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Does 21 mostly imply self discipline?

meng

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The title says it. It has seemed to play out in my experience with 21, and to some degree with 55 as well, that first and foremost, the advice of 21 refers to ones own actions toward ones own inclinations, rather than to one who we may see as an offender against us. What say you?

An extension of this by way of example is 51.6 to 21. Feel free to comment also on 51.6 within this same context. Does this imply a fault of the antagonistic neighbor or of the one whose feathers get ruffled by the provocation?
 

heylise

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When I get 21, my first reaction is the I myself have to bite through something. Urging me to get up and act!

I did get 51.6 once when I was very worried about something, and it was as if Yi told me not to make a fuss but to remember what I knew about situations like the one I was so worried about. To use my experience or what I had heard from others to solve it. The fanyao has this cangue over the ears. So I stopped worrying and instead tried to find out what I could do, what might go wrong, and it turned out that it was not at all difficult to make sure that everything went fine.
Listening to my wiser self, or remember what I had seen happening to others and how they did or didn't solve it. To 'see' the shock before it hits you, or see what happens when it hits someone else, and learn from that.
 

meng

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When I get 21, my first reaction is the I myself have to bite through something. Urging me to get up and act!

I appreciate your observations of 51.6.

Re 21, has the biting through, as applied to yourself, ever been a disciplinary measure not to act, as though saying "get over it", or bite through your own urge to act?
 

mryou1

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I agree with heylise that it's about getting up and acting. The way I see hexagram 21 is that it's a situation in which negativity and injustice persist all around and the justice to change the current state is being bottled up within, perhaps due to fear.

If you take the hexagram to mean "discipline yourself not to act from a place of good" rather than "discipline yourself to act out of a place of good", it's the fear talkin! Hexagram 21 is a very stagnant hexagram from my pov, that can only be changed through the natural inclination to "fix" it. However, since your state is that of negativity, you could be acting from that instead of the true good inside. In which case, maybe it would be about biting through your own urge to act... but I doubt it.
 

meng

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Mryou, thanks for your input.

In LiSe's example of 51.6, she interpreted 51.6 as saying not to make a fuss about it. 51.6 changes to 21. For 21 to mean get up and act is a contradiction to not making a fuss. The fan yao of 51.6 (21.6) would unquestionably be the outcome of taking direct punitive action against the offender. Hence the dilemma, besides being a general philosophical question.
 

meng

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Surely there must be more thoughts and experiences with 21 to share in this regard of 21 as self-discipline involving restraint.

Fwiw, I asked Yi to kindly reword the advice for this particular situation and received 52.4-56, which affirms my initial impression of self disciple and restraint from action. Or at least a different kind of action, such as a more humbling, less confrontation one, involving inner satisfaction of a different sort, definitively more Zen, less macho. But it's all still under contemplation.
 

meng

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coincidence?

A particularly tricky situation could occur at work. If you aren't careful, you could lose your cool. Make a concerted effort to keep your wits about you, Gemini. It could be that a colleague is baiting you, but that's no reason to take it. Keep to yourself as much as possible today. Close your office door. At home, go to bed early. Relax with a good book. All will be calmer tomorrow.
 

meng

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Well, I'm convinced that 21 very often does refer to this kind of self discipline and thoughtful restraint. I thought so before, and am more resolved now.
 

meng

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Aaaaand one more for good measure about the particular matter at hand: 14.3-38

Have a nice weekend, and for Greek Orthodox, a Joyous Easter.
 

rodaki

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thanks for Easter wishes - I hope everyone had a fine Easter holiday!


I was thinking of 21 as other than its 'actively enforcing the law' aspect . . perhaps due to temperament I was never much into the sharper sides of 21 - not that they often aren't very valuable. Yet, even looking at 21's lines (especially lines like 1, 4 & 5), it strikes me how emphasis is always placed on being mindful and lenient . . So what I'm seeing now, is that 21's 'justice' could either be punitive, or rehabilitating in nature . . In the face of obstacles that demand direct action, one can either direct the mind first on who is the culprit/what carries blame, or, towards how things can be eased back to harmony and balance, how to restore natural flow . . in that sense, I could easily see self-discipline as a way to direct attention from one's self as the wrong/offended one, towards a different, maybe wider, or even a tad a-moral view of things . .


There is a thread floating somewhere in SR about an accident my father had while swimming, which Yi had foreseen in a 1>21 reading: a big hook had, by a wrong move, latched itself deep in his leg and the only way to pull it out without damaging any muscles or nerves, in the middle of the night, in the deserted island we were moored, was to push it through his flesh till its sharp edge pierced out of the skin, where he cut its head off and pulled the rest of it out . . that for me, was probably the most powerful experience I had with 21 and it has reinforced my idea of 21 as a means to restore the flow than punish the offender

I could also see the 'shamanistic' side of 21 that Lise mentions in her site, more as being close to the 'restoring' rather the 'chastising' aspect of the hexagram meanings . . as you had mentioned in another thread, the shaman does not possess the power to enforce the law, but becomes possessed by the power of law to restore nature . . Quite possibly, in 51.6 (highest point of thunder, where what is generated deep at the roots creates radiant effects) one who can hold to a strong and solid centre, learns how energy strikes through what finds in its way and how they can restore it

52.4 and 14.3 I could again more easily perceive as parts of that same process of enabling balance instead of enforcing justice . .
 

meng

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There is a thread floating somewhere in SR about an accident my father had while swimming, which Yi had foreseen in a 1>21 reading: a big hook had, by a wrong move, latched itself deep in his leg and the only way to pull it out without damaging any muscles or nerves, in the middle of the night, in the deserted island we were moored, was to push it through his flesh till its sharp edge pierced out of the skin, where he cut its head off and pulled the rest of it out . . that for me, was probably the most powerful experience I had with 21 and it has reinforced my idea of 21 as a means to restore the flow than punish the offender

Your father's hook removal method took self discipline and intelligence, as well as patience. He could have just ripped the hook out against the direction of the barb, and inflicted far worse damage. That is exactly the spirit of my question. Intelligence makes an ideal assistant to removing an obstruction along the lines of least resistance.
 

rodaki

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yes, it was very much the wiser thing to do at the time, although when he said what he was going to do, I kinda looked at him as if he was mad - it took a lot of calm and intense focus to go thru with it.

Other times I've seen 21 come up had to do with medicine of some kind, which again speaks of having an inner order restored and 21.1 often comes up as an admonition to guard one's self instead of punishing this or other.21 is one of these hexagrams whose meaning is mostly taken as rather unambiguous, so it's intriguing to look into other sides of it
 

heylise

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Re 21, has the biting through, as applied to yourself, ever been a disciplinary measure not to act, as though saying "get over it", or bite through your own urge to act?
In LiSe's example of 51.6, she interpreted 51.6 as saying not to make a fuss about it. 51.6 changes to 21. For 21 to mean get up and act is a contradiction to not making a fuss. The fan yao of 51.6 (21.6) would unquestionably be the outcome of taking direct punitive action against the offender. Hence the dilemma, besides being a general philosophical question.
Well, I'm convinced that 21 very often does refer to this kind of self discipline and thoughtful restraint. I thought so before, and am more resolved now.
When you make a fuss about something, your abilities to act in a good way are very much diminished. So bite through your panic or anger (or the urge to act), the skin, and find your inner strong core. Yes, biting through something of yourself, disciplining yourself, I see that very much as a meaning of 21.
 

meng

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When you make a fuss about something, your abilities to act in a good way are very much diminished. So bite through your panic or anger (or the urge to act), the skin, and find your inner strong core. Yes, biting through something of yourself, disciplining yourself, I see that very much as a meaning of 21.

badda bing badda boom (which in Italian American means exactly!) :)
 

charly

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... 21 is one of these hexagrams whose meaning is mostly taken as rather unambiguous, so it's intriguing to look into other sides of it
Dear Dora:

I'm just arrived at work. let me read the thread.

Meanwhile:

H.21 is a CARNIVORE hex, it speaks of our own tendency to CARNAL EXCESS, and how to manage it. SELFDISCIPLINE is, of course, a GOOD IDEA, how to be tolerant with our own nature without becoming a CANNIBAL.

In H.21 there are more than one dish with different sorts of MEAT (or FLESH!)in lines 2, 3, 4 and 5. The sentence adviced us: PREFERABLE USE A GRILL, maybe don't eat the meat raw, but in barbecue.

H.21: [CRUNCH, CRUNCH!]

BITTING [AND] CRACKING CELEBRATION.
Crunch feast.

PROFITABLE TO USE [A] JAIL.
Preferable to use a grill.

[No more comments]
Stop.

If we add the TOE of line 1 and the EAR of line 6, all the lines have MEAT/FLESH.

Fourth lines out of six are NO WRONG. One is LUCKY and one is UNFORTUNATE, although irremediable, fated.

To be continued ...


all the best,


Charly
 

bradford

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It mostly implies doing what needs to be done.
 

charly

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track_pattern_matching_carnivores72.jpg

Source: http://www.exploringnature.org/db/detail.php?dbID=110&detID=2568

What is the MAIN CARNIVoRE that in not here?

Charly

P.D.:
answer: of course, ourselves!
Ch.
 
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charly

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image058.jpg


Some people don't like CANGUES, neither the Changes, I believe.

Japanese name: Sekishôgun Sekiyû (石將軍石勇)
Chinese name: Shi Yong
Scene: Sekishôgun Sekiyû throwing a broken cangue (wooden punishment yoke) at foe
Robinson: S47.19

sOURCE:
http://www.kuniyoshiproject.com/108 Heroes of the Popular Suikoden (chuban).htm

I don't know why the character JIAO was translated CANGUE, which is JIA.
Rutt says nothing about it. He only says that HE means to RECEIVE A LOAD.

I wonder why not to translate JIAO as CONJUGAL BURDEN instead of CANGUE, given the associations of JIAO with INTERCOURSE.

Yours,


Charly
 

Trojina

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21 to me seems always to have to do with getting to the truth of a matter. Sometimes one can find the truth though ease and beauty (22) but sometimes a cutting edge is needed to reveal whats underneath

Its a tough job when applied to the self....its arduous because one must go beneath the surface, must bite through. I don't think of it as straight self discipline as in "I won't eat that cake" I feel thats more of a hex 60 or hex 7 ? I think theres some sleuthing to be done in 21, some self analysis. That needs a cutting edge and is painful.....especially if chewing old meat and finding bullets. In that instance one may be dealing with old patterns one finds hard to access...though of course that goes into hex 18 territory
 
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meng

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This thread has been interesting and helpful. All mentioned elements of biting through have been required to resolve the problem, from self disciple and restraint, to cutting through the bull****, to severing ties with antagonists and sympathizers of the antagonist, to seeking and establishing ties with new cooperative, team working people, who are more proactive and supportive. All which results with moving into my new digs on May 1st. So much has changed here in the last nine years, homes built all around, bringing in oppressive and destructive elements. Without going into specifics, it was grizzly, tough, defensive and deafening and deaf to reason. Without losing my cool, I had to bite through and make some hard decisions to find a better atmosphere to live in. The area I found is nearby, but with an entirely different spirit, greater fertility, and a real sense of purpose as caretaker of a fairly large estate, with an oasis like courtyard, full of plant life and animal visitors, a rare place in this valley within the Mohave Desert. I'll be occupying the guest house. The owners will soon be leaving for six months, trusting me to keep their place safe and alive. So far the chemistry has been refreshingly friendly and mutually supportive. I've bitten through a number of prospective alternatives, but my teeth have met here.

Thanks, y'all, for your input.
 

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