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Thread: Are we influencing the future?

  1. #1

    Question Are we influencing the future?

    I am new to the Iching and I was reading many post and responses. I was wondering till what extent we are changing our fate sometimes in a negative way, when reading the Iching to understand events. An example,
    I asked the Iching about a potential reunion with an ex lover and I got 3.2, I searched the posts and found this
    http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/frien...ead.php?t=8855
    In this post the reply is clearly negative, when the Iching advises you "not to accept his offer as he is not the right man", it is emotionally influencing ourselves that means it is directly influencing our future. We then create in the now a future in our mind that it may have not been the best for us. The future does not exist, the future means possibilities, when we create in present that future with a so clear negative response to an event, arent we changing our life to worst and limiting our possibilities?

    I am somehow confused about the way to understand readings.
    In this case I asked the member that formulated the same question about a potential reunion, what happened with him/her and I am looking forward to receive a reply.
    Comments welcomed, I would like to understand more,
    Thank you

  2. #2

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    Haha, I've wondered this sort of thing before.
    But looking back, ususally a negative reading about something has reflected my feelings about it at the time. Maybe the yi only mirrors the scene inside you, rather than out there? But then, that's what we need help with... the unknown!

    But for example this morning I was feeling very negative about something and yi responded 12.4,5 > 23. The exact right reading for how I was feeling. I was in the mire, undermining myself, but with effort you can bring yourself out of the despondency - which I did by the afternoon. So I think 23 was saying - this situation is chopping away at you; that is its nature - so let it, but know that there's a time and place for everything and you cannot be destroyed by this, you have a seed of life always as long as you keep living (as it were). So after I'd beaten myself up about something, I was left with a fresh start (sort of). In any case it reflected that the influences acting upon me were negative, and that's that.

    I also tried what you have (would be interesting to hear the result!) I messaged someone who had the same reading as me about a similar situation. The answer was kind of inconclusive; although the reading had been 32, and things were still unsettled in the situation ie. continuing. I guess loose ends often don't get tied up...

    Looking back there have been a couple of times I've felt the yi has encouraged me to do something that ended up hurting me, but I do think your intent has the final say. Though it may delay or prompt you... I have looked back on previous readings before, and it's never jumped out at me that the yi has been wrong per se... I've gone ahead with whatever I had in mind, so looking back only blame myself rather than the yi... but I suppose it could be argued that the yi did point me in the wrong direction... though I guess that's where trust comes in, that it had to happen for you to 'grow'/move on from the situation such as by taking action... but if the yi gave 32 and you asked if you shoud jump off a cliff, well... I don't know how I'd react to that. Would probably be a bit offended by the yi... but that hasn't happened. And I think if you try to test it, asking if you should do something you know you shouldn't anyway, you'd most likely get a ticking off?

    I guess the yi depicts stories. 3.2 could be seen as an allegory, something to consider, rather than a direct answer - throwing it back at you to see where you (and your ex) fit into it. Perhaps for something as simple as, 'now is not the right time' or 'there will be other lovers to get through before the right guy' so it could be saying now is a time you meet others only to realise you want to be with your ex-lover, or the other way round. The reading you've linked is only Willowfox's interpretation. I don't think it's meant to be read black and white like that (though it may be easier if it were... but then, we're meant to think for ourselves). I would just say it's illustrating how your lover came and went (became your ex) and he may return to woo when the time is right, or the one 'meant' for you will come along. But I think it's a reminder not to settle for second bests in relationships...

    What resounds with your truth about your ex-lover? do you genuinely miss him, whatever the weather, or are you just feeling lonely at the mo?

    Maybe it is an allegory for when we find ourselves in difficulties we are more vulnerable and so accept help more readily. Ie if we are lonely we are more likely to entertain the thought of a relationship with someone we're not sure about, only to feel less lonely, which the yi is counselling against. I'd say the yi asks you to ask yourself about your motivations, your knowledge about the situation, rather than showing you the future....rather it suggests the attitude you should take maybe? More like a therapist than a predictor then I guess... or a revealer of aspects of the situation which are influencing you in the present, or a moral you should consider. But I don't think it paints people or situations in a wholy negative or positive light ever, although there may be more negative influence than positive on the situation, which may be telling you therefore, to stop in your tracks and not take action; clear your head first....But everything and everyone is subject to change...

    Eek. I think I've not been very coherent here. But I hope some of that addresses your issue... it's a toughie I think...

    Last edited by em ching; December 29th, 2010 at 02:43 PM.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by echos View Post
    I am new to the Iching and I was reading many post and responses. I was wondering till what extent we are changing our fate sometimes in a negative way, when reading the Iching to understand events. An example,
    I asked the Iching about a potential reunion with an ex lover and I got 3.2, I searched the posts and found this
    http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/frien...ead.php?t=8855
    In this post the reply is clearly negative, when the Iching advises you "not to accept his offer as he is not the right man", it is emotionally influencing ourselves that means it is directly influencing our future. We then create in the now a future in our mind that it may have not been the best for us. The future does not exist, the future means possibilities, when we create in present that future with a so clear negative response to an event, arent we changing our life to worst and limiting our possibilities?

    I am somehow confused about the way to understand readings.
    In this case I asked the member that formulated the same question about a potential reunion, what happened with him/her and I am looking forward to receive a reply.
    Comments welcomed, I would like to understand more,
    Thank you
    Think about the underlined. Is the I ching really advising this or is it someones take on what the i ching advises ? Don't confuse someones interpretation of the what the i ching advises with what the i ching is advising you in particular, in your situation.

    No hexagram or line has one final meaning for all time it will always need to apply to you and how you understand it. As far as I am concerned I can't tell you what your answer means (with 100% certainty) and neither can anyone else here...What we can offer is how we might understand if it was our reading given what you have told us about a situation. However there are readings that look pretty certain and others interpretations will naturally reflect this.


    But however much a person tells of the situation, so they can get assistance here, only they know how it is from the inside. Sometimes Yi makes a personal quip with the querant only they would get, like a private joke. Then theres just no point looking to all the usual meanings. Realise talking to Yi, consulting with Yi is a very personal conversation. It will talk to you personally, sometimes very literally making others commentarys redundant. I think if you look in the sticky about 'aha answers' at the top of shared readings you can see how literal it can be.

    theres lots of ways to interpret 3.2 one of which seems to be, according to Hilarys book anyway, that a union may take a helluva long time to come to fruition so you may want to consider if you want to go there as Em said.

    Anyway in the end whether you consult the i ching or not you have to take responsibility for your own decisions. If for example you were happy in a relationship and it was going well I hope you wouldn't let it go simply because you cast 3.2. Theres always the chance you've misunderstood an answer so it would be rather tragic for example to finish a potentially good relationship purely on the basis of what you see as a bad reading. For example 3.2 could refer to an offer within a relationship perhaps so it may not be the relationship itself to turn down but rather the terms of it ? I don't know but like Em said theres no black and white here..


    So I agree with your point about limiting possibilities. I think its a real danger for newbies and even oldies sometimes that getting what you perceive to be a negative answer about a relatively harmless idea can put you off even trying. I don't think the Yi is ever telling you what to do merely showing choices you already have, where you are, what might be good way or a not such a good way to walk your path...but it is in the end your path

    But I think in time your own intuition seems mostly to tally with what Yi tells you . Sometimes it seems to go to the direct opposite of what you thought but in time mostly it gets clear what it was about.

    So with your 3.2 you may wish to explore the potential of the relationship anyway and just keep in mind the reading...then maybe later you can tell us how it went. I guess I don't see the use of not even exploring it if you want to and theres no harm in doing so. As the saying goes 'people tend not to regret the things they did but things they didn't do'
    Last edited by Trojina; December 29th, 2010 at 04:38 PM.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by em ching View Post
    Looking back there have been a couple of times I've felt the yi has encouraged me to do something that ended up hurting me, but I do think your intent has the final say.
    I am brand new to I-Ching as well. I just wanted to comment on this. I wonder if perhaps the Yi was pointing you in a direction because you needed to grow in that area. Growth usually hurts... Just a thought...

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  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by em ching View Post
    Haha, I've wondered this sort of thing before.
    But looking back, ususally a negative reading about something has reflected my feelings about it at the time. Maybe the yi only mirrors the scene inside you, rather than out there? But then, that's what we need help with... the unknown!

    But for example this morning I was feeling very negative about something and yi responded 12.4,5 > 23. The exact right reading for how I was feeling. I was in the mire, undermining myself, but with effort you can bring yourself out of the despondency - which I did by the afternoon. So I think 23 was saying - this situation is chopping away at you; that is its nature - so let it, but know that there's a time and place for everything and you cannot be destroyed by this, you have a seed of life always as long as you keep living (as it were). So after I'd beaten myself up about something, I was left with a fresh start (sort of). In any case it reflected that the influences acting upon me were negative, and that's that.

    I also tried what you have (would be interesting to hear the result!) I messaged someone who had the same reading as me about a similar situation. The answer was kind of inconclusive; although the reading had been 32, and things were still unsettled in the situation ie. continuing. I guess loose ends often don't get tied up...

    Looking back there have been a couple of times I've felt the yi has encouraged me to do something that ended up hurting me, but I do think your intent has the final say. Though it may delay or prompt you... I have looked back on previous readings before, and it's never jumped out at me that the yi has been wrong per se... I've gone ahead with whatever I had in mind, so looking back only blame myself rather than the yi... but I suppose it could be argued that the yi did point me in the wrong direction... though I guess that's where trust comes in, that it had to happen for you to 'grow'/move on from the situation such as by taking action... but if the yi gave 32 and you asked if you shoud jump off a cliff, well... I don't know how I'd react to that. Would probably be a bit offended by the yi... but that hasn't happened. And I think if you try to test it, asking if you should do something you know you shouldn't anyway, you'd most likely get a ticking off?

    I guess the yi depicts stories. 3.2 could be seen as an allegory, something to consider, rather than a direct answer - throwing it back at you to see where you (and your ex) fit into it. Perhaps for something as simple as, 'now is not the right time' or 'there will be other lovers to get through before the right guy' so it could be saying now is a time you meet others only to realise you want to be with your ex-lover, or the other way round. The reading you've linked is only Willowfox's interpretation. I don't think it's meant to be read black and white like that (though it may be easier if it were... but then, we're meant to think for ourselves). I would just say it's illustrating how your lover came and went (became your ex) and he may return to woo when the time is right, or the one 'meant' for you will come along. But I think it's a reminder not to settle for second bests in relationships...

    What resounds with your truth about your ex-lover? do you genuinely miss him, whatever the weather, or are you just feeling lonely at the mo?

    Maybe it is an allegory for when we find ourselves in difficulties we are more vulnerable and so accept help more readily. Ie if we are lonely we are more likely to entertain the thought of a relationship with someone we're not sure about, only to feel less lonely, which the yi is counselling against. I'd say the yi asks you to ask yourself about your motivations, your knowledge about the situation, rather than showing you the future....rather it suggests the attitude you should take maybe? More like a therapist than a predictor then I guess... or a revealer of aspects of the situation which are influencing you in the present, or a moral you should consider. But I don't think it paints people or situations in a wholy negative or positive light ever, although there may be more negative influence than positive on the situation, which may be telling you therefore, to stop in your tracks and not take action; clear your head first....But everything and everyone is subject to change...

    Eek. I think I've not been very coherent here. But I hope some of that addresses your issue... it's a toughie I think...

    Thank you for your extended reply! I am yes confused.It is probably because I do believe we are what we think and we get what we visualize in thoughts and normally every negative thought we feel it, think it with such a depth that we make it become a reality. If I want to start a company but the Iching tell me, no it is not right to do it even if I would keep building my company , internally , emotionally I will already be influenced by the IChing thought that it is not the right thing to do and this is what confuses me in regard to interpreting.
    I also wonder if we are really capable to interpret our own readings, because wanting or no, at least we fully control our emotions..the fear or the wish we have for something, will shadow with biases what we read/interpret.

  7. #6

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by trojan View Post
    Think about the underlined. Is the I ching really advising this or is it someones take on what the i ching advises ? Don't confuse someones interpretation of the what the i ching advises with what the i ching is advising you in particular, in your situation.

    No hexagram or line has one final meaning for all time it will always need to apply to you and how you understand it. As far as I am concerned I can't tell you what your answer means (with 100% certainty) and neither can anyone else here...What we can offer is how we might understand if it was our reading given what you have told us about a situation. However there are readings that look pretty certain and others interpretations will naturally reflect this.


    But however much a person tells of the situation, so they can get assistance here, only they know how it is from the inside. Sometimes Yi makes a personal quip with the querant only they would get, like a private joke. Then theres just no point looking to all the usual meanings. Realise talking to Yi, consulting with Yi is a very personal conversation. It will talk to you personally, sometimes very literally making others commentarys redundant. I think if you look in the sticky about 'aha answers' at the top of shared readings you can see how literal it can be.

    theres lots of ways to interpret 3.2 one of which seems to be, according to Hilarys book anyway, that a union may take a helluva long time to come to fruition so you may want to consider if you want to go there as Em said.

    Anyway in the end whether you consult the i ching or not you have to take responsibility for your own decisions. If for example you were happy in a relationship and it was going well I hope you wouldn't let it go simply because you cast 3.2. Theres always the chance you've misunderstood an answer so it would be rather tragic for example to finish a potentially good relationship purely on the basis of what you see as a bad reading. For example 3.2 could refer to an offer within a relationship perhaps so it may not be the relationship itself to turn down but rather the terms of it ? I don't know but like Em said theres no black and white here..


    So I agree with your point about limiting possibilities. I think its a real danger for newbies and even oldies sometimes that getting what you perceive to be a negative answer about a relatively harmless idea can put you off even trying. I don't think the Yi is ever telling you what to do merely showing choices you already have, where you are, what might be good way or a not such a good way to walk your path...but it is in the end your path

    But I think in time your own intuition seems mostly to tally with what Yi tells you . Sometimes it seems to go to the direct opposite of what you thought but in time mostly it gets clear what it was about.

    So with your 3.2 you may wish to explore the potential of the relationship anyway and just keep in mind the reading...then maybe later you can tell us how it went. I guess I don't see the use of not even exploring it if you want to and theres no harm in doing so. As the saying goes 'people tend not to regret the things they did but things they didn't do'
    Thank you for your reply. In regard to the specific reading I did it again two times (same question) , just to get more clear and I got 19 no changing lines twice . I will be trying to interpret an then relating to what it is happening but without getting influenced by the Iching reply.

    What you write its so right, but in this case the whole divinatory process should never presume to give us concrete answers, no positive no negative. Then the whole process should be more of addressing us to discover weaknesses as they exist in everything and in ourselves. I would very much like to read and learn how was used during the Tang dinasty and Confucius times, maybe that would help me to understand it more.
    thank you again

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    em ching (December 30th, 2010)

  9. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by echos View Post
    I was wondering till what extent we are changing our fate sometimes in a negative way, when reading the Iching to understand events.
    Every interaction we take place in has the possibility of changing our fate. We are influenced by the radio, by books, by what a talking head on television tell us. If the government says the Vitamin E is no good for the skin, millions of people will believe it instantly and stop using it.

    But there are certain influences that are trusted. If you are a discriminating person, there are only a few such influences. Part of growing up is learning to be discriminating in just this manner, learning what influences to accept and which to quietly ignore.

    My experience of Yi is that of a trusted advisor. Not a fortuneteller who pretends to see the future, but an advisor who looks over the situation and gives solid advice that helps you cope. When you are a young man, you might turn to a relative who is mature and experienced to help you cope; thus I refer to Yi as "Uncle Yi."

    It is true that my Uncle Yi sometimes says startling things that turn out to be true. And other times it is true that I don't understand Uncle's e reading and never go back to it. But on the whole, he is an excellent advisor, and some understanding inside me often recognizes the usefulness and relevance of what he has to say.

    In seeking out and getting advice from my Uncle, I would not say that Uncle influenced me, but rather that Uncle's advice made sense to me, clarified something I already knew and gave me a way of seeing the situation. It is our inner sense of the world, and our connection to it, that Yi attempts to speak to.

    "Going to the fortune teller's was just as good as going to the opera, and the cost scarcely a trifle more - ergo, I will disguise myself and go again, one of these days, when other amusements fail." (Mark Twain)

    Tiger

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  11. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerintheboat View Post
    Every interaction we take place in has the possibility of changing our fate. We are influenced by the radio, by books, by what a talking head on television tell us. If the government says the Vitamin E is no good for the skin, millions of people will believe it instantly and stop using it.

    But there are certain influences that are trusted. If you are a discriminating person, there are only a few such influences. Part of growing up is learning to be discriminating in just this manner, learning what influences to accept and which to quietly ignore.

    My experience of Yi is that of a trusted advisor. Not a fortuneteller who pretends to see the future, but an advisor who looks over the situation and gives solid advice that helps you cope. When you are a young man, you might turn to a relative who is mature and experienced to help you cope; thus I refer to Yi as "Uncle Yi."

    It is true that my Uncle Yi sometimes says startling things that turn out to be true. And other times it is true that I don't understand Uncle's e reading and never go back to it. But on the whole, he is an excellent advisor, and some understanding inside me often recognizes the usefulness and relevance of what he has to say.

    In seeking out and getting advice from my Uncle, I would not say that Uncle influenced me, but rather that Uncle's advice made sense to me, clarified something I already knew and gave me a way of seeing the situation. It is our inner sense of the world, and our connection to it, that Yi attempts to speak to.

    "Going to the fortune teller's was just as good as going to the opera, and the cost scarcely a trifle more - ergo, I will disguise myself and go again, one of these days, when other amusements fail." (Mark Twain)

    Tiger


    Thank you for your post, all comments are helping me to get more clear.
    I do believe that independently of how discerning or self confident we are, everything we see, hear and we are told influences us.It is how our senses work, to register everything.
    I do believe advises even from the best intentioned of person can be harming because they will also be biased with that person personal attitude, belief, prejudices, fears and own opinion about life , himself and us, nothing of which it is maybe what its best to us, because it is the true that person lives not necessarily ours.
    I do believe we influence the reading we get with our own fears or wishes to read what we want to read, same than an advisor or reader will, at least he is not fully dettached from his own prejudices, biases, perceptions. Then he will read to us only what he can see with all these boundaries of his own belief.
    I believe we become our best readers when we fully understand the Iching. I do believe the only trusted reader is that reader that as I said before make it to fully dettach his "I am" from the reading.
    I do believe that emotionally we all without exceptions are influenced with absolutely everything, it is how our brains are made, deep inside ourselves everything is registered.
    But I am open to change what I believe,that is why I want to learn, otherwise I would live with boundaries.

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    ilemacedonia (January 1st, 2011)

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    as crazy as it sounds i believe that future influence us as well. a closed system: we influence the future and the future influence us back
    Be not sad.
    Be like the sun at midday.
    tarot

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    Quote Originally Posted by echos View Post
    I also wonder if we are really capable to interpret our own readings, because wanting or no, at least we fully control our emotions..the fear or the wish we have for something, will shadow with biases what we read/interpret.

    Variations in what people write can send your mind in wildly different directions. Give yourself time to live the lines ...

    The situation in line 3.2 is that someone backed off from a relationship. But after 10 years -- 10 years meaning a long time -- the person who backed off will find a satisfactory union. The delay was a good thing. The person who withdrew had good reason to do so.

    When Yi gives you hex 19 unchanging, it is saying: "Very good question, Echos. Ask more questions about that subject."

    I agree with everything Tiger posted above. If you give it the time it requires, trust will develop ... You will see for yourself how it works.

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