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but not the expression 'mere fortune telling', which is pejorative, but just that the elders did not need it for philosophy or cultivation, just for divination,
I consider the Zhouyi to be more of a psychological work, rather than philosophical. It maps situations and the intent in them, and relates these to how we psychologically deal with that. If it were a philosophical work, it would present a world view. That however, is not made explicit in the Zhouyi.
I suppose that some of the wings can be considered philosophical, though.
I consider the Zhouyi to be more of a psychological work, rather than philosophical. It maps situations and the intent in them, and relates these to how we psychologically deal with that. If it were a philosophical work, it would present a world view. That however, is not made explicit in the Zhouyi.
I suppose that some of the wings can be considered philosophical, though.
I can't yet see how psychology can exist without a philosophical model.
Sorry you can't see it yet. We'll wait while you look some more.
So, what you're saying is that philosophy is implicit, while I said that philosophy is not explicit. Not being explicit, it's not a philosophical work.I can't yet see how psychology can exist without a philosophical model.
Why would intent not be a psychological aspect? Without understanding of intent there's no psychological understanding possible, as far as I'm concerned.Sans intent, I could understand the work as psychology, but as soon as intent is implied, there must be a philosophical line of thought to know what that (supposed) intent is.
If we look at this part, the hexagrams, I think Mun is right. Originally it does not seem to have any philosophy in it, a philosophy was attached to it in later times. But the Yijing is more than that. The Zhouyi combined with the Ten Wings makes up the Yijing, and that combination definitely contains a closed, complete philosophy.
I believe they both walk holding hands. They complement each other. Funny also how this distinction can bring "some" of our opinions closer to what Chris Lofting has been preaching for years.
PS: Brad, I hear you. I'm almost positive that regardless of age at the time of my death, I'll go down with a lot of clues and ideas but no conclusions on the Yi... Sometimes I believe the Yi is one of those shape-shifting animals one encounters among the nahuales...
rich metaphor Luis.
So, what you're saying is that philosophy is implicit, while I said that philosophy is not explicit. Not being explicit, it's not a philosophical work.
Why would intent not be a psychological aspect? Without understanding of intent there's no psychological understanding possible, as far as I'm concerned.
Well, I can agree that there's a philosophy behind the Zhouyi. A psychological philosophy, .
While the autors of the Zhouyi were likely to have a philosophy from which they composed the text, or one might even derive a philosophy from studying the Zhouyi, that doesn't make the Zhouyi in itself a philosophical work.It maps situations and the intent in them, and relates these to how we psychologically deal with that.
I somehow find the dictionary entry Sparhawk posted from Webster's not particularly clear, and perhaps even ambiguous. What Sparhawk finds applicable is exceptionally broad, stretching the meanings of the word a lot.
Dictionary.com's Unabridged works better for me:
Sparhawk said:Well, we haven't been able to answer all the questions related to the Bible, so, who's to know what was in the minds of the writers, or compilers, of the Zhouyi, really? Nevertheless, I would refer this person to the dictionary's definition of "philosophy." Regardless of original intention, minimalist views and revisionism, the fact remains that "philosophy" has been attached to the Yijing for millennia. If Plato, in his dialogue "Timaeus", was able to attach a whole set of philosophical precepts to the five solids named after him--solids that had been known to neolithic people for at least a thousand years before the birth of Plato--, how much philosophy can one derive from a system like the Yi?
Sparhawk said:HMesker said:If we look at this part, the hexagrams, I think Mun is right. Originally it does not seem to have any philosophy in it, a philosophy was attached to it in later times. But the Yijing is more than that. The Zhouyi combined with the Ten Wings makes up the Yijing, and that combination definitely contains a closed, complete philosophy.
Yes, I agree and is what I tried to say. If commentary seniority is any indication of "philosophy", then "philosophy" has been a part of the Yi for over two thousand years. I don't care the least if the original intention of the designers of the system, some ___________ (fill-in-the-blank) thousands of years ago, was a way to figure out the timing for wars or harvests. There is enough history and commentary attached to the Yi to warrant saying that the "Yijing" is a philosophical work.
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).