Divination Alone

[turtlfur]

Hello Friends-

Its been a while since I've been on this forum but I am not new to the Yijing conversation. I have been working with Yijing for over 15 years and lately I have been deeply questioning some fundamental aspects of my work with the classic of change.

The question is: IS it alright to consult the oracle alone?

I have always done this up until recently, when a teacher of mine based in Taiwan whom I deeply respect expressed strongly that it is necessary to work with another person when one is consulting the Changes. This person holds the space and facilitates smooth communication between you and the Yi spirits. It is the rule of three (heaven, earth, human....jing qi, shen, etc).

His reasoning is that if one consults alone, the result may be an echo chamber for your own ego mind and you may not have the clarity to hear what the Yi is really telling you. I feel that he has a very valid point and because I respect him as my Laoshi I have been following his advice and yet I feel that my study of and work with the Changes has been hampered as a result.

I guess I am curious as to your feedback on this issue.

Looking forward to a lively debate!

turtl.

[sooo]

Howdy, Turtlfur.

My answer doesn't intend to be definitive practice. I'm allergic to static rules of any kind, whether from a respected friend or teacher, or from a book. My subjective experience with the Yi is always unpredictable, at least as much so as my willingness to meet it fluidly.

[chingching]

I will say that to make the effort to be in the best state of mind when consulting yi can be helpful in of itself as a way of self mastery. And then obviously the effect of a clear yi reading has its own benefits.

I actually tend to be more of an echo chamber for another person's ego if I involve someone else. I'm clearer on my own.

[bradford]

The Yi is definitely a "blind man and the elephant" problem. Getting it surrounded is hardest to do alone. It's certainly good to have feedback and the best books at the start. It's a little easier with a group of people who are grounded in the more serious studies as they are more inclined at least to speak similar languages. When you get a group that's been off on their own individual directions all their lives, channeling and what not, there are a lot more points of view but a lot less specificity to the readings..

[sooo]

Buy someone else's chit or roll your own, whatever buzzes that helpful part of your brain, where answers comes from.

But, I think anyone, who calls themselves teacher, sensei, master, etc. who creates dependency upon themselves for a follower's illumination, ought to go and seek help for themselves.

[bradford]

But, I think anyone, who calls themselves teacher, sensei, master, etc. who creates dependency upon themselves for a follower's illumination, ought to go and seek help for themselves.

Second that. I'd suggest never using less than your three best books.

[el_2]

I'll try to express this as best as I can.

It is something I've puzzled over a lot lately.

The Yi's answers are often about the querent's attitudes or beliefs. They often point to changes to those attitudes or beliefs that the querent has to make. Even in the cases when the question is not about beliefs or attitudes, there are presumptions you have to shed. Or, when you ask "what should I do", an internal change may be necessary in order to act as the Yi advises. I mean, even when you have a pretty good understanding of what the Yi is advising you, it is often hard to put the advice into practice, to turn it into reality. Because, for instance, it may be required of you to act strong and confident while you may be feeling anything but.

What I mean is that I often (though not always) find that I understand the answer, I agree with it, I believe or have faith in the Yi - but to put the advice into practice... that's an entirely different matter, not as straightforward. I have to be changed somehow so that the idea is not a mere intellectual exercise. I hope you people are getting my point.

So, how do I change? Prescriptions don't simply translate into practice.

I haven't found the answer to this question (perhaps I should ask the Yi). However, I think or hope that by my ongoing interaction with the Yi and the effort I personally make to delve into the answer and the different ways it may be interpreted, the personal effort to really understand and figure out how to translate advice into practice - I think or hope that this personal effort is what will bring about the necessary change in me.

And I have to do it by myself. Sure I need to look at different translations, it helps to look up the hexagram index here - but if I were to be doing it with a teacher, an intermediary of some kind, I would to some extent be spoonfed. I'd miss the whole process I described above.

So, I guess, adopting either approach, you win something but you also miss something. I prefer to consult by myself.

el_2

[el_2]

To put it differently:

If the answer is something along the lines of "the chances for this relationship are pretty slim", "this friendship is over", "a law suit won't get you anything", "this career choice is counterproductive", "you won't win the lottery no matter how many lottery tickets you buy", etc., it is clear and you simply have to make a decision to follow the advice or not.

But if the answer is something like "have faith", "be confident", "shed your negative feelings", "work on your self", 41.5, etc., it is not as straightforward.

Guess I may have a problem with the positive.

[chingching]

Because, for instance, it may be required of you to act strong and confident while you may be feeling anything but.

I meditate on the reading, repeat things that had immediate resonance in my head and then I find a moment opens up, an opportunity, an omen, and at that point the words usually sound out in my head as if on loud speaker and I think oh right this is when I can apply this, I can react in this way instead of how I usually react. And if the situation in question involves other people dont worry, people dont mind if you react as usual first but then correct and say "Oh sorry actually I didnt mean that, I mean this..' (for example). If you are sincere most peeps will disregard your first reaction and relate to the second one. (I wish I had better words for what I'm trying to say.)

Guess I may have a problem with the positive.

Especially something like 'have faith', for when you have lost all faith. Hilary's blog post on the well is this situation exactly.

Not everything is black and white, those senarios are easier...no ground for harvest...no use continuing with that way...easy, dont do it.

You can always act as the third person yourself too. Ask the part of yourself what is going on for it, use your own innate object functions to sit across from you and say what is upsetting you? Just like how Jo simpson tells of his psychological processes to survive in 'touching the void' there are parts of your pysche to draw on for help and I suppose the yi reading when 'positive', as you say, is giving you a road map to these.

[turtlfur]

Thank you all so much for your input. One of the aspects of my teacher's concerns that particularly resonates with me is that when you consult the Yi on your own, it is a duality rather than a trinity. His point was that we need three layers- heaven earth human being, jing qi shen, sun moon stars, etc. The ancient Chinese affinity for trinity is part of the picture.

So we consult the Yi with another person to get them to hold the "earth" while we the "human" connect with "heaven" the Yi.

Wondering what people think about this aspect.
turtl