April 2nd, 2007, 06:17 PM
Luis, thanks for posting the broader definitions.
The longer I'm in the Yi, the less philosophically orthodox I perceive it. But that just amounts to constructing my own philosophy about it and from it. It's the old three blindfolded people defining the elephant trick, me thinks.
April 2nd, 2007, 06:31 PM
I mean, if you take it back to it's source, before duality of yin/yang or up and down, or black and white, it all goes back to the same unexplainable void, from which all else arises and withdraws.
But that's just my philosophy.
April 3rd, 2007, 01:11 AM
That's only one of em.
noun the scientific study of the human mind and its functions,
esp. those affecting behavior in a given context.
[in sing. ] the mental and emotional factors governing a situation or activity
April 3rd, 2007, 07:42 AM
I somehow find the dictionary entry Sparhawk posted from Webster's not particularly clear, and perhaps even ambiguous. What Sparhawk finds applicable is exceptionally broad, stretching the meanings of the word a lot.
Dictionary.com's Unabridged works better for me:
1, 2 and 4 are about philosophy as a branch of science, the Yi obviously isn't.
- the rational investigation of the truths and principles of being, knowledge, or conduct.
- any of the three branches, namely natural philosophy, moral philosophy, and metaphysical philosophy, that are accepted as composing this study.
- a system of philosophical doctrine: the philosophy of Spinoza.
- the critical study of the basic principles and concepts of a particular branch of knowledge, esp. with a view to improving or reconstituting them: the philosophy of science.
- a system of principles for guidance in practical affairs.
- a philosophical attitude, as one of composure and calm in the presence of troubles or annoyances.
Being philosophical, as in 6, is also something different.
While it may seem that the Yi is like 5, it isn't. 5 is about the use as in "His philosophy was not to interfere," "He has an unusual philosophy of life," "Self-indulgence was his only philosophy," "My father's philosophy of child-rearing was to let mother do it." This is a different use of the word.
The question is really whether the Yi is a philosophy as in 3.
The Zhouyi isn't, some of the wings are.
April 3rd, 2007, 08:12 AM
With 1, 2 and 4 you get egg roll.
I find your reasoning most unreasonable. How can anyone who has spent considerable time in the Yijing even suggest that it is not a rational investigation of the truths and principles of being, knowledge, or conduct? Is not a natural (nature based) philosophy? Is not a critical study of the basic principles and concepts of a particular branch of knowledge, esp. with a view to improving or reconstituting them? To me, that is precisely what the Yijing is.
April 3rd, 2007, 08:21 AM
Well, Bruce, that's because as a translator of the Yi and other works, I'm very precise about what words really mean. I guard against stretching the meanings of words to fit with what I like to see.
April 3rd, 2007, 09:50 AM
What "precise" word or words would you use to describe the Yijing?
April 3rd, 2007, 11:19 AM
You seem to be asking me to repeat something I already said, Bruce.
While the autors of the Zhouyi were likely to have a philosophy from which they composed the text, or one might even derive a philosophy from studying the Zhouyi, that doesn't make the Zhouyi in itself a philosophical work.
Originally Posted by ewald
That the authors of the Zhouyi did a "rational investigation of the truths and principles of being, knowledge, or conduct" to base the text on, doesn't in itself make the Zhouyi a philosophical work.
"...critical study of the basic principles and concepts of a particular branch of knowledge" relates to a field called philosophy of science. Popper is the most well-known author here.
April 3rd, 2007, 03:23 PM
So, let me see if I understand this right: you pick and choose dictionaries to fit your concept of the words? And in doing this you prefer a dictionary that's been around, on the Net, since 1996 as opposed to an online version of a dictionary that's been on shelves since 1841? I grant you, the bastards use "z" instead of "s" and paraphrasing John Cleese of "Monty Python": "The letter 'U' should be reinstated in words such as 'colour', 'favour' and 'neighbour.' Likewise, you will learn to spell 'doughnut' without skipping half the letters, and the suffix "ize" will be replaced by the suffix "ise." You will learn that the suffix 'burgh' is pronounced 'burra'; you may elect to respell Pittsburgh as 'Pittsberg' if you find you simply can't cope with correct pronunciation." The dictionaries, per se, are not dubious, but the practice of selecting those that resonate with our views, just to make a point, it is. When I selected the definition of M-W is because it is a Firefox tool. I use it all the time, by default, for everything; not because I like its definitions better than those of other dictionaries...
Originally Posted by ewald
And what I find applicable is the precise definition of the word, in all its meanings; that's why the definitions are in the dictionary. I'm am a translator myself, and have been for almost 20 years, so, even though I understand and empathize with what you are saying about precise meanings for words, the argument doesn't fly too high.
Going back to the Yijing, methinks we are blowing hot air only for the sake of argument and defending our entrenched opinions. I made a distinction in the third message of this thread:
And then this to answer Harmen's view, with whom I fully agree about making a difference between the "Zhouyi" and the "Yijing":
Originally Posted by Sparhawk
I also liked --and said so in another message-- your view of the Yi being a "psychological" work. However, I don't think there is a dichotomy to be found here. The arguments of both, "philosophy" and "psychology", as applied to any thought system, come from the same source. Forcing an exclusionary distinction is splitting hairs, really.
Originally Posted by Sparhawk
Last edited by sparhawk; April 3rd, 2007 at 03:37 PM.
April 3rd, 2007, 04:18 PM
Luis, indeed, the M-W definitions of "philosophy" seemed a bit old fashioned to me. I have both M-W and Dictionary.com as a Firefox tool, and have been comparing them for a couple of years. I prefer the clarity of Dictionary.com's Unabridged. Yes, I have preferences among dictionaries. The older ones aren't necessarily the better ones, or the ones up to date with modern usage.
It doesn't seem you noted that I have been careful to differentiate between Zhouyi and the Wings (before Harmen made a distinction between Zhouyi and Yijing, btw).