is not just the sort of wishful thinking that has put us in the planetary bind that we are already in. i think it's time that we stopped waiting around, hoping to be saved, and realize that we have everything we need to save ourselves if we trusted that all our small individual efforts can make a huge difference in the long run
All:
Just so it is understood, when I made the comment about working from behind the scenes in a manner that can transcendantly undermine the "inferior forces," I was in no way talking about wishful thinking, nor was I saying that "someone else" some "secret behind-scene forces" will "save us."
Personal responsibility is tantamount to what I feel we are all talking about.
HOwever....the question of what action to take, if any, is important...It is my feeling that outward agressive actions are not as potent as "non-doing" or what can LOOK like non-doing. Sometimes the most potent action might look to an unpracticed eye as if it were stillness or lack of involvement.
"The softest stuff in all the world
penetrates quickly the hardest.
Insubstantial, it enters in,
where no room is.
In all the world but few can know
accomplishment apart from work,
instruction where no words are used.
By this I know the benefit of something done by quiet being." tao Te Ching

To me the greatest sin is to simply despair.
And the greatest contribution is to be utterly committed to higher awareness, to foresake all else for that. When I am committed to higher awareness and faithful to that commitment, it isn't ever a solitary stance, and I am always swept in with others....what there is to do may be different every day. but to always be ready to respond consciously...is what lets it happen.

[demitramn]

Candid, <BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

And so what begins as an exertion of individual will, joined with others of like mind, can easily also become just another great big movement, steam-rolling over those who don't agree. Becoming angry and even violent does not become any more rational when several million people are sympathetic to the movement. And this is the most common reaction I?ve witnessed when dealing with new-age thinkers: love, harmony, peace ? and if you disagree I?ll cut your head off! It becomes just one dogma that's replaced the last one. Yes, it is safe to say I fear this, in any movement, regardless which quadrant they come from. It?s not paranoia, it?s history.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE> i understand where you are coming from and i certainly agree. this is when Utopian visions of world government are built upon the old methods of TOP-DOWN centralized social structures as they are right now. like this, history will inevitably repeat itself

what we need is an entirely new form of social organization that focuses on facilitating *cooperation* rather than on *enforcing behavior* and is the only thing that will keep history from repeating itself

yet the majority of individuals in the society MUST value *cooperation* ABOVE *personal aggrandizement* otherwise any social organization merely becomes just another form of structure that is built around prescribing and controlling behavior as we have right now

so, it is not "exertion of individual will, joined with others" that brings about the changes we all desire. a cooperativeness and a supportiveness of each other is the only mind-set that will wrest that kind of power and control from the existing group-mind's hold

[demitramn]

Jeanystar <BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

Just so it is understood, when I made the comment about working from behind the scenes in a manner that can transcendantly undermine the "inferior forces," I was in no way talking about wishful thinking, nor was I saying that "someone else" some "secret behind-scene forces" will "save us."<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE> i was pretty sure that this was your underlying belief. in fact, i suspect that most people on this forum, being involved with the I Ching as they are, understand or are coming to understand that they are each reponsible for countering those inferior forces through their everyday approach and behavior. yet there was that 1% chance, even on a board like this, that some of readers might still be motivated by previous religious-based teachings that emphasize trust in something other than oneself

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

Personal responsibility is tantamount to what I feel we are all talking about.
HOwever....the question of what action to take, if any, is important...It is my feeling that outward agressive actions are not as potent as "non-doing" or what can LOOK like non-doing. Sometimes the most potent action might look to an unpracticed eye as if it were stillness or lack of involvement.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE> i agree, but sometimes because we are unable to either choose or to be actively a part of some or many political efforts and causes out there, we think that we are not effective. but this is not true - in fact, politicking and rallying for causes, are not a part of everyone's purpose here. and so i wanted to point out that despite our lack of actual outer participation in SOMEthing definite, developing a sense of watchfulness, awareness, and calmness within (which some form of consistent meditation achieves easily) we have just as much effect and power in how matters evolve than not

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

To me the greatest sin is to simply despair.
And the greatest contribution is to be utterly committed to higher awareness, to foresake all else for that. When I am committed to higher awareness and faithful to that commitment, it isn't ever a solitary stance, and I am always swept in with others....what there is to do may be different every day. but to always be ready to respond consciously...is what lets it happen.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE> nicely said http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[jeanystar]

Thanks Demitra!

What Candid said unfortunately rings true....When I worked for a book store, it was a standing joke that the New Age customers were among the rudest and most impatient.

BUt consider that the so-called New Age MOvement has attracted many who are wounded, in need of healing (as of course we all are) but esp those looking for what sounds like a "quick fix."

However, it takes great maturity to effectively take part in "new age" energies, and it is not a get-rich, get-whole-quick scheme....

A great book by Madeline L'engle, part of her trilogy , is called The Wind In The Door.....
in this book, the little cells inside a BODY are dancing around, having a great time, and singing "WE CAN DO WHATEVER WE WANT.....YAY!!!" BUt these same little individual cells who declare their "divine rights", are nevertheless, slowly destroying the system, even if their little frenzied circles are very large and active,......By neglecting to consider the entirety of the BODY, they contribute to its inevitable destruction.

What saves the Body in the book is the call to "DEEPEN"......the cells eventually surrender..... and the call to deepen, to become PART OF, is heard.....Immediate personal agendas are put aside in favor of a more embracing and ultimately much more fulfilling movement which then heals the entire BODY.

[demitramn]

thanks Jeanystar for the title of that book. i will track down a copy to read <BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

the little cells inside a BODY are dancing around, having a great time, and singing "WE CAN DO WHATEVER WE WANT.....YAY!!!" BUt these same little individual cells who declare their "divine rights", are nevertheless, slowly destroying the system, even if their little frenzied circles are very large and active,......By neglecting to consider the entirety of the BODY, they contribute to its inevitable destruction.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE> sounds like a collection of cells that never figured out what their individual functions within the body were

hurt heart-cells, neglected lung-cells, angry blood-cells, unloved muscle-cells, orphaned brain-cells, and so on... each living in the wrong part of town and running with the wrong crowds; displaced cells each failing to fulfill their natural purpose and seeking only ways to pacify the ensuing sense of meaninglessness that results. and inadvertently producing an out-of-control cancer within the body to which they all belong

it would be great if every cell realized their specific function within the body and applied themselves to it gladly. how healthy we would be then

[hilary]

Maybe if those cells that can do whatever they want actually discovered what they truly do want, and did it...
...instead of trying to work out their functions, and what they ought to be doing to benefit the body as a whole
... then we'd be even healthier?

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[jeanystar]

I thnk that is the point, though, Hilary, the little cells did not deepen enough to discover what they really wanted and what really made them happy...they needed the Yi to help them see the larger picture

[candid]

Cells change according to the commanding group of cells, which is the brain?s system. When we openly receive an answer from the Yi, for example, the brain?s chemistry undergoes a reflexive change, altering all other cells in the body to emulate the new data, thereby creating a newly organized body.

Likewise, to affect the collective existing body of mankind, a similar stimulus of idealistic example must emanate from the rulers of mankind to affect the will of the earth?s individual citizen-cells. A heart cell can not change the mind, unless through the effects of love or fear, for example. But the mind can change the heart. Where the rulers are corrupt, the citizens will suffer.

Fortunately, each human possesses a self-governing system of its own, whereby we can choose the influences we emulate. In this sense, each is their own body, though living within a collective universe. Individual systems develop a posture of defense against intruding cells, which is positive in protection against collective disease, but which is negative against healthy cells that are drawn to cooperate. But sometimes isolation is better than contamination. It?s a sad alternative to collective wellness, however.

[demitramn]

one heart cell by itself cannot change the overall focus of the mind but it can recognize it's place in the overall body and decide to go to take its position gladly

when most stray cells take their proper place within the body then this collective activity has the power to change the mind's focus

but as long as there are many cells running rampant throughout the system, then the rulership of the system will naturally always be one that will reflect this popular "corruption" within the body

therefore, governmental conditions are highly dependent on the understandings and decisions made by each and every cell that composes the body while the mind's focus always reflects the consensus of the majority at any given time

[candid]

A heart cell belongs to the heart. It can not be a liver cell. It doesn't need to take its position, gladly or otherwise. It is what it is, where it is.

Stray cells that run rampant? Sounds like a horror movie. Or maybe a new metal band?

In order for there to be consensus, there must be a head to consent to. Where there is no head for holding together, there is no unity.

[candid]

So, where is that head, if not your own?

[jeanystar]

QUOTE:

"How did they turn around? Nobody decided whether to turn left or right, or even to turn at all. Nobody was in charge. But as if of one mind, the plane banks and turns wide. It tries landing again. Again it approaches cockeyed. The mob decides in unison, without lateral communication, like a flock of birds taking off, to pull up once more. On the way up the plane rolls a bit. And then rolls a bit more. At some magical moment, the same strong thought simultaneously infects 5,000 minds: ?I wonder if we can do a 360??

Without speaking a word, the collective keeps tilting the plane. There?s no undoing it. As the horizon spins dizzily, 5,000 amateur pilots roll a jet on their first solo flight. It was actually quite graceful. They give themselves a standing ovation.

? from Out of Control, by Kevin Kelly

The collective heart has a lot more power than we give it credit for.

quote:
"...A heart cell belongs to the heart. It can not be a liver cell. It doesn't need to take its position, gladly or otherwise. It is what it is, where it is. "

NOT so , in the human BODY....many many (maybe most) people are out of alignment with the flow of Life, struggling, using addictions to pacify the unease and depression, etc. etc.

quote:
"Stray cells that run rampant? Sounds like a horror movie. Or maybe a new metal band? "

HOw about cancer? And in the human body, liken it to serial killers, or gangs, or corporate greed and corruption, or terrorist cells (who believe they are doing what is right).

And Candid, I think isolation is an illusion. We are part of a body, whether we like it or not.

[candid]

Jeanystar,

That's the flimsy thing about the new age perspective. We are free to move things around whimsically to suit our ideals. You have not explained to me how a heart cell is anything other than what it is. "Out of alignment with the flow of Life" does not change what a heart is. If the heart is injured, it will let the brain know, and the brain will perform its chemical changes necessary to give aid to the heart. Addictions and the like do introduce toxic influence to the whole system, I agree. And if we don't isolate from them we might at least insulate from them, for the wellness of our whole body.

[demitramn]

very well said Jeanystar http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif
<BLOCKQUOTE>.....</BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi Candid, this is my take
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

A heart cell belongs to the heart. It can not be a liver cell. It doesn't need to take its position, gladly or otherwise. It is what it is, where it is.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>
do you live in a world where all is as it should be? i don't think you do or you would not subscribe to the belief that you need to isolate yourself lest you be contaminated. i don't think we can dispute that the world we all look out upon is populated with huge numbers of people who have yet to figure out what they should be doing with their lives and then doing it
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

Stray cells that run rampant? Sounds like a horror movie. Or maybe a new metal band?<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>
the horrific things that sometimes occur out on the world stage issue forth from those "stray" and the "rampant" elements / inferior forces. this is what you get when you have many who haven't figured out that everything they do or don't do affects EVERYONE equally, not just themselves
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

In order for there to be consensus, there must be a head to consent to. Where there is no head for holding together, there is no unity.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>
here we part understanding. if you took the time to read this whole thread with care you would come away with a new and different perspective. you are being very literal in your understanding of the subject here and are therefore sticking to the old and tired top-to-bottom social organization of government where one person holds power over others, yet this thread is precisely about shifting power into the hands of the organic whole where there is no actual "head" and no ONE person holds power and where everyone collectively is a CONSCIOUS participant

[candid]

As for gangs, terrorists and serial killers, it's a perfect example of what I've been saying. The head they follow is corrupt, therefore they (the cells) are misguided.

[candid]

Hi Demitra,

If you read carefully what I wrote, I said, "commanding group of cells". I never said or suggested One holds the power. I also referred to the head as "the brain's system".

As for the "old and tired top-to-bottom social organization", maybe you're right. It's pretty old. At least 3,500 years or so.

[demitramn]

i really don't understand what you're getting at Candid

it seems that because the detailed internal workings of a transcendent social organization is not being explained to you in a step-by-step fashion that you invalidate the whole concept. too bad

anyway, this type of resistence is not so different from the proof that scientists have demanded from err... people of faith over the years

just because others can't give you the proof that would convince you, doesn't mean that there isn't something there that resistence may be responsible for shutting out. something to consider perhaps (?)

[hilary]

I've just finished the newsletter and let myself read all the original article - special treat. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/wink.gif
I find it very good indeed - and very much aware of the dangers of 'enforced spirituality'.

I am starting to find that cell/body metaphor here quite confusing - hard to know exactly how metaphorically it's being used! But I do also find that I'm very resistant to it. I think to make it work as an image for human society you'd have to imagine a body full of entirely autonomous cells, where every one was part of the central nervous system, and every one could change its function repeatedly throughout life. (I actually find that, 'I can do whatever I want' is a very positive and necessary affirmation for me.) I don't believe in human beings who have their function determined from birth, and whose purpose can only be understood as to serve the greater whole.

Quote:

"Don't ask yourself what the world needs; ask yourself what makes you come alive. And then go and do that. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Harold Whitman

[demitramn]

Hilary,

we are all so incredibly different and unique just from a physical standpoint so what makes being born with a specific function so threatening to even consider?

we each serve our immediate and extended families in our own way so how is serving the whole any more threatening than that?

this "coming alive" that Harold Whitman speaks of is very much the same as becoming aware -a conscious participant, as i've said. once we awaken and experience this 'aliveness' we also experience a comfort in pursuing that which is inherently natural for us to pursue rather than repressing or resisting in order to "fit in" with our societies mores which may not have been accepting or openly welcoming of our function up till then

[hilary]

I suppose a lot depends on what kind of thing you mean by a 'function'. I find the word grates a bit because I think of a 'function' as something a component in a large machine has.

And serving the whole is no threat... but starting thinking about individuals first and foremost in terms of what service they should be giving to the whole - again, I don't like the feel of it. Purely my gut reaction, this - and only to the 'cells with functions' vocabulary, not to the original article.

[hilary]

(And a lot more depends on who is allowed to decide what my function is, and when/whether I'm performing it!)

[candid]

Demitra,

I disagree, so I must not understand. I resist your model of utopia, so I must be acting out of unreasonable fear. I have a different ideal model, so I must have your model explained to me in a step-by-step fashion, as though I'm a child. This is exactly the kind of condescension that seems inseparable from proponents of new age philosophy. If someone disagrees, they are stuck in conventional thinking. There must be some deeply rooted psychological reason, causing the breakdown of an otherwise perfect social order.

From the original article you?ve presented:

The Aquarius personality is certainly idealistic and socially minded ? but it may also be overzealous, self-righteous, and given to sweeping visions of social reform that the Aquarian is only too ready to impose on everyone else.

[demitramn]

Hilary,
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

(And a lot more depends on who is allowed to decide what my function is, and when/whether I'm performing it!)<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE> no one other than you decides what your purpose here is and when and where you will perform it

<BLOCKQUOTE>.....</BLOCKQUOTE>
Candid,
no one's talking down to you. you yourself asked for an explanation further up, so this is why i expressed myself the way i did

but that's how it always goes with you. instead of simply explaining and clarifying your point of view, you drag your feelings and your pride into the discussion and the relevent points that you should have addressed (because these were the points that you made an issue about to begin with) don't get covered because you shift the discussion into the arena of feelings

if you're willing to keep the discussion on track then i'm willing to keep this going on my end otherwise i'll busy myself with other matters

[megabbobby]

rev hazy sunrise:

like to best serve the universe is to have an ego so huge and selfish that it is bigger than the universe...so that youre so egotistical that you can just chill

pure untainted selfishness as the most selfless yoga

[candid]

Demitra,

Maybe you just don?t read what you write, or read it as another might.

?i don't think you do or you would not subscribe to the belief that you need to isolate yourself lest you be contaminated?

I said nothing about personally being an isolationist. I said nothing about myself at all.

?if you took the time to read this whole thread with care you would come away with a new and different perspective.?

I did take the time to read this whole thread, and the whole article. You assume that if I did read it I?d naturally come away seeing everything as you do.

?you are being very literal in your understanding of the subject here and are therefore sticking to the old and tired top-to-bottom social organization of government?

This is your evaluation of my reasons for maintaining my own beliefs, which according to you are old and tired. Yes, I am being literal in order to bring the practical into the ideological. I don?t consider it old or tired.

?it seems that because the detailed internal workings of a transcendent social organization is not being explained to you in a step-by-step fashion that you invalidate the whole concept. too bad?

I?m disagreeing because I see things differently from your way, not because I need your ideas broken down step by step. I never discounted your ideas wholesale, I just don?t buy into them wholesale, and clearly I point out why. It?s not ?too bad? at all.

?anyway, this type of resistance is not so different from the proof that scientists have demanded from err... people of faith over the years?

This type of ?resistance?? It?s not resistance, it?s individuality. It isn?t out of lack of scientific evidence or that I?m a follower of some dogmatic faith that I have a different ideal model than yourself. Can you accept that?

I?m keeping my part of this discussion completely on topic. I haven?t tried to psychoanalyze you in the process as way of diminishing your points. I addressed points according to how I honestly perceive them. I am guilty, however, of making a couple of generalizations which I?ve observed about new age philosophers, as you have done regarding those who are not; those who ?resist?.

Feelings and pride? Sure, I have them. This is a bad thing? But my points were based not on feelings or pride. They were based on what I think is real and true. Can you accept that without seeing me as resisting, or being emotional and prideful? I honestly have felt little emotion throughout this thread.

[jeanystar]

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/spin.gif I think semantics separate us at times
Hilary.... Consider how you took your love of the YI and developed this site. You are being inherently you, and in doing what you obviously love and do well, you provide a valuable focal point for many all over the world. In fulfilling yourself, you serve the whole. And if tomorrow you said you were folding up your tent, and were off to another heart's calling, that would be well and good too. It is not about self-sacrifice but about "becoming alive" as the unique individuals we are.
I totally agree with that and i think you and Demitra say the same thing.

Candid, I respect your viewpoint . May I say this though?... I sense a kind of "disillusionment" coming thru your words at times......almost as if you have been disappointed in some way...perhaps by the bright hopes of a "new age." ? I could be wrong. Forgive me if I am.

In the early seventies, there was a song by graham nash :YES, We Can CHange The World.
And what happened? A lot of the former hippies are now capitalists and CEOs, or maybe dead from drug use, alot of people traded "their tired wings" in .... and it looks like "nuttin" happened... Existential depression. "Is this all there is?" Maybe it is? Maybe we should just accept it? Business as usual? Shouldn't we be practical and accept history?

BUt, like the old song said, this is only the DAWNING of the age of Aquarius, not the end...just maybe we aint seen nothin yet. And that is why when I read an article like the one Demetra posted here, I get excited. Remembering that there is a greater purpose..and that it is not going to be fulfilled by the head, but from the collective heart, from the bottom up. Hexagram 12, line 1.

I refuse to minimize as "new age philosophy" the faith that the spiritual heart of mankind is capable of something much larger than what we have heretofore seen and experienced.

[candid]

Hi Jeanystar,

Of course you may say whatever you wish to me. I don't bite. I just give my honest feedback. But if you address my person rather than my ideas, then you can expect my personal response, emotions and all.

Ok. First, you're correct, in that I've danced with the Aquarian dream before. Thank you for crediting me with having personal experience with it. It isn't anything I haven't held as the answer to all human woes before. I was a radical, and was radical about my radical-ness. I held views to the far left of Hilary Clinton, and saw communism as "the way" to free the people. I went to B-ins, love-ins, anti-war demonstrations and women's lib rallies. I understand the concept of equality and unity.

But here is where you're incorrect. I never was disillusioned from those things, I learned from them. I didn't give them up, I gave them a realistic place to live. I didn't destroy them, I refined them. I didn't grow out of them, I grew out from them. In the evolutionary process, I embraced other ideologies, including yuppie materialism, religious and political conservatism. And eventually I found myself walking the middle path. The middle doesn't exclude any one theology for another. Neither is it wishy-washy. Test me and see if I'll take a stand. I am exactly where I am supposed to be for this time.

I don't begrudge the Christians, just keep your Gospel your own. I don't begrudge the new age beliefs or followers, just provide room for me to live my life according to my convictions. Sing to the choir for the support you need, but don't sing for my salvation.

During the time of my Christian path, my eldest son, a sincere Buddhist, said something to me which changed my life. "As long as you treat me as a soul in need of salvation, I can never fully trust you as my equal." He was right, and I changed my whole outlook as a result of that one statement. (Thank you, David.)

Proud and feeling,
Candid

[demitramn]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

Maybe you just don?t read what you write, or read it as another might.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>i do believe that i actually read what i write Candid, yet it is probably fair to say that i can't possibly know what someone else will read into it. this is why i try my best to stay on topic by explaining my point-of-view, when my intentions are clearly being misunderstood, as well as stating how i am interpreting what another is saying to me, so that they may know where i stand with their words. one cannot realistically do more than that. trying to figure out in advance how others will interpret me or my words is an impractical way to live -i'd never write another word or walk out the door

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

I said nothing about personally being an isolationist. I said nothing about myself at all.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE> who are you talking about then, how do you know this, and how is it relevant to the to the discussion? when you toss something like this out there without clarification how can i assume that this is NOT about you or that it doesn't have something to do with a personal experience?

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

I did take the time to read this whole thread, and the whole article. You assume that if I did read it I?d naturally come away seeing everything as you do.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE> i do not expect you to change your standpoint. but if you're going to take an opposing stance then clarify your position. don't assume that i know or even remember what your life story may be simply because you are of a certain age or because you've talked about yourself in the past

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

This is your evaluation of my reasons for maintaining my own beliefs, which according to you are old and tired. Yes, I am being literal in order to bring the practical into the ideological. I don?t consider it old or tired.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE> of course this is your option but it is not mine. it is old and tired - having been worked and reworked in so many ways, it has always proven itself to be damaging and destructive in the long run to the individual spirit as well as the collective spirit. in the end, i still don't understand your need to defend a social system that is still so firmly entrenched anyway

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

I?m disagreeing because I see things differently from your way, not because I need your ideas broken down step by step. I never discounted your ideas wholesale, I just don?t buy into them wholesale, and clearly I point out why. It?s not ?too bad? at all.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE> again, i am not looking for your approval. and, you say that you clearly pointed out everything yet as far as i'm concerned you didn't really go to any trouble to explain your earlier comments until your last two posts

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

This type of ?resistance?? It?s not resistance, it?s individuality. It isn?t out of lack of scientific evidence or that I?m a follower of some dogmatic faith that I have a different ideal model than yourself. Can you accept that?<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE> you can have whatever you want and you can be an individual in all your glory, as i personally would not have it any other way. therefore, when your opposition to the topic of this thread comes across like you really believe that i NEED you to agree with me, then i'm convinced that something else is driving your opposition, and IMO it's not objectivity

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

Feelings and pride? Sure, I have them. This is a bad thing?<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE> if it derails the discussion then it has no usefulness. the value in a discussion lies in clarifying ideas not getting me to feel your feelings

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

But my points were based not on feelings or pride. They were based on what I think is real and true. Can you accept that without seeing me as resisting, or being emotional and prideful? I honestly have felt little emotion throughout this thread.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE> if this is true then the misunderstanding truly stems from insufficient involvement on your part. it so often happens that when we don't fully engage every level of our being to our discussions, we perceive in others what we are not putting out and others sense something amiss with us as well. in this case, i was perceived as being overly passionate about the subject -when really i was not- while i interpreted your response as a resistance in general

[candid]

Glad you hung in there, Demitra. No matter what else goes down between us, I still admire your spirit.

I'll address your first question, and let the rest slide, because nothing will be resolved through belaboring it further.

RE: isolation:

"Fortunately, each human possesses a self-governing system of its own, whereby we can choose the influences we emulate. In this sense, each is their own body, though living within a collective universe. Individual systems develop a posture of defense against intruding cells, which is positive in protection against collective disease, but which is negative against healthy cells that are drawn to cooperate. But sometimes isolation is better than contamination. It?s a sad alternative to collective wellness, however."

This isn't about me. It's about my idea of how the human system operates, physically, mentally and emotionally. It's logical thinking, to my mind. I later clarified and elaborated a bit by responding to Jeanystar:

"Addictions and the like do introduce toxic influence to the whole system, I agree. And if we don't isolate from them we might at least insulate from them, for the wellness of our whole body."

Examples of this are: the banning of smoking in public areas, using condoms in sexual relations, building a kid-fence around an unguarded swimming pool, or using a sun block to prevent skin cancer. If I was well versed in human anatomy, I'd be able to apply it practically to cellular structure, and their internal defensive mechanisms.

Why even mention it? I used it as an example of how the head/brain is in charge of the rest of the body's functions, and why it's so important for healthy leadership in human civilization.

Anyway, now we really are way off topic, instead, bantering about you and me. I've tried to make my points clear and easy to understand. There?s no point in repeating them. Misunderstandings be damned, it's still a good topic, and I'm glad you brought it up. It's up to anyone who reads this thread to draw their own conclusions.

Take care,
Candid

[demitramn]

Candid,
great, i understand where you were coming from with the isolation bit, though you have to admit that it serves to explain matters as viewed from the old system set-up, rather than from the one that heads this thread, and also explains why i didn't quite understand how it fit in into the overall discussion

your concern seems to be (correct me if i'm wrong)that any prevailing 'rulership' can corrupt and cause the citizens to suffer just as much as they do now. yet what i have been trying to say all along is that should everyone within a given system be happily doing their thing, then this would be the mentality that drives /heads the prevailing 'rulership' of that system. from that type of 'head' or prevailing mentality, corruption seems to me to be a non-issue. of course, this is all speculation on my part and may prove to hold huge gapping holes in practice, still, it seems to me like the better alternative; attempting to continually work the old system when it has proven to be 'disfunctional', even when applied to the small family unit, seems redundant at best

<BLOCKQUOTE>.....</BLOCKQUOTE> finally, Meggabobby, in a convoluted way you make perfect sense to me - if you have a newsletter i'd like to opt-in http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[sparhawk]

Candid, et al,

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

Why even mention it? I used it as an example of how the head/brain is in charge of the rest of the body's functions, and why it's so important for healthy leadership in human civilization.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

The discussion seems to be getting too passionate and personal and in those I rather stay away. However, I must point out something that's so obvious that is very easy to miss:

A brain <FONT SIZE="+2">is</FONT> a collection of cells working in harmony (or at least is what I hope for in my case) http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

For the rest, I really liked your son's reply to you. Words to live by.

Luis

[demitramn]

here's a link to a page that i thought some of you might find of interest:

http://ascension2000.com/09.28.03.htm

(note: it would probably be interesting to discuss the particulars of this article one-on-one, but i am not open to doing so on the board) enjoy! http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/clipart/happy.gif

[candid]

Luis, they are words I do try to live by.

Demitra, yes, it could be applied to withdrawing from political participation, or at least not getting sucked up into the hype and corruption, from either side. It could also mean shutting the windows to obvious propaganda. I am disturbed by the Presidential campaigns presently flooding the airwaves, from both sides. There?s a point where I have to shut it out to maintain my peace. Same with the fear initiated by terrorists. I can make room to be aware, give some thought to it, and form beliefs about it. But there?s not much I am able to do about it; prayer notwithstanding.

You know I'm prone to hopping onto the other side of the net when someone presents an interpretable idea with absolute certainty. But know that I do understand the concepts you speak of. Perhaps a dream I had might illustrate this:

I was flying in loose formation with a flock of souls. We were all singing a new song in perfect, spontaneous harmony. Far beneath us was a golden field of wheat, softly waving in the wind. In the distance I could see workers in the field, toiling. The flock descended upon the workers, and they all joined in singing. Everything was perfect and spontaneous, nothing from memory, for there was no remembrance. The feeling was beyond what my words could describe, but unspeakable joy comes the closest. I recall looking to the horizon and wondering, but where is the savior? (was Christian at the time) My mind drifted away from the crowd, as I pondered the absence of the giver of all this joy. I remember thinking, he's probably in Zion - I'll meet him eventually. And then in spirit, I rejoined the group with no aims or home of my own.

Though the dream was within the landscape of Christian faith, the ideals were no different than man?s loftiest ideals in any religion: unity with nature, unity with souls, and unity with God, even when unseen.

If I argue with you, it is only to resolve uncertainties within myself. I have to believe it?s not much different with you. Why else bother to talk about it? How we get there isn?t as important as getting there. Wherever there is.

later