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Thread: Fate vs. Chance

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    Default Fate vs. Chance

    The Yi references to fate. Is it fate as in Destiny (per-determined) or is it fate through chance?

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    Fate: the will or principle or determining cause by which things in general are believed to come to be as they are or events to happen as they do : destiny


    Hmmm, no. Not in that sense. IMO, the Yi can show you the natural tendencies and pathways by which events come to happen, yes. However, the Yi refers to the kind of fate that's malleable, directed, non-deterministic. Consulting the Yijing isn't a passive affair of happiness or despair, post readings. It is an opportunity to navigate toward your goals.

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    Wihelm uses the word "fate" in his translation. When he uses the word "fate", it seems like he is saying something that is predetermined. Already decided. Any ideas why he uses the word "fate" in his translations?

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    Wilhelm/Baynes uses the word "fate" 23 times in his translated "work," and all in his commentaries to the actual text of the hexagrams. It does not appear as a concept in the bare Chinese text of the Zhouyi. Remember that in his commentaries he's interpreting the text in broad terms and tries to name a concept that would look familiar, first to himself and then to us, his readers in the West. If you care to look for those instances you will notice that, in general, he's not trying to tell the reader that "fate" is immutable (even though he seems to consider 12 the one exception that makes my rule). Look for the word in 15 and 18, for example. In any case, I consider his a poor choice of a word to describe "tendencies towards future events".

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    I reread 12, 15, and 18. In 18 he says"...it accords with the possibilities of the time." I maybe taking this out of context, wouldn't that be the same idea as "chance". I have been reading about other religions as well as an interest in quantum physics, philosophy etc. I am searching for an answer, is life just "chance" or is there some "fate" involved. I believe that if there is really "fate" as you defined, then there must some form of higher intelligence. Maybe? A question to myself, why is this important to me? I don't know. I think discovering the I Ching made a spark several years ago.

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    This is all good to think about. Sparks of curiousity are flying! The question really is here, How much do my actions affect my future? I think like Sparhawk said in the case of the Yijing, fate is malleable. Yi will tell you the nature of an action in general. It will say, with these conditions, if you CHOOSE to act this way, this will naturally follow. It indicates the nature of change in the universe, but does not indicate if you will personally follow them.

    There can be a seperate question based on your very own beliefs of how the universe works. Then it becomes pretty personal. Do you feel there is a "higher intelligence" that controls? This question is more broadly based and the answer is all up to you .

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    I'm sure you are aware, at least I hope you do, that the kind of answer you are looking for will not be found in this or any other forum. Mind you, you will receive a lot more opinions than you ever expected but no "answers". Those reside within.

    Now,

    Quote Originally Posted by newmoon View Post
    I reread 12, 15, and 18. In 18 he says"...it accords with the possibilities of the time." I maybe taking this out of context, wouldn't that be the same idea as "chance". I have been reading about other religions as well as an interest in quantum physics, philosophy etc. I am searching for an answer, is life just "chance" or is there some "fate" involved. I believe that if there is really "fate" as you defined, then there must some form of higher intelligence. Maybe? A question to myself, why is this important to me? I don't know. I think discovering the I Ching made a spark several years ago.
    That definition of "fate" came from the Merriam-Webster. Nothing better than a standard definition of a term to start a discussion that can end up fuzzy.

    Not to repeat myself (short on time lately...) I will leave you with a thread I started almost two of years ago that will explain a little where I stand on this.
    I do not pretend to be correct but it is what makes sense to me. Those that have access to the Reading Circle can look for an even older thread I started called "Haphazardness and Consequences".

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    Quote Originally Posted by newmoon View Post
    I reread 12, 15, and 18. In 18 he says"...it accords with the possibilities of the time." I maybe taking this out of context, wouldn't that be the same idea as "chance". I have been reading about other religions as well as an interest in quantum physics, philosophy etc. I am searching for an answer, is life just "chance" or is there some "fate" involved. I believe that if there is really "fate" as you defined, then there must some form of higher intelligence. Maybe? A question to myself, why is this important to me? I don't know. I think discovering the I Ching made a spark several years ago.
    Opinions and theories, yes, some reenforced with sound logic and even some with hard evidence. But I'm leery of any source which is absolutely certain of 'how it is.' Since you're interested in the teeny tiny quantum world, you may have noticed that those on the cutting edge of this relatively new science have little to offer but a blank stare into space when asked to explain consciousness, and the answers they are more confident in providing seem to be more as spoken by a small child pointing to elephant shaped clouds passing by than by a Newtonian scholar, and by now, even the classic scientific minds must resist the urge to spout with certainty the traditional explanation of gravity. It seems scientific certainty is increasingly being replaced with potentials, and potentials open the way to more solid facts and solutions, which open the way to more potentials.

    I think, at least from a subjective level, it's safe to say that today, here where "I" am, it's unlikely that anything I think or do can change the weather, move these mountains, or turn the desert into a tropical island. Those are, as far as I yet know, fixed circumstances, my fate, which I have to work with. However, nothing says I can't change my subjective reality of this by hoping on a plane to Hawaii. I do have the ability to shape the destiny of my day in several ways. In a sense, I can change them even by how I think, and it is this ability that the IC, as an oracle, makes such a wonderful guide in shaping fate or destiny. Change how we think, and we do change our fate.

    Now, I think the IC does put forth the idea that each of us does have a potential fate: a way of being and becoming our highest potential. However, that great potential may not always mean that we get to enjoy the benefits of being a lesser being, not living to our full potential. Some things need to be sacrificed, and some of those things may be things which we hold dearly to. It's really up to the individual to choose our path and its consequences, which one can say, seals our fate.

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    I noticed a typo in my last post:
    nothing says I can't change my subjective reality of this by hoping on a plane to Hawaii
    , hoping rather than hopping, but decided I like hoping better than hopping in this context. It also costs less. Now where did I store that beach chair?

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    Sparhark/Luis, I read your take in 'Haphazardness and Consequences' and I like your cosmic cello idea, as well as non-vaccum readings. Also really enjoyed the quote about Ideas, Images and Words. Thanks for the link, it really makes ya think.

    In all of the formulating and untangling I have going on about this topic, I might be listening to the same cosmic CD as you, but on a different track The above does ring true to me. Thing is, I think everything is like a string being plucked, it's vibrations affecting everything, the butterfly affect (you might too). As a metaphor to use, and because I think a lot about people's emotions, just in general I contemplate this aspect of life a lot. I think emotions really connect us and seperate us in this ebb and flow way depending on how much we share/hide. Just like how we are not in a vaccum with Yijing readings, we are not in a vaccum with anything else. When an emotion is experienced, it not only plucks a string within, but it sends vibrations out. The vibrations out are also the reason for the emotion in the first place. I guess you could say that emotions are chemical effects. These effects can be coming from a source inside, like the mind, or they can be from an outside environment, but it is always because of something else. It is the result of not being in a vaccum that we have emotions. The emotions are the expression of everything vibrating and bouncing off of everything. Emotions could also very well be, IMO, the connective tissue between people and experiences. I look at our time here as a time to follow my path, the best one I can, and in that time share my experience of my path with those I come in contact with. Of course not everyone, but to some. I find this sharing to be a big part of the experience of life since we are not in the vaccum. We are going to be effected by things outside of 'ourselves' (quotes for the illusion that we are seperate) regardless of communicating it or not. Sometimes, I do think it is very important, even crucial, that we keep things to ourselves. Sometimes that is the only way to truely understand things the way that would work best for the cosmos. But a lot of the time, IMO, it is crucial to share on the path. I suppose I do not mind being effected by other's opinions. I don't mind throwing my own out there either. Whether it be an emotion (just my little example), or a Yijing reading, I find on numerous occasions the need to share and discuss and learn and formulate ideas. Kind of like, "I never would have thought of that had you not pointed out your own experience". This quote works with either emotions or Yijing. There is a whole orchestra going on all of the time, not just one string (I know you know this ). All of the different instruments, and their strings, can effect us. I guess my point is I am not seeing why it could be beneficial to cut myself off from this experience. Usually I go back and edit myself but I have to get somewhere else. Sorry this is so run-on like and probably the misuse of effect and affect. I always screw those up. (seems on subject tho!) ok bye

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