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anemos

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after some meetings and a certain amount of disappointments I'm in two minds whether its wise to pursue a certain collaboration. What they offer has some disadvantages in important aspects yet, i could benefit in some other although the quality is questionable. Because i have no other alternative in this area I asked Yi - to get an idea of how to "relate" with them.

"what kind of relationship is feasible with them ? " 22
"H22 in which sense ?" : 48.2.4>31

its not a clear "no" , that things can't work out yet not that thrilling readings

Any ideas ?
 

precision grace

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SO this would suggest to me a need to take a more superficial view of this relation; and in 48.2 look into ways how this exchange can be made to work again so as to reach 48.4 status

I think 31 would overall seem to suggest to just keep concentrating on what does work and moving towards the areas of joint interest and perhaps 22 is indicative of having to 'pepper over' with niceties the bits that are not so agreeable.

for what it's worth

PS I just saw your post in the 22uc thread and I think it's quite poignant that you received 22uc here as you seem to be someone who doesn't like to consider even the existence of superficiality lol - perhaps 22 is trying to remind you that sometimes it is necessary to accept that?
 
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rodaki

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48.2,4 > 31 : you won't be satisfied but it will be one more thing added on your resume
 
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Hi anemos, I agree with Grace and Rodaki. Keep it simple Hex 22, use what you can and move on Hex 48 - Liss
 

rodaki

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I wanted to add sth here, which I think is obvious to any who tries to respond to queries, that asking for ideas while providing minimum info is like asking for a shot in the dark - not knowing exactly who or what is in there can only produce the simplest, most elementary answers - and I'm sure we all know Yi is often way past simple, or elementary, symbolisms. I don't believe 22 is superficial at all and clarifying it with 48 shows something broken that is being mended - supposing more out of it would be straying away from what's visible (22) at the moment
 

precision grace

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I don't believe 22 is superficial at all

Although I am far from being in any way knowledgeable about the Yi and most of the time go on pure instinct; it does make me wonder if some people's disdain of the superficial view of 22 is to do with perceived value (society tells us we should think superficial = not valuable) rather than the actual meaning of the hex.

I was thinking about Beauty and wondering if it is a purely human concept, or if Beauty was a force in the universe, like gravity or light. Surface of things is very important. If we didn't have surface, nothing would be separate from anything else. Just a thought..
 

anemos

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... you seem to be someone who doesn't like to consider even the existence of superficiality lol - perhaps 22 is trying to remind you that sometimes it is necessary to accept that?

That's true :bag: !! you got me, PG !! :) I can't function well when things are superficial and if I have to do its very energy draining. This matter would be "case closed" if I hadn't already arrange a meeting which was a small tester of their service.

I'm aware of that trait of mine and discussed it with certain people in similar fields. They agreed that there is a quality problem there but they point out my sensitivity or over sensitivity in that respect.


Thank you all for your ideas. need to think more about it and return to respond appropriately .
 

Trojina

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Although I am far from being in any way knowledgeable about the Yi and most of the time go on pure instinct; it does make me wonder if some people's disdain of the superficial view of 22 is to do with perceived value (society tells us we should think superficial = not valuable) rather than the actual meaning of the hex.

I was thinking about Beauty and wondering if it is a purely human concept, or if Beauty was a force in the universe, like gravity or light. Surface of things is very important. If we didn't have surface, nothing would be separate from anything else. Just a thought..

Amen to that. All many people do is react to 'superficiality' as a derogatory word indicating something is lesser. It's been pointed out lots of times that 'nearsightedness' seeing what's just in front is very helpful, just like for the mountain goat, picking his way amongst the boulders. He needs nearsightedness. No use him gazing out at the sky if he needs to watch the next step. I now think of 22 as 'surfaces', my skin is a surface....it's what shows. It can look really healthy when I'm actually unwell because I'm dark and have rosy cheeks. It also holds my insides in (though that's more a hex 60 thing I guess). Good points PG...


I tried to show 'superficiality' need not be a pejorative term by quoting Brad in the 22uc thread here


I remember this as being an especially good thread on 22 http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/frien...f-grace…

and I like this quote from Bradford on that thread



"Problem is, Grace is a bad word to use to summarize the hexagram's meaning.
It's more about things that catch the eye in such a way as to prevent the deeper
and longer view. The mountain is lit up by the flame below, and it looks pretty.
But you can see no farther. Closer to the core meaning is nearsightedness,
but more literally, ornamentation or superficiality. The mountain goat needs
to be nearsighted to pick his way up the mountain - he wants each of his steps
to be real, so there is a place for nearsightedness in how graceful his ascent is.

It's a common rookie error to get a single English word stuck in your head to be
the primary representative of a hexagram's meaning. It's also a big mistake to
think of one hexagram as more fortunate than another."


Elsewhere aswell, can't find it, but I think Brad said we don't have to take this kind of superficiality as necessarily a pejorative term....'nearsightedness' might be less offensive to some.

I agree with you completely. People react to the word 'superficiality' and so miss what others are really saying about 22 . This is all because of their own perception of the meaning of 'superficiality' .
 
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rodaki

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hold on . . before I forget my english


taken from the dictionary:
THE RIGHT WORD

No one wants to be accused of being superficial or shallow, two adjectives that literally indicate a lack of depth :) a superficial wound; a shallow grave).

Superficial suggests too much concern with the surface or obvious aspects of something, and it is considered a derogatory term because it connotes a personality that is not genuine or sincere.

Shallow is even more derogatory because it implies not only a refusal to explore something deeply but an inability to feel, sympathize, or understand. It is unlikely that a shallow person, in other words, will ever have more than superficial relationships with his or her peers.

Cursory, which may or may not be a derogatory term, suggests a lack of thoroughness or attention to detail :) a cursory glance at the newspaper), while hasty emphasizes a refusal or inability to spend the necessary time on something :) a hasty review of the facts).

If you are slapdash in your approach, it means that you are both careless and hasty :) a slapdash job of cleaning up).


'Superficial' IS a derogatory term. The reason I have strongly objected to it being used for 22 is because it leaves a big part of the hexagram unexamined and can create a false idea of understanding any answer . . Have you noticed how titles or key-words for hexagrams induce ways of examining them? We tend to study with more gravity, say, 26, than 22 - it's how our brains operate. All I'm saying is that we need to pay the same attention and study with the same depth all hexagrams. The rest is other peoples' thoughts of what I might be thinking/believing


(btw, I don't think this discussion belongs here, if people wish to go on, better move it somewhere more suitable - unless of course anemos doesn't mind)
 
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rodaki

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hold on . . before I forget my english


taken from the dictionary:
THE RIGHT WORD
No one wants to be accused of being superficial or shallow, two adjectives that literally indicate a lack of depth :) a superficial wound; a shallow grave).
Superficial suggests too much concern with the surface or obvious aspects of something, and it is considered a derogatory term because it connotes a personality that is not genuine or sincere.
Shallow is even more derogatory because it implies not only a refusal to explore something deeply but an inability to feel, sympathize, or understand. It is unlikely that a shallow person, in other words, will ever have more than superficial relationships with his or her peers.
Cursory, which may or may not be a derogatory term, suggests a lack of thoroughness or attention to detail :) a cursory glance at the newspaper), while hasty emphasizes a refusal or inability to spend the necessary time on something :) a hasty review of the facts).
If you are slapdash in your approach, it means that you are both careless and hasty :) a slapdash job of cleaning up).


'Superficial' IS a derogatory term. The reason I have strongly objected to it being used for 22 is because it leaves a big part of the hexagram unexamined and can create a false idea of understanding any answer . . Have you noticed how titles or key-words for hexagrams induce ways of examining them? We tend to study with more gravity, say, 26, than 22 - it's how our brains operate. All I'm saying is that we need to pay the same attention and study with the same depth all hexagrams. The rest is other peoples' thoughts of what I might think


(btw, I don't think this discussion belongs here, if people wish to go on, better move it somewhere more suitable - unless of course anemos doesn't mind)
 

precision grace

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context is vital

A superficial wound is far preferable to the deep, internal, all pervasive one ;)
 

Trojina

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'Superficial' IS a derogatory term. The reason I have strongly objected to it being used for 22 is because it leaves a big part of the hexagram unexamined and can create a false idea of understanding any answer . . Have you noticed how titles or key-words for hexagrams induce ways of examining them? We tend to study with more gravity, say, 26, than 22 - it's how our brains operate. All I'm saying is that we need to pay the same attention and study with the same depth all hexagrams. The rest is other peoples' thoughts of what I might think


(btw, I don't think this discussion belongs here, if people wish to go on, better move it somewhere more suitable - unless of course anemos doesn't mind)

:confused: er yes I understood that a very long time ago ....it is what Brad is saying below....Also you misunderstood what I was saying. Superficiality may be a pejorative word (Idon't need a dictionary) but one doesn't always have to apply it in 22 answers. It will apply sometimes...othertimes perhaps 'nearsightedness' is more applicable.


Problem is, Grace is a bad word to use to summarize the hexagram's meaning.

It's more about things that catch the eye in such a way as to prevent the deeper
and longer view. The mountain is lit up by the flame below, and it looks pretty.
But you can see no farther. Closer to the core meaning is nearsightedness,
but more literally, ornamentation or superficiality. The mountain goat needs
to be nearsighted to pick his way up the mountain - he wants each of his steps
to be real, so there is a place for nearsightedness in how graceful his ascent is.

It's a common rookie error to get a single English word stuck in your head to be
the primary representative of a hexagram's meaning
. It's also a big mistake to
think of one hexagram as more fortunate than another."


Yes it's a mistake to get hooked on one word that has been translated from Chinese. However I cannot in anycase think of any Yi writer that has called 22 'superficiality'. So it's not the title of the hexagram but one aspect of it.

There are times 22 will indicate superficiality. For you to argue that that cannot be the case is like you insisting people's experience and understanding must conform to your preferences . If someone want's to use the word 'superficiality' sometimes re 22 that's okay.


Of course how 22 is experienced depends on context, subjective and objective. Both may be superficial but no one has ever said it always is so who is the arguing with ? It seems to me kind of like you won't allow 22 to be 22. You want to make it into something else.....but it is 22 and I'm afraid one (note just one) aspect of 22 may be what we'd call superficiality. We can't change the entire aspect of meaning fro a hexagram because someone doesn't like it. It is what it is.


Like we have said a 100 times 22 can be multifaceted....it may reveal beauty ...or it may indicate superficiality...or it may indicate nearsightedness...or ornamentation...or

I don't want further discussion on it anyway as there is no point...you aren't presenting a case for anything that hasn't already been understood are you :confused: you do seem to be intent that no one has a superficial 22 experience but the fact is they do.....


You have the 'beat dead horse emoticon' but as far as I can see it isn't the case that you understand something about 22 no one else does. All I can see is that you object to the word 'superficiality' but if it's someone's experience or understanding they have every right to use it and it is in accordance with meanings for 22.

Apologies to Maria. Perhaps if you want to discuss it more with others Dora you could go to your own 22 thread....I think I've said all I need to here. Noneof which I haven't already said. But the bottom line is IMO 'superficiality' remains a perfectly fine word to use for 22 if people wish to
 
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Trojina

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context is vital

A superficial wound is far preferable to the deep, internal, all pervasive one ;)

I only just 'got' this....yes you're right. Who needs an online dictionary to tell us how the word 'superficial' is used in English. That online dictionary thing was very limited in that it only explains the word as it may be used to describe a person.....nothing else. 'Superficial' is an insult in only some contexts, like if you said someone was superficial you'd mean they were shallow. But there are loads of other ways we use the word...and a 'superficial wound' is one where it is simply descriptive...the wound is not deep...superficial scratches, superficial impressions, superficial leg, now I am at the point I said the word so often it sounds weird....oh no that would be an 'artificial leg'.....oh hmm any other ways we use the word 'superficial' in a neutral non pejorative way ?


Surfaces exist....they really do. If they didn't there would be no depth, just as there would be no yin without yang, black without white and so on...
 

anemos

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22 seems to enter in the same list with hex 44 , lol

please continue the discussion... no problem here. immersed with my reading that's why i can't participate

just a brief comment tho from my notes regarding this specific reading : Was thinking 22 in terms of depth vs breadth . In some reports I had to write, depth was required while in others breadth. The restricted -by the mountains -fire, according to some translations, makes some sense as you examine a specific matter closely and leave some other parts unexamined. that could be called a "superficial" approach but you still can get an A ,lol. or when breadth is required again you present ideas briefly , don't stick in details... no problem again... it depends
 

Trojina

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It also depends on what dictionary you use http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/superficial

I am deeply amused by the irony of this situation..we have someone who refuses to consider the meaning of superficiality in anything other than a superficial way :D

Well found ! Yes it is funny I guess...Anyway I may unearth Dora's own 22 thread ....I didn't agree with her there




22 seems to enter in the same list with hex 44 , lol

Hey yes 22 is the new 44 ! :rofl: 44 is so last season...
 

rodaki

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It also depends on what dictionary you use http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/superficial

I am deeply amused by the irony of this situation..we have someone who refuses to consider the meaning of superficiality in anything other than a superficial way :D


The irony, PG, is that this misses the point I have repeatedly made. If you've read my interpretation in this thread you've seen that I don't 'deny' anything. I am making it a point though to add ANOTHER point of view, usually unheard - so please, before you amuse yourself with ironies, take a closer look :mischief:
 

Trojina

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after some meetings and a certain amount of disappointments I'm in two minds whether its wise to pursue a certain collaboration. What they offer has some disadvantages in important aspects yet, i could benefit in some other although the quality is questionable. Because i have no other alternative in this area I asked Yi - to get an idea of how to "relate" with them.

"what kind of relationship is feasible with them ? " 22
"H22 in which sense ?" : 48.2.4>31

its not a clear "no" , that things can't work out yet not that thrilling readings

Any ideas ?

There's never much to be gained in 48.2...one is aiming too small, one needs a bigger resource so I don't think they can offer enough really. Re 48.4 I wonder if eventually there is/will be an alternative option that's not ready for you to work with yet but will be in time. If it is simply referring to them perhaps they need time to get things together...but overall I have a sense of ineffectiveness. it's not a dynamic picture.

No idea how to take 22uc here...you asked what relationship is feasible. Well it seems perhaps they can add to your reputation or profile in some way...you adorn one another, but I'm not sure that it's enough. Only you can see that.


If it were my reading I think the next question I would ask would be if it were a good idea to wait for a better option. I think it might be. The well is all that is on offer in the whole area of what you are dealing with. It doesn't look great in 48.2...gains are small and take too much effort. I think the 48.4 speaks of needing more time to wait for them or wait for the right time to renew the lowering of your bucket into a replenished well. Either theirs or some other.
 

precision grace

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The irony, PG, is that this misses the point I have repeatedly made. If you've read my interpretation in this thread you've seen that I don't 'deny' anything. I am making it a point though to add ANOTHER point of view, usually unheard - so please, before you amuse yourself with ironies, take a closer look :mischief:

don't get cranky, all points of view are allowed! (even mine, heh)

I don't understand what you are talking about - as far as I can tell, we keep, Trying to examine 22 in all ways possible, so please be more explicit in what you think is being overlooked?
Also, it's probably not wise to make sweeping generalisations, e.g. I do not give more weight or look more into 26 than 22 and I'm sure that if I was buying a wedding dress, for example, and asked if a particular choice was a good one, I'd be hoping for 22 rather than 26 :D Now, you cannot tell me that wedding dress choice is anything other than a decision of monumental importance, even if it does deal with ornamentation. ..ok..I will SO totally stop playing devils advocate now, I swear :)
 

rodaki

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oh dang it, take a look at the archives here PG, see what's the most often proffered interpretation of 22, how many different points of view are offered about it and tell me that it's studied as often and with the same attention as, say, for example, 26 (and I highlight study here).

I get all the more curious when I see people simply falling in line with the simplest interpr., even more so when this might not always fit. So what's the harm with talking about it in other terms or honing in in its elements? Why do people get so hang up about it? I don't mean the question towards you, I'm just thinking out loud. So yeah, my experiences with said hexagram are multiple, and varied, and richer than the usual ones. and yeah, I make a point of throwing them out there and trying to show what other riches might lie hidden in 22 . . I've done it with other hexagrams too, I like poking through, questioning, exploring more - and when I find something that I think is worth saying, I say it.




. . now if you'll excuse me, I have an early rising tomorrow and I need to go get my beauty sleep :p
 

gene

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I am not sure where all this talk about superficiality is coming from, or what people are trying to relate it to in this context, but often hexagram twenty two will indicate to us that the issue is too big and too deep for the I Ching to answer. It requires a deeper analysis.

However, hexagram twenty two can also indicate that we are being accepted. It indicates that we can be accepted into the situation, and that we can fit in. I would not recommend doing a second reading if you don't understand the first. I recommend deeper analysis. Not just analysis, but a period of meditation on the answer.

Gene
 

anemos

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To me h22 most of the times comes when there is a sensation of blockage like something restricts the internal flow of things and something needs to be healed. That’s the raw feeling of those readings to me.

Hex 31 says it clear to me. “People soon give up counseling a man who thinks that he knows everything better than anyone else” On one hand , I can understand that attitude of that lady with whom I had those unfortunate encounters; its pure marketing and her effort to attract customer by making lighter the problematic areas of the whole issue and their overall attitude which also makes sense as we talk about a monopoly. That’s hugely unerotic (in terms of h31and the ways I function, lol) and also has created a lot’s of doubts ; if we can’t find a way to talk openly for tangible and straightforward things then when things are more complicate what ??? I had to check some thing again and again and see whether I’m mistaken to the things I “object” but seems that my observations are valid.

Hex 48 and line 2 and 4 also point to a blockage. There is no flow, no way to get the water unless one waits while the well is been reconstructed. So , my intention is to investigate if there is a way to “re-constract” the initial exchange.

H22 could also be to seek for small things, like a typical paper just to show it, however , without going into boring details, is not a very wise approach.

I asked another question “Something else I should know about that matter ?” : 31.4>39
A nice way to close this matter. Have to investigate everything and make a decision on what fits to me or not. That's the 22 and 31 and the lining of the 48 well, me thinks

Thanks again for all the thought you shared. Much appreciated.
 
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anemos

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However, hexagram twenty two can also indicate that we are being accepted. It indicates that we can be accepted into the situation, and that we can fit in. I would not recommend doing a second reading if you don't understand the first. I recommend deeper analysis. Not just analysis, but a period of meditation on the answer.

Gene

I'm not sure about it. Generally, I believe that depends on the individual and the way each mind- or everything else- works. The funny think about my last reading is that Wilhelm's text describes well the "reason" I started this whole bundle of readings. It was like making a cycle , starting from a point and return to the "same" but during that journey things start fall in place... or better its like moving in a spiral .
 

precision grace

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gene;175569 hexagram twenty two can also indicate that we are being accepted. It indicates that we can be accepted into the situation said:
eh? That's a new one on me - how does fitting in fit 22??
 

gene

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Read the W/B commentary on the fifth line. Although the fifth line is not the ruler of the hexagram in this case, it generally shows the meaning of the hexagram as a whole. The third line also lends itself to this in showing the charm in the situation. The hexagram as a whole indicates a situation of beauty and grace which is in itself a symbol of acceptance. In terms of the trigrams, the feminine light below, bestows beauty, grace, simplicity, and acceptance on the masculine upper trigram of the mountain.

Gene
 

precision grace

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Read the W/B commentary on the fifth line. Although the fifth line is not the ruler of the hexagram in this case, it generally shows the meaning of the hexagram as a whole. The third line also lends itself to this in showing the charm in the situation. The hexagram as a whole indicates a situation of beauty and grace which is in itself a symbol of acceptance. In terms of the trigrams, the feminine light below, bestows beauty, grace, simplicity, and acceptance on the masculine upper trigram of the mountain.

Gene

yeah, the thing is, I just don't get acceptance, full stop. the hex 2, which I thought was acceptance for example, I don't get in any way shape or form. I just don't. What does acceptance feel like? Smell like? Taste like? And how does the acceptance of 2uc differ to 22 uc?
 

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Well, I come from an older generation and I think we had a different concept of words. I don't think anyone in my generation would have said that a particular word is condescending, or negative, or such things. Words like superficial have a meaning. And some things are superficial. It is just reality. And there is nothing good or bad about it, when we want to laugh we have to look at something that is superficial. When we want to meditate on something, we have to work on something that has many layers to it. It would have all depended on the context and the intention of the user. Secondly, we didn't see words as having only one connotation. It all depended on how it was used. To us, the word acceptance would have a different meaning based on the situation. In hexagram two, acceptance has more the connotation of receiving what is given to us. The idea is "accept" what is granted us by the universal powers. We accept it even if it doesn't appeal to us as a necessary event or situation in our lives. Universal yin accepts or receives the seed implanted by yang energy and thereby the universe is created. In hexagram twenty two there is a slightly different connotation. The idea here is that we accept someone as opposed to rejecting them. We can accept them into our lives, or we can reject them, or we can just tolerate them. We accept them if they are pleasing to us and enrich our lives. We reject them if they are a drain on us or do not intrigue us in any way. It is a natural process and all human beings engage in it, whether consciously or not. We cannot help it. We have to make choices. That is what this is all about.

Gene
 

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