Should I no longer employ my occasional cleaner? 30,5 -- 13

peter2610 · Jun 29, 2016

I have an occasional cleaner who comes in about one day a month to do a bit of cleaning, cooking and sorting out the laundry. We get on very well and usually have a good laugh together but in recent months I have noticed things going missing - cooking utensils, a full set of expensive air-tight storage boxes, bedding and linen, and a lovely hand-made paper-knife handed down by my parents. She has family in Spain but now lives with her partner here in the UK.
None of my earlier readings on this problem indicated a definite guilt or innocence but did indicate very clearly that the relationship should continue. There is an unlikely possibility that the missing items have simply been misplaced and I would be delighted if this proved to be the case. My latest reading ran as follows:

Should I no longer employ my occasional cleaner? 30,5 -- 13

5th yin (Wilhelm) (a) Tears in floods, sighing and lamenting.
Good fortune
(b) The good fortune of the six in the fifth place clings to king and prince.

An immediate possible confusion on reading the line text is in the assignation of "Tears in floods, sighing and lamenting." If these words are seen as referring to my state of mind at the time of asking this question then they wouldn't be far off the mark. I was particularly upset by the loss of my parents' paper-knife, which had been in the family for over fifty years. If this assignation were correct then the overall meaning of the reading would appear to be that I was deeply upset by the theft of these items and "good fortune" would result from the dismissal of my cleaner. However, the Lesser Image text (b) is without doubt referring to my previous readings and the importance of clinging to their guidance - not to concern myself with her guilt or innocence but simply to maintain the relationship. From this perspective "Tears in floods, sighing and lamenting ... Good fortune" is referring to the change of heart leading to the forsaking of my intention to dismiss her, it doesn't necessarily mean that she is innocent but it does mean that for the time-being I should "Cling" to my original readings and allow the Universal Process to shape the situation.

loverofknowledge · Jun 29, 2016

Peter,
I would take this as counsel that you lament the loss -- and cry over the situation (feel the sorrow) -- and then confront it somehow. But do something intermediate between nothing and letting go of your cleaner. Any way to talk to her or would you not be able to get at the truth that way? Any agency sponsoring her or the like?
13 relating hexagram points to a bigger group involved.
Maybe if you confronted her, the tears would flow (on her side). Could you ask, for instance, about the missing things without immediately implying theft?
Hope the things missing turn up and the situation is resolved well.

peter2610 · Jun 30, 2016

LoverofKnowledge,
thanks, yes the position I have taken is to not force the issue but to watch carefully. One of the food items that used to diminish on her every visit was my tinned rice puddings, which I now keep in the hall in direct view from my desk. This works very well - my rice puddings no longer vanish and it sends her a clear message that I know what she's doing. I have tried talking with her about one or two missing items without actually accusing her but she simply answers with a stream of bland "don't know's" and it is absolutely hopeless.

I'm prepared to simply watch carefully for a while, but if anything else of importance vanishes I suspect I'll take action. I've had a number of readings before where the I Ching has placed me in a position of difficult perseverance and it can be extremely uncomfortable. I suspect that this is an exercise in "self-mastery" rather than "catching a thief."

Trojina · Jun 30, 2016

Erm is this one for 'Shared Readings' ?

Trojina · Jun 30, 2016

...or maybe this is just an illustration of 30.5 ?

It's funny because recently there was whole thread in Exploring Divination on 30.5 http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?22308-Any-experience-with-30-5

peter2610 · Jun 30, 2016

Thanks Trojina ...... yes, I did consider Shared Readings but the main purpose of my post was to clarify a line with a rather obscure and understated text, the meaning of the line is not obvious and is not always clear and this was my primary point of concern rather than any overall interpretation of the reading.

I didn't realise there had been a recent thread on 30,5 but now that you've mentioned it I'll certainly look it up and see what I can learn from it. Many thanks.

loverofknowledge · Jul 1, 2016

I think the iching is affirming you for lamenting the loss of your things, and for mourning the lost trust between you and your cleaner. The good fortune is that you will restore your "rule" over your house as the king.
Is your cleaner a private agent or hired by a company? It's a personal thing, to invite somebody to your house, and rightly you are concerned if there's anything amiss -- while, at the same time, it can be hard for the cleaner (if innocent) to be under suspicion.
Maybe 13 relates to your fellow-feeling with your cleaner, -- your concern to be decent and fair, in order to stay in solidarity.

Trojina · Jul 1, 2016

FWIW I'd see 30.5 as seeing clearly what is lost, mourning it freely and moving on. I cannot see how you can continue to employ someone who has stolen family heirlooms. It's not feasible. If she stole the paperknife this is a cruel action. She came into your private space and took your most personal things which have sentiment attached.

I suppose the difficulty is in not being sure.

peter2610 · Jul 1, 2016

Thanks Trojina and Loverofknowledge,

I think the most difficult aspect of all this is the lack of certainty, the I Ching won't give me a clear, decisive option to follow - looking back through my various readings it keeps coming up with answers derived from hexagrams 32 Duration, 27 Corners of the Mouth, 62 Preponderance of the Small etc none of which give a clear, or implicit, indication of her guilt or innocence but do seem to encourage simply carrying on. She is self-employed and I'd hate to inflict an injustice on her but it is very uncomfortable having someone come into your house knowing that they might be stealing your personal possessions. I'll give it a few more weeks, watching carefully and then make myself come to a final decision.

veavea · Jul 1, 2016

I suppose the question "Should I no longer employ her" is maybe a bit indirect, why not the wording 'Should I actively dismiss her", or "What will be the result if I dismiss her"? Or, "is it in my best interests to keep employing my cleaner?"

Although, whether or not to dismiss is up to you - maybe the question could be: "Is my cleaner stealing from me?" Once you have a clear answer yes or no, you could ask: "Why is she stealing from me?" and then decide whether you need to dismiss her?

Trojina · Jul 1, 2016

veavea said:
I suppose the question "Should I no longer employ her" is maybe a bit indirect, why not the wording 'Should I actively dismiss her", or "What will be the result if I dismiss her"? Or, "is it in my best interests to keep employing my cleaner?"

Although, whether or not to dismiss is up to you - maybe the question could be: "Is my cleaner stealing from me?" Once you have a clear answer yes or no, you could ask: "Why is she stealing from me?" and then decide whether you need to dismiss her?

But you cannot convict someone of theft on the basis of any Yi answer, nor have any certainty your answer would even mean they are guilty. You need hard evidence.

loverofknowledge · Jul 1, 2016

peter, how about just leveling with her, and saying-- in your kind but firm way --
"I have lost trust because things of mine are missing. I don't want to accuse you directly, but if you cannot find these things for me, I must conclude that you are responsible for their loss."
She wouldn't necessarily admit it, if she had stolen the items, but if you put it this way, maybe she will understand.
If she's innocent -- or let's say, if somebody approached me this way, and I were innocent, what I would say is: "I empathize and I am concerned for your lost items too. I assure you, I haven't taken them. Let me get to work to find them for you."
That kind of response, I think, would be an indication of being innocent.
In other words, talk with her and you may be able to gauge the reality.

peter2610 · Jul 2, 2016

Thank you veavea,

my early questions, which I mentioned in my opening post, were nearly all very direct questions such as
"Has XXX stolen my paperknife"
"Is XXX stealing my food?"
"Has my duvet-cover been stolen?"
None of these received a direct, categorical reply other than to simply carry on. For some reason the I Ching wants this present situation to continue, all conditions change over time but I can't honestly see where this one is going.

peter2610 · Jul 2, 2016

Thanks Loverofknowledge, that's a very well thought-out suggestion which I'll certainly think on but she's Spanish and her English is very poor so any suggestion can't be very nuanced. Also, anything that approaches a direct challenge is met with a hostile, angry response. If it wasn't for the I Ching answers I would have resolved this very firmly months ago but I'm reluctant to contravene the I Ching if a satisfactory solution can be found. I'll wait another week or two and then ask her, as you've suggested, to help me find an item that I know has gone missing. If there's no positive result then I think she'll have to go, regardless of the readings

veavea · Jul 4, 2016

Perhaps there is compassion for the cleaner... or perhaps a lesson about the things that we own, or think we own? I've been on buddhist courses where this kind of thing is cited as a lesson about attachment to property... and the true meaning of happiness and freedom from the illusion of materiality? Or something?!

I can't remember where I heard just such a story recently, I think in a non-fiction spiritual self-help-type audiobook, where the narrator was talking about a woman who was dying of cancer, i think, and had a cleaner or carer; she suspected her cleaner/carer had stolen an heirloom diamond ring that she was most attached to, for great sentimental reasons - and here the woman had plenty of reason to be sad, as she had cancer too. But the lesson conveyed was that the woman learned to accept that she could choose how to react to the loss of the ring, and in the end she accepted it with calm and even decided that if the cleaner/carer had taken it, maybe it was for the best. And she found happiness in that release of the object. I seem to recall that the ring actually turned up in due course.

(I think it was in a book/recording by either Deepak Chopra or Eckhart Tolle...)

veavea · Jul 4, 2016

This from Robert DeKorne's page:

"Siu: The man reaches the zenith of life. After experiencing certain disappointments, he recognizes the vanity of human behavior. If he modifies his value system and mood, good fortune will eventually be realized.

Wing: A true change of heart is occurring. Such dramatic change is sometimes accompanied by a deep grief. Yet with this grief comes good fortune because the change will bring better times for all concerned.

Editor: If this is the only moving line, the hexagram is changed to number thirteen, Union of Forces, the corresponding line of which reads: "The representative of the Union of Forces first wails and cries out, and then laughs..." The present position thus describes the struggles and pains involved in growth, and the "union of forces" is the product of this growth. Since this hexagram refers to clarity and comprehension, the increase could be the creation of new concepts or ideas. Because this is a magnetic line located between two dynamic lines there is conveyed the idea of mediating between two extremes. This mediation is necessarily a balancing act, as the stress of the position indicates."

So to me, yes, this is about 'vanity of human behaviour'... the attachment placed on possessions or personal space. It's an admonishment to give up our vain attachments to rice puddings (!!) and laugh at ourselves...?

I do love a nice tin of rice pudding myself

SO - my suggestion would be, FWIW, don't sack the cleaner, change your attitude and, difficult as it may be, accept what is happening with good grace. It may be that the situation might then start to change of its own accord - or not, but the important thing (I think) is for you to change your response to it... and that means more than just grudgingly accept it, but truly accept and welcome it as an opportunity to shed yourself of illusion...!!

Easier said than done, I grant...

goddessliss · Jul 4, 2016

It's all well and good to let go of our attachment to things particularly if someone 'stole' them but personally for me it's about the element of trust that happens...you hire someone and pay them to do a job in your home that's a huge trust, a privilege in fact when it's in your own home and then they have the audacity to take something of yours? that's what upsets me.

veavea · Jul 5, 2016

goddessliss said:
It's all well and good to let go of our attachment to things particularly if someone 'stole' them but personally for me it's about the element of trust that happens...you hire someone and pay them to do a job in your home that's a huge trust, a privilege in fact when it's in your own home and then they have the audacity to take something of yours? that's what upsets me.

I agree! It's awful, but the wider question (as I understood it) was around looking for a 'higher reason' as to why this was happening and what lesson the Yi wanted to be learnt in respect of the line... to a huge extent our concerns around possessions, trust and boundaries are temporal, worldly concerns - not spiritual ones. And the issue of trust here is explicitly to do with possessions. Also I tend to think the Yi would try to dissuade us from exercising judgment on the perceived 'sins' of the cleaner - well, a buddhist Yi probably would! But that doesn't mean we should experience the transgressions like a martyr, I think the difficult lesson is to find happy acceptance in it. I believe the situation might then change of its own accord, in unexpected ways. That's my understanding of the line here, FWIW. The key is to change one's response and in so doing develop spiritually, and grow in genuine happiness.

If we don't learn and change, but just wait passively for the lesson to happen to us, well then it will never happen and the negatively-perceived situation will just accrue... we will never learn, we'll only wait for something external to ourselves! which will never come. learning and changing is the same thing here, we cannot do one without the other.

I'm not saying that is the desirable response to all situations like this one... but to me, anyway, in this case that's what the line is about.

I may be wrong of course. I often am

peter2610 · Jul 6, 2016

peter2610 said:
Should I no longer employ my occasional cleaner? 30,5 -- 13

5th yin (Wilhelm) (a) Tears in floods, sighing and lamenting.
Good fortune
(b) The good fortune of the six in the fifth place clings to king and prince.

An immediate possible confusion on reading the line text is in the assignation of "Tears in floods, sighing and lamenting." If these words are seen as referring to my state of mind at the time of asking this question then they wouldn't be far off the mark. I was particularly upset by the loss of my parents' paper-knife, which had been in the family for over fifty years. If this assignation were correct then the overall meaning of the reading would appear to be that I was deeply upset by the theft of these items and "good fortune" would result from the dismissal of my cleaner. However, the Lesser Image text (b) is without doubt referring to my previous readings and the importance of clinging to their guidance - not to concern myself with her guilt or innocence but simply to maintain the relationship. From this perspective "Tears in floods, sighing and lamenting ... Good fortune" is referring to the change of heart leading to the forsaking of my intention to dismiss her, it doesn't necessarily mean that she is innocent but it does mean that for the time-being I should "Cling" to my original readings and allow the Universal Process to shape the situation.

Thanks Veavea. If "Tears in floods...." is referring to my regret at my losses then the line text for (a) could be seen as empathising with my misfortune and endorsing my intention to dismiss my cleaner. If "Tears in floods.." is seen as referring to my regretting my proposed intention to dismiss my cleaner then the line text (a) is referring to the good fortune of my change of heart and my CLINGING to the instructions given previously by King and prince - Lesser Image text (b). I see this second process as formulating the central structure of the entire hexagram - hence the name of the hexagram "CLINGING" - and tying-in exactly with the physical characteristics of a burning flame.
Taking this second approach does indeed, as you have pointed out, employ Buddhist principles and, to an even greater extent, Taoist principles but imagine, if you can, the potential self-conflict you yourself would experience if you had to pay someone £80 (approx $104) to come into your house for a day knowing that she was a thief, going through all your drawers, all your cupboards, stealing trousers, shirts, pullovers (for her partner), bedding, food and utensils and personal items - imagine how long you would tolerate it.

peterg · Jul 6, 2016

I'd go with Lynn's ''The Classic of Changes'' on this one.
Fifth Yin is fortunate because it gets assistance from all the other lines due to its noble position, a position normally associated with achievements. However it is too soft and yielding and lacks the hardness needed to deal with the situation. (More about that in the wings Xi Ci Zhuan Part2 Chapter 9).
As a weak line riding on a strong line, it is incapable of controlling the line below, which is strong and advancing and coming to harm fifth yin. Wang Bi reads the fourth yang as the head of rebellion, severed in the top line.

Lynn is a free download at Labirinto Ermetico but without the vital introductory chapters, and reviewed at Biroco. Its a translation of the I Ching as interpreted by Wang Bi and has contributions from other early commentators. Missing are the introduction, General remarks by Wang, and a translation with commentaries of most of the ten wings. On the other hand the extremely well bound Columbia edition hardback book is very cheap second hand.

Curiously, the Yilin verse on this also seems to refer to a lack of mastery of the situation.The verse is 31>30 viewable at the Chinese Text Project. Hexagram 31 is the hexagram of the day from thread date June 29th and applying the Yilin lunar method at Lise Yijing. It goes something like ' No mastery through speech. Bewitched and baffled, losing the dao.'

As a soft touch who gives out micro loans I can sympatise with the cleaner who might be depending on the job, or not. But I have learned to say no I'd rather not, when it just goes on and on, and the conversations become stressful. People who are daring or 'blind' enough to take advantage are not easily put off by lame words and explanations.

peter2610 · Jul 7, 2016

Many thanks peterg, yes I have the Columbia I Ching and value it highly but for some reason on this reading I ended up "locked" into the Wilhelm translation. Having now read the Lynn text I would say that it is clearer and more applicable in this context. The upward surge of 4th yang that fifth yin finds hard to repel is equivalent to my repeated urge to dismiss my cleaner. My early readings on this topic all urged me to persevere and endure the situation but in recent weeks my will has wavered. This ties-in perfectly with the Yilin observation of "Losing the Dao" and loss of mastery - that is exactly how it felt. So the way forward remains one of prolonged perseverance and I'll get back to you and everyone else as this resolves.

peterg · Jul 29, 2016

peter2610
Initally I thought your take on the situation was way off, but now I'm not so sure about that.
I've had the uneasy feeling that the text of fourth yang doesn't fit the cleaner. It does however fit my earlier post.
30.4
'Suddenly it appears, blazing, ending, cast aside.
It does not fit in.'
Now, I'd go with the trend of the oracle and and your own instincts, as described earlier.

Is the problem in the question?
Have you thought about asking for an 'Image of the cleaner', and then arrive at your own conclusions, rather than asking 'Should I sack the cleaner'. You can't ask the oracle to make a decision for you.

The situation reminds me somewhat of a story by Una Power (Clairvoyant Secrets).
A well dressed man bearing the Financial Times consulted her. He confessed he couldn't read and the paper was just for show, since he was there on an honest errand, and she seemed to have him sized up anyway.
He asked her about an employee he suspected of stealing from him, his lover's son, whom she thought the world of.
She laid out some cards but didn't even look at them, they were just a prop. She fell into a trance and said what she saw. He was very fond of the lady. She described the son, saw him go into an office, to the coat behind the door, and take the money.'
That was it. He said she might have been there, the way she described it.
She asked if he would sack the son. But he said 'No. I had his measure from the beginning. It was just that I couldn't bear the thought that one of my own had taken the money.'

Should I no longer employ my occasional cleaner? 30,5 -- 13

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