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Thread: The future?

  1. #1
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    Question The future?

    In my relatively short time here, I've read several opinions on using the IC to foretell the future. I'm on the fence about this, as I struggle (have always struggled) between the concepts of fate and free will creating one's fate. This is an ongoing debate in my head

    This morning, I posted about a very critical court date I have today, of which I'm nervous and fearful as to the outcome. Given my own indecisiveness regarding fate vs. fortune telling, I haven't before attempted to use the IC to get answers regarding the future. Today though, I asked the outcome of this court. I received a pretty positive response.
    I'm very curious to hear what the thoughts are regarding using the IC in this manner?

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by kdedeaux4 View Post
    In my relatively short time here, I've read several opinions on using the IC to foretell the future. I'm on the fence about this, as I struggle (have always struggled) between the concepts of fate and free will creating one's fate. This is an ongoing debate in my head

    This morning, I posted about a very critical court date I have today, of which I'm nervous and fearful as to the outcome. Given my own indecisiveness regarding fate vs. fortune telling, I haven't before attempted to use the IC to get answers regarding the future. Today though, I asked the outcome of this court. I received a pretty positive response.
    I'm very curious to hear what the thoughts are regarding using the IC in this manner?
    Hi KD,

    I think you should be commended for having the humility to approach the Yi in such a way. I tend to ask the Yi about things which are more process-based rather than the "what will happen...?" kind of question although I do sometimes ask the latter. If you ask about an outcome then I suppose it really depends on your intention. It's a very personal thing. If you are nervous and fearful about this court case outcome then knowing the result beforehand may give you peace of mind or the ability to prepare for negative consequences. Either way, I think in cases like this there's no harm in tentatively asking the Yi for an appraisal imo.

    Topal
    "Take the understanding of the East and the knowledge of the West and then seek." G.I.Gurdjieff

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by kdedeaux4 View Post
    In my relatively short time here, I've read several opinions on using the IC to foretell the future. I'm on the fence about this, as I struggle (have always struggled) between the concepts of fate and free will creating one's fate. This is an ongoing debate in my head

    This morning, I posted about a very critical court date I have today, of which I'm nervous and fearful as to the outcome. Given my own indecisiveness regarding fate vs. fortune telling, I haven't before attempted to use the IC to get answers regarding the future. Today though, I asked the outcome of this court. I received a pretty positive response.
    I'm very curious to hear what the thoughts are regarding using the IC in this manner?
    I ask the IC in this manner sometimes. I find if an outcome is not known then its quite clear as in one tends to get a 'figure it out for yourself'..or 'not known' type answer. Other times it seems predictive. RE the play between fate and freewill, maybe its just when enough factors are 'in place' regarding an issue the Yi from its perspective can show us. Perhaps there a certain tipping point of balance where a certain event becomes more or less likley. When 'likley' beomes 'certain' I don't know. Also its probably worth bearing in mind we can misinterpret...so even though you get a positive auspice for the case its still wise to do your best (whatever that entails) Whats the muslim saying ...something like "Trust in Allah but tie your camel"

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by kdedeaux4 View Post
    I struggle (have always struggled) between the concepts of fate and free will creating one's fate. This is an ongoing debate in my head
    Were you aware that this is Descartes fault, not yours?

    Much of what that philosopher wrote was good (we have him to thank for the scientific method amongst other things), but he did make a mistake here and there. Philosophers ever since have wrestled with problems like fate and free will or whether mind and matter are the same or different. They are problems because the conclusion the philosophy points to is patently absurd, but he's such an influential figure it's not easy for people to accept his ideas weren't all perfect.

    Martin Heidegger offered a correction to Descartes in 1927, in a book "Being and Time". Following his line of thinking, these issues simply don't arise. This shows they are artifacts of how we see things (our worldview) rather than issues that are there in reality. [So your head is debating an illusion , which might explain why it hasn't found the answer?] Maybe you have heard of Eckhart Tolle (wrote "The Power of Now")? Tolle and Heidegger share the same view. Things like mind/matter dualism aren't a problem for Tolle either.

    But in case you can't be bothered to look them up, try this. Why can't it be both fate and free will? Each moment we face a number of possible actions: seeds for several alternative futures. Heidegger suggests "understanding" our situation involves matching each possible action with our current situation to see how good a "fit" it is. There is usually one that fits best. So we face any moment with a propensity to do one thing rather than another; and if we don't rock the boat, that's what will happen. However, we don't have to. We are quite capable of making more effort and choosing a lesser "fit" if we want. Here is "free will", comfortably sitting alongside "determinism".

    But back to important stuff . Good luck with your court judgement. I know what it's like. Not pleasant having to face something immovable, out of our hands, yet that powerfully (and intimately) affecting us. At least you'll know. I hope it goes well for you and it will be easy to move forward.
    Christopher

  5. #5
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    Default Thank you:-)

    Topal: Thank you for your kind words I do try to hold certain wisdoms in reverence and honor and try not to attempt to bend or use them for my own personal "stuff", unless it's regarding my evolution as a human being, but heck, sometimes when I'm just scared, it sure would be nice to have a little peek into the future so I might better prepare myself

    Trojan: "Trust in Allah, but tie your camel" ...I love it! That is now my new motto! I'd definitely like to find that elusive "tipping point" so I can make radical last-minute changes (in my fate and/or my choices)

    Java: No, I wasn't fully aware of Descartes responsibility in my perpetual debate of illusion, although after you explained it I seemed to vaguely recall a bit of his blame in this. I love reading Eckart Tolle, but haven't gotten to The Power of Now yet. It's on my to-read list though! You made me feel decidely better about being a fence-sitter on this subject (thank you!). It seems when I'm frightened, I somehow feel calmer thinking fate has it all planned anyway and I'm just an actor in the scene. It feels comforting to think all the "big" things might already decided (thus, I'M not responsible) ....and yet, at times feeling powerless is frightening in itself and I prefer to believe more like Tolle, that I choose my destiny and manifest it in every moment. Guess it depends on my state of mind in the moment more than anything...do I wish to feel powerful and in control or do I want someone else to drive for awhile so I can relax and just go with the flow...... I'm wishy-washy with this so I often lean toward whatever feels best at the time. However, I do feel that I need to decide what I believe and stick with that either way, as it's more of a cop-out otherwise And I really like the idea of a little bit of both...now, do I get to choose which is when?

    At any rate, thank you all so much for responding! This is a topic that fascinates me, as well as new way of looking at the possibilities of the IC! Court actually went well all things considered, so in that, I now know the IC certainly didn't deceive me this morning, but I also believe my frame of mind (as well as a positive reading from IC perhaps?) may have helped that matter along...
    Thank you all again for your encouraging and thoughtful responses!!
    ~Namaste~

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by javalava View Post
    Were you aware that this is Descartes fault, not yours?

    Much of what that philosopher wrote was good (we have him to thank for the scientific method amongst other things), but he did make a mistake here and there. Philosophers ever since have wrestled with problems like fate and free will or whether mind and matter are the same or different. They are problems because the conclusion the philosophy points to is patently absurd, but he's such an influential figure it's not easy for people to accept his ideas weren't all perfect.

    Martin Heidegger offered a correction to Descartes in 1927, in a book "Being and Time". Following his line of thinking, these issues simply don't arise. This shows they are artifacts of how we see things (our worldview) rather than issues that are there in reality. [So your head is debating an illusion , which might explain why it hasn't found the answer?] Maybe you have heard of Eckhart Tolle (wrote "The Power of Now")? Tolle and Heidegger share the same view. Things like mind/matter dualism aren't a problem for Tolle either.

    But in case you can't be bothered to look them up, try this. Why can't it be both fate and free will? Each moment we face a number of possible actions: seeds for several alternative futures. Heidegger suggests "understanding" our situation involves matching each possible action with our current situation to see how good a "fit" it is. There is usually one that fits best. So we face any moment with a propensity to do one thing rather than another; and if we don't rock the boat, that's what will happen. However, we don't have to. We are quite capable of making more effort and choosing a lesser "fit" if we want. Here is "free will", comfortably sitting alongside "determinism".

    But back to important stuff . Good luck with your court judgement. I know what it's like. Not pleasant having to face something immovable, out of our hands, yet that powerfully (and intimately) affecting us. At least you'll know. I hope it goes well for you and it will be easy to move forward.
    That is a very interesting grouping of philosophers who names you just dropped.I know a little about these guys.Heidegger I was especially interested in for a few moments,I don't really believe the Nazi branding stuff but I abandoned him before reading being and time because I kind of got the general point filed it for use,and got beyond phenomenology on to Idealism in general.Heidegger seemed from what I could see to basically take Husserls phenomenology and amalgamate it with some type of pseudo Shugendo type practice.But anyway I remember three h names that make the area confusing Hegel Husserl and Hiedegger.I can't remeber but Heidegger's thoughts seemed a little avant garde I might favor Husserl's points though more rigorous and technical if just to get the clear principle out of it.He is the one who started the movement in the first place and taught Heidegger.I have a feeling about Allot of the philosophy that came out of the time from Descartes through till the early 20th century maybe even before him but for certain after him that a great amount of Academic knowledge that we consider to be staple and classical stuff acually was stolen rehashed and inspired by eastern philosophy and thought the occult and Asian thought being considered exotic at those times.For instance Husserls phenomenology smecks of gnostisim.What do you think?
    Any way back to the point Master huang says in a section called present information about future potential in his translation of The I ching:"When people Consult the I ching,they want to know their future potential as well as their present circumstances.These two are closely related.We are living in a time of profound change.If we except that every action we take is a cause that has an effect and every effect has a cause,we can more clearly see the results of our actions.The Intention behind each action determines its effect.Our intentions and our actions effect not only ourselves but also others.If we believe the every intention and action evolves as we progress on our spiritual journey,then if we act consciously we evolve consciously,but if we act unconsciously we involve unconsciously.
    In this book,each interpretation of the yao is not limited to the present situation .It is associated with the "Approached gua,"which indicates the future potential or tendency.At the beginning of the interpretation of every line,there is information about where the line will lead if it changes."
    Last edited by joezoe; January 13th, 2009 at 08:23 AM.

  7. #7

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    But I mean I couldn't have said that more clearly and caringly myself if I tried.
    By the way
    Ye sometimes Descarte seems to let loose a stinker,but I have to say it never ceases to suprise me how prolific he was in general.
    \you know Hilary Putnam's multiple relizabilty inline with Luwig wittgenstein's linguist critisms of syntaxual fallacy Javavlava is referring to in general might help take a look at Godels incompleteness theorems for a meta-mathmatic solution.lol.These scientismists positivists realists reductionists and pragmatists are word wizards.Wittgenstein used to turn his back to the people in the Vienna circle and refuse to talk about his book because they got under his skin.
    Last edited by joezoe; January 13th, 2009 at 08:45 AM.

  8. #8
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    In general, one may cast the Yi upon any question you may choose (or at least think you chose) and get an oracle in response. That oracle is always an instantaneous snapshot describing the perceived state of things at the time of your casting. Even the act of casting the Oracle may make things change overall. Expecting a hard and fast result in the future from an Oracle tends, like all expectations, to be a source of difficulty.

    More to the point, you were worried about your court appearance, the Oracle cast settled you some and quieted your fears and in that calmer state the events in court turned out reasonably well for you. That is what an Oracle is all about.

    Freewill and Determinism is a medieval Scholastic question that arises mostly from quibbles between those interpreting Scripture as saying humans make their own mistakes vs. those saying that All is known and determined by God. The more interesting perspective upon the Yi is that it deals with the process of human perception in terms of 6 stages centered upon whoever is perceiving rather than abstract, objective conclusions or results of any kind.

    Frank
    I Ching hexagram meaning from line structure
    and King Wen Sequence Explained: www.stars-n-dice.com/fluxtome.html
    Learn astrology meaning of signs, houses, planets from just the dot-number patterns on the dice cube:http://www.stars-n-dice.com/learnastrology.html
    New Yi Oracle Perspective:http://www.stars-n-dice.com/vaginaliching.html

  9. #9

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    I usually spend my time lurking around the Reading Circle but I feel quite strongly about this, so just thought I'd add my 2c for anyone who doesn't mind a waffle .

    I believe that using an oracle for asking the future can collapse possibilities and I'm not sure that's always a good thing. I didn't always think that way, but I had one experience that made me more definite about it. It happened last year, when I was going through a very difficult time in my life. Someone I trusted offered their help, quite out the blue, with a decision I had to make. Her help was in the form of a Tarot reading. She is not in the habit of offering readings like that, so when it was offered I gratefully said yes because I felt I needed help in seeing what was going on with my life.

    The reading was all very accurate ... a card came out showing a decision needing to be made. Apologies for not knowing the card names, I'm not familiar with Tarot, but it showed a woman in between two men as I recall. Apparently the two men symbolised the two decisions. As the reading went on, it showed the death card (that one I do remember!) around one decision, meaning there was no future in it. With the other decision, the cards showed a long and slow process, but one that would reap rewards. I guess one decision was like hex23, and the other decision was like hex53.

    I had free will to take the offer of the Tarot reading. I take 100% responsibility for that. However, my vulnerability caused me to not be really thinking straight. In my confusion and hope for some certainty at a time of huge change, I applied the labels 'dead' and 'not dead' in a particular way that seemed to factually make sense at the time to myself and the Tarot reader. Intuitively though, the labels didn't sit with me, they were the opposite way around. That's where the reading confused me. Knowing the way I am, I believe that if I hadn't had the reading, I would probably have eventually gone with my intuition, which was to go with the opposite way of looking at the decisions.

    The thing that I would hate anyone else to go through is that I still wonder did I make the right decision . I still wonder how different my life could be now if I'd gone with the other decision, and that's hard, I'll be honest! I'm not blaming the Tarot, it was my decision to agree to the reading. However, I do not want that kind of question mark hanging over me because of an oracle, so I'm now very careful about asking about the future.

    In relation to the iChing, my rule of thumb when casting is to think of the hexagram(s) I don't want, and if I really can handle a reading like that. If I feel up to the absolute honesty of the iChing, I'll cast. Otherwise I'll leave it. Sometimes doing that alone leads me into possibilities I hadn't looked at before.

    I also must say that the iChing has never ever given me a reading that I couldn't handle, or that I subsequently doubted. Maybe that's also down to how cautious I am since my Tarot experience, but nonetheless, I've used it for insight into many situations since then, and it has never put me wrong.

    Applegirl

  10. #10
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    As the reading went on, it showed the death card (that one I do remember!) around one decision, meaning there was no future in it. With the other decision, the cards showed a long and slow process, but one that would reap rewards. I guess one decision was like hex23, and the other decision was like hex53.
    I would interpret your reading, in terms of Tarot or the Yi as pointing up the problems of taking one's interpretation too seriously and using that interpretation as a substitute for decision making. The Death card doesn't refer to a dead end any more than hex 23 means only current loss. They both refer to a transition to the Next. Hex 23, structurally is exactly that--five open yin places with the only Yang focus being the final line place of the transition from this situation to the next. Similarly, the Death card refers to the Occult notion of death as the transition from the current situation to a new and different one. Toward the end of my first year of law school, a classmate who was having a terrible time getting his studying obsession to work out drew a single Tarot card to the question how does he get onto the Law Review. The next year, when he was on Law Review, he commented to me that he did indeed have to let go totally of all the things he expected the prior year in order to get it together to actually make law review.

    Hex 53 (Diamond Cutting or Gradual Progress) also does not guarantee a good result. It represents the opportunity to put all your preparation and effort into some ultimate process which is only assured of showing you what you have accomplished--the diamond may shatter to dust as well as be beautifully cut.

    Another way to look at your Tarot judgment is that you sought advice on a major either-or decision and chose to take whichever answer the Tarot seemed to offer you. The psychologists version of this is to suggest in such either-or decisions to simply flip a coin. However, they know better than to just do whatever the coin toss head or tails suggests. They say you will either feel the coin toss solved your issue or you will feel dissatisfied with that option. Clearly, then you want to do the other one.

    At this point, all that matters is you continuing doubts that maybe you shouldn't have just done what the Tarot seemed to suggest. One view of this is that if you had serious qualms at the time you would not have just gone with that judgment as noted above the Tarot cards do not state that you had only one good option. You had two, one that would unfold slowly over time and the other that would require that you make the situation all new and different.

    What you describe is being in a situation back then, where you accepted your Tarot-reading friends advice including her interpretation and thus did what she suggested was the judgment of the Tarot. If you wonder about if that were a good thing back then, I would suggest the question is not about asking for future outcomes from Tarot or Yi, but of turning over your decision making to friends who offer you that service.

    Frank
    I Ching hexagram meaning from line structure
    and King Wen Sequence Explained: www.stars-n-dice.com/fluxtome.html
    Learn astrology meaning of signs, houses, planets from just the dot-number patterns on the dice cube:http://www.stars-n-dice.com/learnastrology.html
    New Yi Oracle Perspective:http://www.stars-n-dice.com/vaginaliching.html

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