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Hex 23 Always Upsets Me

laylab

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Perhaps this hexegram upsets me because the translations of it seem overwhelmingly negative.

I got 23.2.3 changing to 18 Repairing what has been spoiled

today after asking about an action I made to clear the air and come to a new understanding with an ex. I wrote a short story based on our relationship and what happened and published it. The reviews were excellent, people wrote to me telling me how
touched they were by it...men and women alike. The story is about an elderly woman, recalling an affair of her youth. It is an obvious allegory for my relationship with my ex lover.

I had two male friends tell me, "There is no way he could read that and not be touched."

He has thought, that I betrayed him but the truth is not what he thinks.

I feel now that he has read the story, just this week in fact. A mutual friend sent it to him.

I asked the iching IF he read it and it answered

I got 23.2.3 changing to 18 Repairing what has been spoiled

My initial reaction to this hexagram is to be upset. I almost started to cry. There is no way to read the story and be angry or upset. We split ways one year ago, time has passed and I wrote about him with enormous love. I can't post the story here because it would reveal my identity.

I am hoping that the answer is speaking to me about what happened in the past, what the past situation has been (it was definitly so 23) but this past week I had a dream about him. He came to me and held me and said "everything is ok now".

Is this Hexagram saying that he read the story and is angry and splitting even further away from me?

I asked: How will it (the truth/the story) eventually effect his view of me, of us and what will happen?

It answered 42.1.3 Increase Leading to 53 A steady pace
 
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laylab

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Sorry, HIlary

I posted this in the wrong forum! I meant to put it in the help forum :)
 
M

meng

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Hey stranger.

It's understandable to be unnerved by 23, considering that loss is its main theme. The question is, what could be lost? Which is a question you are best equipped to answer than anyone here, I'd think. Some losses are good, especially if you want to improve your conditions. Like finally getting rid of some old dried timber next to your barn, or letting go of a sentimental item that broke your heart every time you encountered it. Those, I think, are the implications of the 18 element.

Maybe it mended him by giving him closure.

Since I don't know the question, it's hard to be specific, but that's the gist of it.
 

rosada

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It sounds to me as if the question were, "Did he read this story?" If that is the case I think we are once again seeing the problem of trying to get the I Ching to answer a yes-or-no question. The hexagrams seem to be a good description of what you did = you wrote the story to (18) Repair the (23) Splitting Apart = and because this seems to be such a good fit i would argue this is a "Yes" answer. On the other hand it could be that 23 -18 is saying there is a Split between he and the attempt to Work On What Has Been Spoiled - and thus the IC is saying he has not read the story and this is a "No" answer.
Either way I think it's a stretch to also try to get out of this question what his reaction to the story was.
I do like Meng's suggestion the I Ching defines your action of writing and publishing the story as an act of Repairing your heart after the Split.
Rosada
 
M

meng

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I do like Meng's suggestion the I Ching defines your action of writing and publishing the story as an act of Repairing your heart after the Split.

Actually, I was referring to repairing his heart and spirit, bringing closure to the split as a result of reading the story, assuming he did read it. While I found no actual question, Laylab's concern seems to be how it affected him.
 

Trojina

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If i put myself in his shoes...no not his particualr shoes but in the shoes of anyone who I had a disagreement/split/upset with and they wanted to repair things...I'm just wondering how I'd react to receiving a story about it ?

I mean thats a question worth just asking people regardless of the question. I guess its down to individual temperament..if i were the one receiving the story I'd be miffed at the gesture because it seems so..... indirect and so calculated and public ..plus i couldn't be counted upon to know the story was meant to be about me anyway...I'd probably just be thinking 'why has she sent me this story' :rolleyes: Plus a story of how you saw it is all one way, all from your POV, what you told yourself about how it was. And being a story he can't respond by saying 'well actually no it wasn't like that I felt like this' He doesn't have the chance to say that because hes been fixed as a character in a plot....for public consumption too !


Did anyone ever get back with someone because they wrote a story about them ? (except in fiction, films etc) Seems to me if you can't talk to the person and just explain in person then chances of getting a good reaction via a published story are slim...but thats just me

I'd be interested to hear how others would react to a story. Would anyone get back with a friend or relative or ex solely because they received a story (that had been published) about them ?


What i don't understand is why not just send him the story...why publish it for everyone else to read and tell them its about him ? It makes the relationship very public...why would that be a good thing in his eyes ?
 
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meng

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Trojan, your point is well made, and I tend to be in agreement with the kind of response you mention. And, that is part of my answer, though I guess it must be hidden deeper than I realized.

What I meant , in more detail, was that he would feel stripped, but that the result of that could be closure for him, which in the bigger picture, improves upon his condition, 18. Starts tending his own basic needs, which is what 23 advises. Leaves and branches will fall, and the energy returns to the roots.
 

rosada

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Good question, Trojan.
For me I think it would depend on whether I wanted to get back with the person.
If I wanted to reconnect, reading a story that had me as a character would be a perfect excuse to call - even if the character were unflattering or even if I didn't agree with the spin.
On the other hand, if I weren't interested - and provided of course that I recognized myself in the story - I don't think I'd be offended especially since Laylab says her tale was a positive one. I'd probably just smile and think it kinda sweet.
Anyway, I don't think seeing a published story with me in it would in it's self turn me against the author, especially if the story were positive.
Rosada
 

Trojina

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Hey Meng just reread your first post...you're getting too subtle for me these days lol :bag:

Yes i see what you mean, I think, you are saying its good because it settles for him the right thing to do was split with L ....except you are saying that with more...discretion and sensitivity than I (and way less chance of backlash ;) ?)

Re reading L's question as you and Rosada were discussing, shes only asked 'if' he read the story...yet like you i was taking her to mean what was his reaction to it.


I think your take also reflects well the 2nd answer 42>53 how "will the story eventually affect his view of me"
 
M

meng

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I, personally, have mixed vibes (assuming we're on the track) about the story, per se, because I also respect that the best creative passion comes from expressing these difficult real life gains and losses. The artist must free themselves from concerns of hurting anyone's feelings, if they're going to create. I mean, I hate to say it, but most classic rock legends may not have enjoyed prolific careers if they let that kinda stuff get in the way. So in that sense I fully respect Layla expressing the depth of her experience through writing a story - whatever her motivation to have an affect on him may have been. I mean, it's easy to say you shouldn't try to write a song to get back at someone, but that simply doesn't hold up in reality. How 'bout "you're so vain, I'll bet you thought this song was about you", lol. And Keith and Mick often composed as though he was right in the girl's face. I'll bet more than one portrait by Picasso offended someone, chuckle.

So to stretch the 23 (s p r o i n g), it could apply to the need for the writer to strip those concerns, and just go on writing.
 
M

meng

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I think your take also reflects well the 2nd answer 42>53 how "will the story eventually affect his view of me"

Yeah, that could be.

But, who knows? Maybe he's even flattered by it.
 
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M

meng

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I was gonna do a thread on this but didn't mean it as a very serious idea; so I'll mention it here.

Sometimes the background info/context is so thin, it leaves so much to the imagination of who felt what, etc, without a way to verify before offering an interpretation.

Well, this morning I had this idea of the request being made in the form of a recording, so that they could speak more freely, and we could hear the person's emotion, because I think most would agree, Yi does often respond to our emotional state, even more so than to our question. But then, would that further improperly bias our interpretations by reading into their voice? And, would that be a necessarily bad thing?

Anyway, I hope Laylab doesn't mind me mentioning the thought in her thread.
 

Trojina

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I, personally, have mixed vibes (assuming we're on the track) about the story, per se, because I also respect that the best creative passion comes from expressing these difficult real life gains and losses. The artist must free themselves from concerns of hurting anyone's feelings, if they're going to create. I mean, I hate to say it, but most classic rock legends may not have enjoyed prolific careers if they let that kinda stuff get in the way. So in that sense I fully respect Layla expressing the depth of her experience through writing a story - whatever her motivation to have an affect on him may have been. I mean, it's easy to say you shouldn't try to write a song to get back at someone, but that simply doesn't hold up in reality. How 'bout "you're so vain, I'll bet you thought this song was about you", lol. And Keith and Mick often composed as though he was right in the girl's face. I'll bet more than one portrait by Picasso offended someone, chuckle.

So to stretch the 23 (s p r o i n g), it could apply to the need for the writer to strip those concerns, and just go on writing.


Oh no I wasn't saying that at all...I mean people can write whatever they want ...inspiration has to come from somewhere...but it not that you shouldn't write a song to get back at someone but that you can't get someone back by writing a song...or in this case you can't get them back by writing a story which seems to be the object.

well at least it seems unlikely to me one can get someone back by writing a story ...thats why I was asking what i did...ie 'did anyone ever get anyone back by writing a story about them'
 
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M

meng

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Yes, I went over the edge or top re that part of my statement... a leap to extremes. I didn't mean imply it in this specific case, nor that you meant that.

I've wrestled with that one a lot early on, so I know the dampening effect not wanting to hurt someone's feelings can have on creative writing. Of course one could always say, oh yes darling, that song was about you; or wasn't about you, as the case may be. :cool:
 

laylab

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Hi Everyone,

I appreciate your responses. I do see that what I posted leaves alot to the imagination, much unsaid. Allow me please, to explain.

The story was not written with the purpose of getting back with him at all. In fact, I have only seen him once since the end of 2007. We communicated after that but broke all communication a year ago.

I wrote the story in a moment of inspiration. In the past years, the relationship and our connection has taken it's toll on my soul. That might sound a bit dramatic, but please believe me when I say that I dreamed about him and carried him with me constantly.

One night I could not sleep and it was in that night that the story came to me. It is not obvious to strangers, to anyone who was not directly involved, that he is one of the characters in the story. I placed the characters in a different time, post WWII.

It is an overwhelmingly positive story. Ultimately, it is the love letter that I could never send.

I did not send the story to him, another person, a friend of his I believe did. I am waiting for confirmation of that.

Have you ever had a relationship that meant so much to you. I am sure everyone has. The goal is not to get back together. I wrote the story as a means of closure and of healing, self healing. It was only after I made the story public did I realize that perhaps the story and the truth it reveals could also be healing for him.

Sometimes we just want to mend fences. Some endings just don't feel right. In classical music, an instance in which the chord progression seems to build toward one harmonious, pleasing resolution but instead does something unexpected, something that seems a bit off, is called a Deceptive Cadence.

How many times have we thought that we have brought some situation or life lesson to a conclusive resolution, only to experience an unexpected twist that leaves us with the feeling of, “this isn’t quite right”? That's a real-life, "Deceptive Cadence".

This is the situation. Things did not end well. Because of the intensity of our connection we both reacted strongly..over reacted.

I want to move on now, knowing that not only have I healed myself but that he has closure too. Simply put: no hard feelings, forgiveness, understanding and compassion.
 
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maremaria

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Hi Laylab,

Not exactly an interpretation, but reading your last post and looking at Lise’s 23,and if it was my reading, I would interpret it as “it doesn’t matter whether he read it or not” You did what you had to do, and its really beautiful, imo. And your dream fits to your reading too.

Enjoy the new era :)
Maria
 
M

maremaria

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Thank you :)



Well, this morning I had this idea of the request being made in the form of a recording, so that they could speak more freely, and we could hear the person's emotion, because I think most would agree, Yi does often respond to our emotional state, even more so than to our question. But then, would that further improperly bias our interpretations by reading into their voice? And, would that be a necessarily bad thing?

Anyway, I hope Laylab doesn't mind me mentioning the thought in her thread.

This is an interesting subject. Better open a new thread. :)
In RC call meetings we have that and I found it very helpful .
So my question is , is it proper not to take into account that ?
 

rosada

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Dear Laylab,
I tried to respond to your private message - to say, "Yes, absolutely!" - but your message box was full.
Rosada
 

rosada

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Hey guys,
I just thought of an example of writing a song to win the lady. Paul Anka launched his recording career with "Diana" which he had written to impress a woman he barely knew from his church. The song went to number one and they did eventually go out on a date but I understand nothing came of it...
Rosada
 

Trojina

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Hey guys,
I just thought of an example of writing a song to win the lady. Paul Anka launched his recording career with "Diana" which he had written to impress a woman he barely knew from his church. The song went to number one and they did eventually go out on a date but I understand nothing came of it...
Rosada

Thats totally different..he was trying to woo her with a song..not to get her back after they'd already been together (not that apparently L wants to get back together)

composing a song or writing a poem for someone seems part of traditional courtship,particulary man to woman...even schoolboy to schoolgirl....
 
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lucia

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Flamenco is a perfect example: songs to woo, songs to tease, songs to say how heartbroken you are, songs to say you cheated on me....... trying hard to think of one that tries to get someone back........ maybe it'll come to me

My fave is Lagrimas Negras - black tears - you want to leave me and I don't want to suffer (sung by a man by the way) the best version is Bebo Valdez and Diego Cigala - Cuba meets Andalucian gypsy

Aunque tú me has echado en el abandono
aunque ya has muerto todas mis ilusiones,
en vez de maldecirte con justo encono
en mis sueños te colmo de bendiciones.

Sufro la inmensa pena de tu extravío
siento el dolor profundo de tu partida
y lloro sin que tú sepas que el llanto mío
tiene lágrimas negras como mi vida.

SUFRO LA INMENSA PENA DE TU EXTRAVIO
SIENTO EL DOLOR PROFUNDO DE TU PARTIDA
Y LLORO SIN QUE SEPAS QUE EL LLANTO MIO
TIENE LAGRIMAS NEGRAS COMO MI VIDA.

TU ME QUIERES DEJAR
YO NO QUIERO SUFRIR
CONTIGO ME VOY MI SANTA
AUNQUE ME CUESTE MORIR.

Pensándolo bien mi prieto
ya no me quiero morir
yo quiero seguir viviendo
yo quiero verte sufrir.

TU ME QUIERES DEJAR ...

Un jardinero de amor
siembra una flor y se vá,
otro viene y la cultiva
¿de cuál de los dos será?

TU ME QUIERES DEJAR ...

Lucia
 
M

maremaria

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This would cut out those people who currently post the same questions under 3 different names...although even then i guess they'd fake an accent just to max responses :rolleyes:..

:eek: this is a Problem !!!

But seriously, I just thought it’s an interesting subject to discuss.
I guess one has a better picture of the situation if to the writing we can add a voice or an image. All of them are languages and here we have the one that bears the less information.

In the RC call meetings, what I find interesting is that I can more easily be attuned to the matter is discussed. When I post something here , I know I’m censoring myself but in a chat, as Meng said , its less “formal” but not necessarily less serious.

Its like dancing with or without music.

See, in this thread Laylab’s intitial and later post. The last one had some “music” If I could hear her voice or see her talking I could hear better that music. Yi’s answer is in Laylab’s words . The more I can atune myself to her words, the more clear I can hear them. The same when I do a reading for myself. No dance, no answer.

I’m writing with a sleeping mind, so don’t know if what I say makes sense :eek:
 
M

meng

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Realistically, I think the voice option could be interesting, but it could also open up a Pandora's Box. Folks could read the voice rather than a more prosaic interpretation, which I don't think Hilary would favor.

I seem to be having some difficulty being clear today, or saying what I really mean. I just meant writing (or whatever means of creative expression) honestly, transparently, freely, without inhibition. If you're mad, write a mad song, if happy... and so forth. Wrote a song about it once, it was my opener. See if I can still remember it ...

I just wanna sing this tune
to let you know what I been doin
to make these days easier to live.

Though time's bad, so I been hearin
and I'm told I should be fearin
that I may not have this life to give.

So I sing
So I sing!

Sing out a glad song
sing out a sad song
sing to the stars above
Sing out a long song
then I sing out a short song
sing to the ones I love
to the ones I love.

So ya see it can be done
in fact it can be lottsa fun
livin your own life your own way.

Feast or famine, matters little
with a guitar or a fiddle
you can see tomorrow through today.

And So I sing
So I sing!

Sing out a glad song
sing out a sad song
sing to the stars above
Sing out a long song
then I sing out a short song
sing to the ones I love
to the ones I love.
 

lucia

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That's a lot more cheerful than Cigala - nice one Meng...

Don't know about audio postings - it would be a logistical nightmare for Hilary and I have to say I like written posts to be able to go over them again quickly and easily (and silently...)...

Also, as contributions to threads are just that and the querent should really go and digest them and find their own position; I am not sure knowing their emotional state with more than written words would be useful. Imagine all the nutters threatening to do things or being melodramtic as an aural equivilent of bumping a post....

And ........ on no I can imagine all kinds of things now...:D

Sidetracked thread sorry Laylab -

Lucia
 
M

meng

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Sometimes we just want to mend fences. Some endings just don't feel right. In classical music, an instance in which the chord progression seems to build toward one harmonious, pleasing resolution but instead does something unexpected, something that seems a bit off, is called a Deceptive Cadence.

How many times have we thought that we have brought some situation or life lesson to a conclusive resolution, only to experience an unexpected twist that leaves us with the feeling of, “this isn’t quite right”? That's a real-life, "Deceptive Cadence".

This is the situation. Things did not end well. Because of the intensity of our connection we both reacted strongly..over reacted.

I want to move on now, knowing that not only have I healed myself but that he has closure too. Simply put: no hard feelings, forgiveness, understanding and compassion.

That's an interesting analogy to music theory and human nature. Something ending on an off beat or unmatched or imperfect.

http://smu.edu/totw/cadences.htm

Deceptive Cadence

"When a V chord does not resolve up by fourth to a I chord, but instead resolves up by second to a vi, we call it a deceptive cadence (DC). Because a vi chord and a I chord have two notes in common. This cadence is not nearly as conclusive, or final, as an authentic cadence, and is never used to end a tonal work. However, it does provide a delightful "surprise" by resolving to a minor chord in major keys, and a major chord in minor keys. In a deceptive cadence, the vi chord is not used in first inversion. This is because of the similarity to the I chord - it will sound like a "wrong note I chord" rather than a vi chord."
 

laylab

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this thread turned out to be much more interesting than my original post. I like that..how you start with one thing but it get's re-shaped and re-directed into something much better!
 
M

meng

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Yes, now you've got me thinking about relative major/minor scales and chords, as they can apply to each hexagram.

basically:
major :)
minor :eek:
 

laylab

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If it's alright with everyong I would like to bring this back briefly to the original subject.

I looked at the hexagram again and asked another quesion about how he is feeling only to see that once again, the oracle reflected my own feelings and exprience back to me. AGAIN I got 23.1.3.4 this like leading to 30 Clinging Fire. OK, that is how *I* have felt and what *I* have experienced.

I notice that sometimes the oracle tells how someone else is feeling or perceiving something but not often and even then, it seems to be reflect more how *we* think they are *most likely* feeling based on our own world view and perspective of the situation. Most of the time though, it doesn't tell me how someone else thinks or feels. Instead it talks about the situation.

So, intead of asking how someone else feels or thinks I decided to ask

"What should I expect from him and our situation in the near future?"

I focused on opening my mind and just asked again "what should I expect?"


this is what I got..

24.2.4 Return/Turning Point with related 54

Any final insights now on how I can view this/find some peace and perhaps even have faith that he and I can eventually come to an understanding, resolve the past and have no bitter feelings?
 
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Trojina

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Why not just stick to the text of the Yi and you won't get misled by other peoples commentaries. What you printed above wasn't the text of the Yi it was someones ideas about it.

The commentaries on the changing lines above i think are misleading.

the Yi only says

24.2 Quiet return. Good fortune
24.4 Walking in the midst of others. One returns alone

Thats Wilhelms translations..others may vary but at least its slightly nearer the I Ching than the above persons commentaries.


I see the answer very much as return to your own path
 

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