Hexagram 11 > 50

[aglaya]

Hello, everyone, I'm sorry I couldn't come up with a bit more imaginative name for this thread! :)

I believe that i could use some help or, to be more precise, your impressions on a specific questions and the accompanying hexagram.

Here's the thing: I'm not an I-ching reader but a Horary astrologer. Close enough, aye?! :) And I have been analysing one Horary chart cast upon a Question asked by a female Querent this autumn for which the definite outcome is still not known. I must say that i am very interested in I-.ching but I have never asked for a confirmation of my readings in any other divination technique. The truth is, I'm not doing it now either but it turns out that this client of mine is very fond I-ching and that she apparently double-checks all of astrological analyses with her I-ching reader and the other way around :) . But, even more importantly, this time, I believe that both me and her I-ching reader are having troubles convincing her that the readings cannot be altered and that she should finally "buy" what we are trying to "sell" her. :) Well, sort of speaking anyway.
Now, whilst it very common to have multiple conversations with clients who, unsatisfied with what they hear, tend to continously try to pull out a positive answer from a negative chart, this time, oddly enough, I believe I have the opposite situation as this Querent is very, very sceptical about my reading (or, should I say, our readings) that is actually very promising and positive.

I'm not saying that she is wrong because, for what it's worth, we can all make a mistake but the truth is, i've been scratching my head over this chart for quite a few months and I still don't think that I can find a single sign of a possible negative outcome whilst the Querent is becoming more and more desperate.
In autumn, when she first asked the Question, she admitted that she had already visited an I-ching reader and said that our readings were both very optimistic and alike. i didn't ask for any details at the time
Unfortunately, last week, she ended up being very disappointed by the whole situation and wanted me to cast a new chart. But I had to tell her that it wasn't possible as Horary charts have a specific period of validity and, unles the circumstances had significantly changed (which they had not), she should rely upon her first reading. She then said that she had asked a new I-ching question :) and that the situation, apparently, still looked promising only that she could not find a single reason in reality to support that. At that point I kindly asked her to share the results of her I-chin reading wirth me which she did. I am very, very interested in hearing as to what exactly an i-ching reader could have told her because we obviously agree that the general tone of the situation si very positive (and here I might have to add that this is really one of the most promising Horary charts that i have seen in a a very long time).

Ok, so, the Question was asked by a female Querent, single and 32yo . She wanted to know if there was any romantic potential between her and a particular man whom she had been noticing for quite some time only whom she had never actually met.
As some of you might know, Horary charts provide very thorough descriptions of situations with many details and additional informations which i will skip here but I will, of course, share my reading in general with you. her plan was to visit him in his firm as a client because it seemed like a good way to get to know him better (or at all) and was interested in hearing as to how the situation might start developing from there. According to the Querent, the man seemed to be more than interested in her as well.
My answer after the chart delineation was done was that her idea was actually very good as the encounters on his territory (home, office etc.) seemed like the best posible choice and that it would be a great place to organise their first meeting. The mutual affection between the two of them was more than obvious and the situation looked very promising. The way to his heart (and body! :)) WAS open and the chart was clearly suggesting that a strong relationship might be born soon.
I finally had a chart where the two people from the Question might actually end up being together which, unfortunately, isn't all that common thing in our practice. I couldn't find a single sign of his coldness, rejection or of the lack of interest on his side. The only thing that i was sure of was that there was going to be some sort of delay and that the things would not start moving until mid-February or, even more likely, mid-March.

Just around that time, she finally decided to go over there and to meet him. She phoned me when she got back home and she was more than disappointed. She said that she only spent about 15min there, that he didn't seem interested in her and that he even said that he could not help her ( she thought that she would hire him for a specific project) which only sealed her main impression of a cold man who is not at all interested in her.
The only thing that I, as an astrologer , now have, is that same old chart. Something that her I-ching reader has, is indeed a new reading but, according to the Querent, with the same final hexagram as the first time (I am not surprised to hear that, it happens in Horary astrology all the time).
So, basically, i have a confirmation of my old reading in that i-ching reading because, since I decided to take this information seriously, the things have obviously not changed a bit and our client just might be a bit too impatient. but still, i would really appreciate your impressions and thoughts on this hexagram .

She says that the result was:
hexagram 11 with changing lines 1,4,6 resulting in hexagram 50.


So, what would you, as I-ching readers, say if you'd gotten this result for a question regarding a romantic potential between two people?

Thank you in advance!

aglaya

[willowfox]

She says that the result was:
hexagram 11 with changing lines 1,4,6 resulting in hexagram 50.


So, what would you, as I-ching readers, say if you'd gotten this result for a question regarding a romantic potential between two people?

Now, line 11.1 suggests her desire to snag this man as she feels that they are compatible, while line 11.4 suggests the meeting but 11.6 suggests a downfall, or plans going wrong, look at the text the whole story falls apart, and if she were to persist in chasing him then she would end up with more than just egg on her face, humiliation would be just a side problem.

Now Hex 50 is very positive but without the wood to feed the fire, then you have no relationship, so without a sign from the man then there is no fire, and line 11.6 points to that fact. Line 11.6 blocks any hope of a relationship.

I have used horary for many years so I can only assume that you have misread the chart is some way, or you have overlooked an important detail.

[aglaya]

Hi, willowfox! And thank you for your reply!

I'm afraid (if that is the right choice of words) that there is no mistake :) and I'm not trying to act as my own advocate, believe me :) - this chart simply has no negative signs. That is actually why I posted this whole story here in the first place; as you can imagine, Horary charts have so many details and it isn't always possible to deliver a straightforward answer to the question (after all, the things are barely ever black&white in reality, how could they sound simple in astrology!? :D )but the problem with this one is that it is just that- a very promising chart. not a single sign of a possible negative outcome or of the non-radicality that would certainly put a question mark over the whole reading. I've shared it with a few very experienced horary astrologers and they agreed, besides, like I already said, we are usually surpised to see such promising charts as people often seek for an astrological reading in the times of desperation and the answers are often negative.
But, there is something that should be kept in mind, of course- such charts or any other divination readings can never tell as to what the Querent will literally do or will he/she and how use the potential promised in the chart. So, we may be talking about her moves that do not agree with what had been suggested to her but, also, we could be talking about impatience as no one has ever told her that she would marry this man the first time she sees him.

Now, I would really like to know as to what exactly her first I-ching reading sounded like but, now that you have mentioned the problems caused by the 4th and 6th changing lines, i have to say that this description perfectly fits her story and this question was asked only a day after the meeting took place. But, I must say that there is still something that causes confusion in my head- generally speaking, if we have a very positive final hexagram and the initial phase of the situation described as full of obstacles or even coloured by the lack of potential (8cooperation on the other side etc.) as you have pointed out in this case, then how does an I-ching reader blend the two into a single picture? Or, in other words, how can the final result look so promising if "there is no wood"? I'm not very familiar with other divination techniques but I do know that sometimes tarot readers blend such, apparently contradictory evidences into a single story, in a way that they actually use the negative signs as the promise for obstacles or problems that need to be overcome? But the final result should be attainable, shouldn't it?!

Also, I am very surprised to read all this this because her I-ching reader has, apparently, only advised her to keep the hope and be patient as she has a good promise fgor this situation. (This makes sense after you have shared your impressions on the value of the final hexagram and the symbolics of the changing lines 4 and 6; she obviously took the fact that the final hexagram looked promissing as a goal that can only be reached by "breaking" the obstacles promised by the changing lines, at least that is how it looks to me).

Naturally, this story has looked promising to me from the beginning, that I have already said, but the chart was showing some clear signs of the Querent's lack of real interest in the beginning- much less, it was very obvious that she would soon start thinking of re-establishing a relationship with an old flame which indeed happened though she didn't really believe that at first either. :) That is what caused the whole delay in the first place.

Anyway, than you so much for your answer and for taking time to read all this. ;-)


aglaya

[willowfox]

In this case you read the lines first then the 2nd hex if applicable. Therefore if something negative crops up on the way to the 2nd hex it then negates the potential, well in this case at least.

I also do tarot readings on another forum and we judge by what cards are where, so if the general theme is negative then a single good card will take on a negative aspect or whatever.

Well, telling her to have hope is all fine and good but line 11.6 says don't bother as how can she "force" the man in question to take an interest in her?

[aglaya]

Well, like I said, i am not really familiar with the synthesis of reading elements in other divination techniques but I mentioned Tarot because I am aware that every divination technique has to respect certain hierarchy. As you have already mentioned, in Tarot, the cards have their own places that helps in distinguishing the elements of past and present from the future influences as well as in determining the causes and mutual influences but I honestly believed that no divination technique can bring about a result that can actually not be attained i.e. that a promising final hexagram (and I have learnt its value from you :) ) can actually be negated by the previous events. I wonder why it is there then?
In astrological readings, the genral tone of the situation is what we must pay attention to: for instance, if a female Querent were to ask if she could enter a secret relationship with a married man (just an example, though a common one in practice), we might find many testimonies of the posibility that such an "activity" would take place if the Querent decides to persue the idea but if the general tone and the final outcome support the idea that she would get hurt then the chart is technically negative. But that is the FINAL outcome (or, at least, it would be if the Querent decides to stick to her idea). On the other hand, if the general tone and the final promise is good, then all the obstacles that the Querernt might experince in the nearest future can be overcome and very stressful events are examined only as parts of a single line of events that can, eventually, bring about a positive result.
>That said, I would have expected that the final hexagram were the representative of the final outcome and highly dependant on the previous one- the flow or the course of the events - and that the final reslotuion could never be positive if the developement of the situation can be broken at a certain point ! But, we learn something new every day don't we?! :)
Thanks!

[willowfox]

>That said, I would have expected that the final hexagram were the representative of the final outcome and highly dependent on the previous one- the flow or the course of the events - and that the final resolution could never be positive if the development of the situation can be broken at a certain point !

For some questions the final hex does not even enter the equation.

As I said before, I have studied and practiced horary for quite some time, and know a lot about the subject, both theory and practical, that is why I still think that you have made a simple mistake somewhere or other, and/or the question has been misunderstood. I am not questioning your skills but a simple mistake in erecting the chart can screw the whole reading.

[aglaya]

well, like i said, we all make mistakes but, when we are not sure, we consult other astrologers. i understand what you're trying to say but I do have to point out that technical or "simple" mistakes in erecting charts are not at all common and should never happen- professional astrologers deal with other people's lives and placing a planet into a wrong house is just not something that can or should happen. :) We can make mistakes in delineations, we might have s specific way of blending the testimonies into a single picture but silly little mistakes would be absolutely intolerable, of course.
I have been working as an Astrologer for 7 years now and have switched to Horary astrology (no more natal studies except on very, very rare occasions).
as for understanding the questions, as you surely know- the stars do not pay much attention to grammar :) - the chart clearly pinpoints the area of the Querent's main concern no mater how he or she phrases the question and what I alweays try to make sure of is that the Querent really is in need of the answer and that he or she is sincere about it. because, everything else usually simply results in non-radical charts that are cearly suggetsing that the Querent was not sincere or that there is an underlying question.
My prognosis of the first few months proved to be correct, the future will say as to how well my reading was in general but what keeps on and on bugging me ever since i read your first response is- why did the I-ching reader tell her that the situation looked promising. She told me that our readings were "alike"!