Hi all,

I've been considering 1.6,
and how line 1 and line 6 are sometimes
'out of the sphere of activity of a given hexagrams general meaning'.

Given that, I am currently inclined to view the meaning of 1, line 6 as something like The Dragon regrets because he does not take action when he should. I think of the grasshopper, in The grasshopper and the ant. "What, me work?, you've got to be joking, that is beneath me."

Also, the fan yao shows a situation where one should take action (cry out for help) and will regret if they do not.

Has anyone experienced it this way?

The dragon overreaches in 1.6. He goes high and so can forget the 'on the ground' reality. Line 6 shows the end of whatever the hexagram is. If hexagram one is pure heaven, pure inspiration and pure abstraction, by line 6 there's in needed a bit of earth's 'how can this actually be done ?'.

I can see in some instances if one is not paying attention to how things might be done and is still all in the realms of the ineffable the line might be saying then 'ground this, come down to earth' and that could well translate to 'can we deal with the practicalities please'. 'Can we deal with the practicalities please' might in some cases mean doing something practical or at least not avoid doing it.

I think I have sort of experienced it that way when doing or trying to do things that in hindsight were not very much in touch with the boundaries of a situation or my own limits.

Although sometimes what we see as 'practical actions' may themselves be overreaching limits. If I get this line now I'd ask where I'm flying too close to the sun. The problem is, at the time it can be hard to see it since we are often still full of the idealism which can be present with hexagram one.

Moss Elk said:

Hi all,

I've been considering 1.6,
and how line 1 and line 6 are sometimes
'out of the sphere of activity of a given hexagrams general meaning'.

Click to expand...

More surprising still, is that the commentary can be out of the sphere of meaning. This is why I've always viewed Wilhelms' translation and commentary with suspicion. Sometimes the commentary is the opposite of what the line obviously means, in his own translation. What is the 'fan yao'? Anyway, 1.6 can mean simply the exceeding of ones' proper limits, in any direction (above or below), and the line is a caution against this, that regrets will follow, either way. In terms of the general meaning of the hexagram, it could mean that, no matter how encompassing or profound someones (the dragons) understanding can be or seem, he does not encompass the reality of the Absolute.

@ernobe:
Fan Yao (did Bradford coin that?) is the corresponding line in the changed hex, after the line changes in the primary hex. The two lines share some qualities that give them a sort of character kinship.
Example: hex 1 line 1 changes to 44, so look at 44.1
Hex 1, line 1: Hidden Dragon, do not act.
Hex 44, line 1: Put the brakes on, ..don't go to meet that one..more than you bargained for...

@Trojina: "if hexagram one is pure heaven, pure inspiration, pure abstraction..."
I see hex one entirely differently:
As pure Motion, Action, energetic doing.
'Heaven is always in motion'
I see Icarus references around here and there,
I think 60.3 perfectly fits Icarus, but not 1.6
I've been wrong before, and I've been right before, and either way, I am open to discussion.

Could someone provide the various meanings of kang4,
And a perhaps point to where it can be read in a context, elsewhere, outside of Yi?

Thank you

Always in motion but without a field (hexagram 2) to act in it can remain in the abstract.

Fan Yao (did Bradford coin that?) is the corresponding line in the changed hex, after the line changes in the primary hex. The two lines share some qualities that give them a sort of character kinship.

Click to expand...

Svrenus has the info here...see post 2

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?22113-Understanding-Opposite-Hexagrams

In my experience, 1 is something like an action resembling the rebooting of your computer.
"Back to square 1 with energy".

As about 1:6, for sure what the dragon regrets is flying too high (either literally or metaphorically).

My two experiences, with this line changing only, are:

a) I got it once when asking about a trip/flight... scary. Obviously I made it out alive.
The pilot must have corrected his course in due time (but I was seriously scared by the line)

b) I got it another time when management had requested (illogically) that I move to another building.
It made no sense for me to move there, in practical terms.
I asked, "is it possible that they change their minds?". 1.6. They did in the end.

Moss Elk said:

...
Could someone provide the various meanings of kang4, And a perhaps point to where it can be read in a context, elsewhere, outside of Yi? ...

Click to expand...

Hi, Moss:

I remember something about that EXCESSIVE YANG ENERGY can be cause of illness.

It's implicit in the text of the Changes that the lines move upwards, the top line will dissapear, lines 2nd. to 5th. will move one stage each and a new line will appear in the base.

Six entire lines means an excess of yang in some valid combinatory sequences the new line at the base must be a broken line ||<, say, H.44 (THE QUEEN)

I wonder if the DRAGON regrets the ENCOUNTER with the QUEEN or the time wasted before it, being so stubborn.

I've found another meaning in CJKV-English Dictionary:

亢龍 kànglóng: "Arrogant dragon."

A metaphor for a man in a high position who has been corrupted by his high status and no longer has the support of the people or his retainers.

http://www.buddhism-dict.net/cgi-bin/xpr-dealt.pl?4e.xml+id('c4ea2-9f8d')

Click to expand...

Yours,

Charly

Hi Elk,

To me 1.6 is very clear - excessive force/action, that leads to misfortune and regret afterwards.
Legge's version is unambiguous, 1.6 → 43 (Separation):
(We see its subject as) the dragon exceeding the proper limits.
There will be occasion for repentance.

In h43 at 6th place we see the one opposed by 5 lines (exactly what Charly quoted), and who will be

43.6 → 1 (Creative), Legge:
Shows its subject without any (helpers) on whom to call.
His end will be evil.

I consider fan yao as an opposite, like movement on the same street but in other direction, like going North or South and the temperature/length of day will change because of that.
In 1.6 you are given a warning that can lead to 43, while in 43.6 the revolution has already started and is unavoidable, arrogant king will have to return to square 1.

Takashima's Ekidan also sees it (fan yao) that way, I remember one example about 2.4 'Tied up sack' while 16.4 promises success and support.
Ahh here it is:

Thanks everyone.

So it seems to be something like:

In line 1 the Dragons strength is too weak to act.
In line 6 the Dragons strength is too excessive/harshly/forceful

Moss Elk said:

Thanks everyone.

So it seems to be something like:

In line 1 the Dragons strength is too weak to act.
In line 6 the Dragons strength is too excessive/harshly/forceful

Click to expand...

I wouldn't put it like that. In 1.1 the dragon is in the depths, so not weak just not yet evident, not ready to manifest itself.

I think the words 'excessive/harshly/forceful' are often too excessive/harshly/forceful. Harmen wrote something good about it somewhere, will see if I can find it. Anyway all these words carry a heavy judgement whereas all it actually says is the dragon over reaches. This can manifest as aiming to do things you are not capable of or demanding things to happen a certain way when it is not possible.

From Harmen's site http://www.yjcn.nl/wp/hexagram-1-line-5-6-extra-text/

and there is a link to more on line 6 in there but here it is again http://www.yjcn.nl/wp/the-chinese-icarus/

Ah this is what I remember from Harmen

If we stick to the image of Icarus, then I think the third meaning fits best. If you do not know your limits, or do not accept them, you will have unavoidable misfortune. Not from arrogance, but from recklessness. It are often the kind people, and not the arrogant people, who have to learn their lessons like this.

Click to expand...

I agree the 'arrogance' angle can be entirely over done. Ask yourself who often over gives or over estimates their capacities and it is not the arrogant but the good hearted, kind people. So I think it is an error to imagine 1.6 refers always to harshness or forcefulness. Kindness is as much a slave driver as anything. This could easily be the line of burn out, when one offers far more than one can sustain. Should we call this 'arrogance' ? It's not arrogance in it's negative sense but it is being out of touch with one's limits. So if someone volunteers at a charity and they do more and more hours and try to do more and more as well as their regular job and their family commitments, they will be reckless, not heeding limits, and may burn out but this does not make them arrogant or tyrannical.

That's why I like Legge's text more: 'exceeds limits', compared to Wilhelm's 'arrogance'.

I get value from considering line 1 of a hexagram as meaning "Before..." and line 6 as meaning "After..."
For example 5.1 describes conditions before one considers themselves to be Waiting (one just "abides in what endures") and 5.6 describes conditions after the time of Waiting is past (the three unexpected guests arrive). Interesting how 51.1 starts out with the full SHOCK - like it comes before you could even begin to anticipate it.
So with hexagram 1.6 if one is still Creating AFTER the moment for creating has passed they will have cause to repent - like a speaker who was interesting at first but now he's talked too long and the audience is no longer taking in what he has to say.
Wilhelm's choice of the word "arrogant" makes sense if you consider that the Creative creates by aligning with others (1.2 the superior man seeks out others in his field). If the man gets too far ahead of the group, or claims credit for himself alone he is no longer one with the Creative force and he will need to
2.1 cool down, come back down to earth.
Anyway, if you just say the words "Before.." and "After .." and plug in the name of the hexagram you can get insights. For example "Before Seeking Union...8.1 seek to be complete just with yourself." or "Before The Well...48.1 there is just undrinkable mud." "After The Well...48.6 there is clear water for all."

When I say line one is too weak,
it is because of linking the meaning with 'hidden dragon'
The young prince who is heir to the throne. His time, position, resources, power, influence, what have you, aren't right yet.
Perhaps I am mistaken to do so.

Did the term 'hidden dragon' mean 'heir apparent' back when Yi was written? Or are the two unrelated?

Arrogance had nothing to do with overstepping here IMO
The overstepping is from a wish to press forward - do something positive - but it either doesn't work or it is not the right time. I don't like the Wilhelm on this line. Hex 1 for me is akin to being in the top maths set. 1.1 is when you sit at the back eyes down hoping that you will not e asked the next question. 1.6 feels like being in the front row keen and eager being asked the question and then getting it wrong. Not arrogance exactly then. Twice I remember this line:

1978 - Christmas and my very first I Ching book did castings for all the family. My Grandad bit his line formidably intelligent (IQ of 160) he was a welder - left school at 13 he asked what his future held - he could have been anything really but he cared for my Nan and spent his hours helping others he then cared for my NANs sister when my man died - she was 16 years older than my NAn. I always think of him with this line. It isn't arrogance at all.

Then about 4 years ago I was utterly exhausted and had to care for my daughter - I thought I knew how to do things - I knew best. Whilst I still feel that I did - it took its toll on me - overstepping dragons.

Thanks everyone,

The word reckless stood out to me.

And I just noticed from Wilhelm pg 10:
"This line warns against titanic aspirations that exceed one's power."

In this excerpt I think the quest for the Dragons regret is interestingly examined:

3 Keeping up with Time
“Keeping up with time”, whose revised form has become a popular slogan
nowadays, is another important principle of time in the Book of Changes. This
preposition seems to have been put forward in connection with the ideas of
“rising and falling with time” and “changing with time” by the Yin-Yang Five
Elements School.
The “Fan Ju Cai Ze liezhuan” 范雎蔡泽列传 (“Biographies of Fan Ju and Cai
Ze”) in Shi Ji 史记 (Historical Records) includes a dialogue when Cai Ze 蔡泽
persuaded Fan Ju into a timely retreat. Cai said, “People say, ‘The sun will begin
to fall after noon, and the moon will begin to wax when it comes to its full, and
things will begin to decline as they reach their summits. That is a rule of nature.
Accordingly, it is the usual way of saints to advance and retreat as situations
change with time. Therefore, one can volunteer to hold an office when the state is
in order, and should retreat when it is out of order. The saints say, “It will benefit
a man of honor when the dragon flies into the sky” and “Wealth and honor are
nothing to me without righteousness”. Now you have been satisfied by avenging
yourself, but you have no idea how to change and cope with the new situation.
But it is not the right thing. In history, Qi Huangong 齐桓公 (Duke Huan of the
56 ZHENG Wangeng
Qi State) assembled other dukes 9 times and unified the country once, but when
he showed his arrogance at the meeting at Kuiqiu, 9 states betrayed him. Fuchai
夫差, a king of the Wu State, had the most powerful forces in the country, but he
depended upon his valiance and strength to spite the other lords and bully the Qi
and Jin states, consequently he was killed and his power destroyed. Xia Yu 夏育
and Taishi Jiao 太史噭 were such valiant warriors that they could scare enemy
forces simply with their shouts, but at the end they were killed by mediocre men.
All these perils were the results of not turning back after reaching the summit or
of not remaining humble and reclusive or frugal and simple. The Book of
Changes says, ‘A disdainful dragon will regret itself.’ It refers to one who can
ascend but not descend, or can extend but not bend, can go forward but not return.
I wish you to think it over” (Sima 1982, p. 2422). In reference to this passage,
Cai Ze thought the idea that one should take offices when the state was properly
run meant the same as “It will benefit a man of honor when the dragon flies into
the sky” in the Jiuwu yao 九五爻 (a line in the fifth place) in the Qian Diagram
乾卦 in the Book of Changes, and the idea that one should retreat when the state
was badly run the same as “Wealth and honor are nothing to me without
righteousness” in the Chapter “Shuer” 述而 in the Analects of Confucius. If one
holds a high rank without knowing when to advance or retreat, it would be the
same as not knowing the reason in the saying, “A disdainful dragon will regret
itself”; consequently, he would be able to ascend but not descend, or to extend
but not bend, “not returning after reaching the summit.” Certainly such a man
will encounter the disaster of being killed and ruining the country. According to
Zhu Bokun 朱伯崑, a prominent expert on the Book of Changes, it was probably
an influence by Taoist and Yin-Yang scholars that made the author of this
passage interpret “A disdainful dragon will regret itself” through the idea that
“things begin to decline after they reach their summits” and the idea of
“changing with time” (Zhu 2005, p. 44).
The 9th chapter of the Laozi 老子 (Tao Te Ching) says, “It is a natural way to
retreat after the great achievement” (Lou 1980, p. 21). The chapter Baixin 白心
(Explanation of Minds) in Guanzi 管子 (Works of Guanzi) explains, “The sun
will deflect after it rises to its ultimate site, and the moon will wane after it waxes.
To noon simply results in deflection, to wax simply wane, and to enlarge simply
ruins. Whoever can keep himself without clinging to oneself? It is the principle
of the Heaven and the Earth that should be followed” (Guo 1982, p. 456). And
the chapter “Qiushui” 秋水 (“Flood in Autumn”) in Zhuangzi 庄子 (Works of
Zhuangzi) also says, “(It is natural) to rest after a rise and vacate after a full, and
an end necessarily implies a beginning” (Guo 1961, p. 585). All things in the
universe begin to decline when they reach their peaks. In addition, a chapter
titled “Sishi” 四时 (“Four Seasons”) in the Guanzi says, “Therefore, the sage
kings always return when the road comes to an end and start when things come
Tracing the Source of the Idea of Time in Yizhuan 57
to an end. Virtues begin with spring and grow in summer, and punitive laws
begin with fall and prevail in winter. Punitive laws and virtues are always there,
the four seasons seem the same” (Guo 1982, p.27). According to this passage,
yang qi 阳气 (positive energy) reaches its summit in summer, returning in fall
when it reaches its peak, and then yin qi 阴气 (passive energy) arrives; yin qi
reaches its summit in winter, returning in spring when it reaches its peak, and
then yang qi arrives. A saint should follow such a way of nature, teaching virtues
in spring and summer, and enforcing laws in fall and winter. That is the idea of
“changing with the time” by the Yin-Yang Five Elements School. ................."

Source: http://www.biroco.com/yijing/Tracing_time_Yizhuan.pdf (chapter 3)