June 4th, 2008, 05:40 AM
Hexagram Signs In Bamboo Slips
June 6th, 2008, 09:47 PM
hi Sergio ... thanks for your posting of this uptodate article
New to me is, that the number nine now is found in six-digit hexagrams, number ten in three-digit trigrams and the numbers two, three, four in eight six-digit hexagrams (mentioned in a footnote).
New to me (and maybe others) is too the bamboo slips of Geling Xincai. I found this description:
The bamboo slips concerning divination excavated at Geling Village , Xincai County , Henan Province recorded the hexagram lines and the line statements. This paper attempts to analyze the line statements by images, through which we find that the line statements tally with the images. This approach can also be found in Zuo's Commentaries on the Spring and Autumn Annals and Guo yu (Remarks of Monarchs), from which we can learn that people in then the Chu area in the Warring States period adopted the divination methods by the Zhouyi , which are in alignment to the divination methods used in the Spring and Autumn period. Since the line statements in the bamboo slips manuscript can not be found in the received version of the Zhouyi , they should derive from another kind of version being transmitted at that time.
The Geling Xincai and Baoshan bamboo slips might be of same nature, because they both consist of hexagram pairs made by four numbers, while the Jianggling Tianxingguan bamboo slips consist of hexagram pairs made by five numbers? The three groups of hexagram pairs are resulted from actual divination, but were they all related to other divination manuals than the Zhouyi?
June 7th, 2008, 02:13 AM
Glad you like it,I knew you would when I saw it.I am still in the process of "digesting"the paper(I know paper is hard ti digest,Luis)but what I read so far looks a bit speculative.At the same time I am reading "Researches on the I Ching:by Iulian Shutskii(hope I got it right and he pointed out that some scholars theorize that the Yi is an extension of a former oracle comprised of pentagrams not hexagrams.Apparently the sixth line was a Chou improvement.Got to go back to my Perpetual Bubblewrap!...
June 14th, 2008, 12:21 AM
Originally Posted by sergio
Migh you post some quotes from Shutsky?
I believe that the YI, as stuff for interpreting yarrow oracles, had its origins in oral literacy and memorious practitioners, and that maybe yarrow casting had earlier origins than Shang Turtle Oracles.
Arrow divination is found among primitive people and casting cowries among african primitives (1).
Maybe binary YES/NO oracles begin throwing a bone (2) or a cowry shell and multiple binary oracles begin with the practice of throwing one time and another until the desired answer is got. Surely that sort of trick is very ancient. That's why the YI warns «no more than twice».
Don't you trust?
Mr. Li reads a bronze inscription
(1) Also among american-africans in our own times.
(2) In my country folklore there is a game called «taba». The «taba» is a bone that can fall with a face called «cara» (face) up or another called «culo» (bottom) up, like a coin.
Last edited by charly; June 14th, 2008 at 12:40 AM.
June 17th, 2008, 05:05 AM
First my apologies for the delay in answering but I just got back from a week long Ba Gua Zhang training camp at the Catskill mountains.(a great experience indeed).Shchutskii deals at length with the I Ching as an ancient text examining its structure both textually and semantycally,its origins,its history,authorship and its huge commentatory tradition not only Chinese but Japanese as well.In Part II,chapter 1 he examins the monolithic nature of the text .In what he calls the most ancient layer of the text he tackles the phrase Yuan Heng L i Yen which he claims is a mantic formula part of a much older oral tradition.( He studies the language and usages of words in different times to identify the dates the different layers of the Yi were written,much like saying "cool"is late XX early XXI century language and "groovy"more 60's lenguage usage.)So by determining what those older mantic formulae are and where they appeared in the text he determines that they only appeared in 32 hexagrams.He then goes on to say that"-.. Chu Shi in his book Science of the I Ching for beginners develops an entire theory ...of the gradual increase of the lines in the symbols of the Book of Changes,a)two symbols of one line,b)four symbols of two lines,c)eigth symbols of three lines,d)sixteen symbols of four lines,e)thirty two symbols of five lines,f)sixty four symbols of six lines.Thus the 64 hexagrams could be produced from 32 symbols composed of 5 lines each to which one line was added,yang or yin.Naito was inclined to think that the older layers of the Book of Change was composed of symbols made up of five or fewer lines but not six.From this considerations it might follow that at some time before the appearance of the 64 hexagrams and their texts there were only 32 symbols of 5 lines;to these symbols then was added the corresponding text which in a significantly expanded form became the Boof of Changes we know.However,no matter how attractive this hypothesis,is it true?"
Tune in tomorrow for more.....(I am really tire right now and,since I don't have a scanner....you get the idea...)
June 17th, 2008, 07:31 PM
Originally Posted by sergio
Which one of the six hexagram lines is the added line?
June 17th, 2008, 10:23 PM
It's the sixth line, but this detail will become more obvious in my next quote from Shchustkii's book.
June 18th, 2008, 01:02 AM
Thanks, very much, Sergio:
Originally Posted by sergio
In the web there is no much stuff about Schutskii aports. I believe tha's credible the evolution fron binary divination to more complex forms. but what facts hold the idea of progressing one line at a time?
Till now I believed that first was the binary divination (2 symbols), in a middle stage was the Ba Gua (8 symbols) trigrams that later doubled produced the 64 hexagrams, say the YI evolved jumping from one line symbols to three line symbols and to six line symbols.
I never saw two-line symbols, fourth-line nor five-line symbols. You do?
But about the results recorded using numerals I understood that always were trigrams or hexagrams but recorded using a variable stock of numerals of wich only matters if odd or even, yin or yang.
Five numeral hexagrams, I understood, are hexagrams described using a sequence of six numerals from a whole of five. For unknown reasons some available numerical characters were not used. Maybe I misunderstood the texts due to lack of pictures.
I wonder what will provide us the destiny with Schutskii surveys.
The first source of my ideas was LiSe page quoting Rutt:
June 19th, 2008, 12:19 AM
You are welcome.Yes,I've seen the symbols.There is a lot of excellent information about the four emblems(the two line combinations of yin & yang)in Bradford's site.They represent many things, among them the four seasons,i.e. yang/yang-summer(strong yang)-yin below/yang above-fall(lesser yang)-yin/yin-winter(strong yin)-yang below/yin above-spring(lesser yang).They also represent wood-fire-water and metal. Regarding the four lines groups, they are the core of the nuclear hexagrams.If you add one line on top and another at bottom then you have the hexagrams as we know them.It's significance is less documented than the four emblems as it is its use in divination.Much of that is related to Jing Fan's work which is unfortunately lost.Harmen Mesker wrote an excellent paper on this subject which is as best as you can get on this subject.
I see this progressions mostly as a logical and simple way of combining two symbols and develop them to sustain a certain philosophy with the explanations attached to it as they unfold.Shchuskii's take on the 5 line symbols was more related to mantic formulas that might be attached to them since the number of hexagrams containing them was 32 which is also the number of possible combination of 5 lines.But upon examination that idea was disproved-there is no correlation between the two.Whatever meaning or significance was attached to the 5 line line symbols is lost in history once again;we can only speculate but so far the only reference to them I found was in a book translated by Jean Huon de Kermadec called "Heavenly Pennies".He says that this is a more common form of divination used for more mundane issues-the hexagrams been reserved for more important and profound issues.All of it extremely interesting .To me a system based on 5 lines would be a more philosophically logical one from the Chinese perspective hence the importance of the number 5.Each line would perfectly fit one of the elements for example,the top line would be obviously the most important in position-the highest_and of course ,the emperor's line.
Anyway,there many divination system,too numerous and varied to mention.The Greek divining with entrails,for example among the most weird(and gruesome).But that is another story....
June 19th, 2008, 05:17 PM