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The Bible and Yi

noxlux

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Hi!

A friend pointed out today that both the yi and the bible starts with the sequence: 1)heaven and 2)earth.

He found this to be compelling evidence that there must be a connection between the two writings.

Is there?

Nozluz

P.S. btw I also remember stumbling across a quote in the old testament wherein the old testament god sounds more or less just like dao - when one takes the quote at face value that is. Does anyone know whereof I speak, and is able to provide a reference? D.S.
 

Sparhawk

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He found this to be compelling evidence that there must be a connection between the two writings.

Is there?

Nozluz

Oh my, for the last couple of weeks I've been arguing with an evangelical/prophetical zealot on Twitter about his idea that the Yijing was begot by the Bible and one of his "compelling" examples was that "well, take Noah and wife and his family and there you'll have the 8 trigrams" :eek: Please, don't go down that road here; this is longer than 140 characters at the time... :D

I don't mind people finding correspondences and coincidences between the two texts but there's no way that a lost Israeli tribe settled in China and gave the Yijing to the world. As for Heaven and Earth, anyone with all five senses intact can come up with metaphors of above and below and so on. Give the Chinese credit where credit is due and to the Jews what's theirs. Let's not mix them both in a genesis pot.

If you want to read an exhaustive book on those relationships, get yourself a copy of Joe E. McCaffree's 1982 book, "Bible and I Ching Relationships" It is out of print but a few copies are still available in Abebooks. He wrote that from the biblical Christian perspective and, so bound, he found all kinds of relationships. Fun read for those so inclined.


Cheers,
 
A

abdiel

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Hi Nozluz -

You might find this book interesting: "Embracing Change: Postmodern Interpretations of the I Ching from a Christian Perspective" by Jung Young Lee, University of Scranton Press, 1994, ISBN 0949866234.

Lee is a very serious Korean Christian thinker who likes to re-interpret Chinese philosophy in the light of contemporary Christian theology. Not for the faint-hearted.

Abdiel

A down-to-earth example of the kind of thing that can happen with the Yi: http://www.mcsletstalk.org/Vol2No111.htm
 
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Sparhawk

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You might find this book interesting: "Embracing Change: Postmodern Interpretations of the I Ching from a Christian Perspective" by Jung Young Lee, University of Scranton Press, 1994, ISBN 0949866234.

Yes, good recommendation for those that want to walk that connecting path. Prof. Lee has several books on that regard. I think I have all of them. And also Murphy, as Frank points out. McCaffree though is more specific in detail and is almost 500 pages of anecdotal minutia such as:

"The name given about four hundred years later during Moses leadership to the collective families of Dan was Shuham (shoo-khawm'), the people known as shoo-khawmee'. Because Moses' blessing calls Dan " lion's whelp" this opens up a possibility of allusion being intended to both Chinese and Egyptian. In Chinese is a relevant term with a sound similar to shoo. It is shih, "a lion." This graphic combined with another shih refers to the "stone lions at entrance gates." In Egypt one member of the Great Company of the Gods of Heliopolis was Shu. Shu was une of the Twin Lion-gods, the other being Tefnut. Budge observed that

As the god of the space which exist between the earth and the sky, Shu was represented under the form of a god who held up the sky with his two hands, one supporting at the place of sunrise, and the other at the place of sunset... In a picture given by Lanzone he grasps in his left hand a scorpion, a serpent, and a hawk-headed sceptre. [GoE, v.2, p 89]
I mean, whereas Lee's books are more from a contemporary Christian doctrine POV, McCaffree is that plus encyclopaedic biblical and historical connections a la Indiana Jones...
 
M

meng

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I often refer to the "red letter" (alleged) words of Jesus, as they agree with what I read in the IC. I can find and/or create correlations between the old and new testament bible and the IC all day long. But I don't believe one had any influence on the other, other than both originating from the same collective mind, applied locally through different cultural views. And in each of them are different schools of interpretation, such as the Confucian moral/ethical school vs the Daoist natural school, and the OT Law vs the NT Grace schools. But every human works with the same basic elements, and so naturally they're going to at least agree on those.
 

Sparhawk

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I can find and/or create correlations between the old and new testament bible and the IC all day long. But I don't believe one had any influence on the other, other than both originating from the same collective mind, applied locally through different cultural views.

Exactly how I think. Ye seek and ye shall find. :cool:
 
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meng

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The first of those agreements being: father/sky, mother/earth.
 

jeff

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In the famous words of Damon Wayons.........
uh.....................no!

(In reference to the initial question, "Is there?")

:rofl:
 

willowfox

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East is east and west is west and never the twain did meet.
 
M

meng

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Bible accounts originated in the east, or middle east, certainly closer to China than to the west.

The same happened with the Bible as with the IC, they both have been contextually misplaced: the cauldron's ears moved. Things tend to either become too rigid or too wishy washy when that happens. Finding the golden mean means a lot.
 

noxlux

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thank you for your reply

clarifying my position - i do not belong to any faith, i am just very interested in old layered texts with multiple meanings.

regarding yi and the bible I am not so interested in the possibility to view one through the lens of the other.

i would be very interested in any sort of historical connection. my knowledge of east west traderoutes during the first millenium bc is near to nil.

guess is that the reply by jeff ("no") is correct. would had been interesting if there was any valid hypothesis to the other possibility

atb
NoXlux:cool:
 

chacha1

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I know this thread is old but...

I know this thread is old but I'm happy that this subject was breached, and that it crossed my path. For years I have been consulting the Yi with a feeling of guilt because I didn't know if using divination in this way was in accordance with God's will. The only reason I kept doing it is because the Yi doesn't speak of evil behavior, but of being the best person one can be. I guess that is why I have never explored the finer points of researching the meanings of the Yi. All I ever knew was that it has been accurate on many occasions, I was just concerned about where the answers were coming from. Anyway, I guess the universe is more complicated than I was ever taught growing up.
 

fkegan

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Hi chacha1,

The simple answer to the original question of both Genesis and I Ching beginning with Heaven and Earth is the philosophical concept of Dualism or dividing All into two parts. Heaven is visible but not tangible, Earth is both. It is the fundamental dualism of common experience (Earth) and the Sacred (Heaven).

The problem of Dualism is that it too easily divides everything without any way to deal with the connections between things. In Chinese Philosophy, humanity is put in the middle between Heaven and Earth. Even in Genesis, that first dichotomy between Heaven and Earth is quickly followed by a second of light and dark which has to do with human perception of things. The trickier part is realizing Genesis is about Creation stories and all such narratives have a punch line...the last line tells the point and purpose of the story... In Genesis to explain why there are 7 days in a week and the 7th is a day of rest.

The I Ching is a separate system that starts with the dualism of Heaven and Earth but quickly moves on. Divination and God's Will is a more personal and a more complex question. As you note, there is more available to us than what was taught to us growing up. It is a simple if not simplistic dualism that there is what you were taught and other things.

You have already found the value of divination despite the detail that it is different from what you taught at home. God's will is a complex reality. Many folks simplify things thinking it only includes what they teach. However, like sunshine (the original image of God's will) it falls upon us all and develops all the various possibilities for all the Earth. Ultimately, it is a question very much like asking if it is wrong that it is daytime in other parts of the World when it is night time in your homeland.

Frank
 

lindsay

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Hello everyone and may good fortune reward you all,

I wonder, because I am struggling with this question myself, whether anyone thinks the Yi has a religious dimension? I am speaking of religion in its broadest sense. So my question involves what you think of as religion. You know, the center of your spiritual life, the focus of your concern about big issues as a human being. Maybe you are a Jew or a Muslim or a Christian or a Buddhist or a Taoist or an agnostic or an atheist. Or live according to any other guiding principle. Science, rationality, compassion? Does the Yi fit into the highest category of your committed belief? Or is it something on the side, something a little lower than the big stuff, a superstition, a folk belief, a spiritual tool - but not ultimately ... what ? ... serious?

Lindsay
 
M

meng

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Hi Lindsay,

I think the Yi skillfully avoids taking a religious stand, while providing images to interpret various religious meanings. For example, the frequently used "spiritual" word is often used in association with Yi's meaning and purpose, though I don't believe that word is mentioned anywhere in the Yi itself. One can hardly blame someone for making that association, but it is only ones association and not the Yi. 50 may be the most religionized (?) gua in this respect, but 48, 59, Wilhelm's 45 and others stir the religious pot too.

Part of my early conversion to Christianity came from the Daoist "Way" being applied to John 14:6's "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." To think that The Way actually becomes a man is not so out of keeping with Yijing. Wilhelm sure zeroed in on it in his 45:

Where men are to be gathered together, religious forces are needed. But there must also be a human leader to serve as the center of the group. In order to be able to bring others together, this leader must first of all be collected within himself. Only collective moral force can unite the world. Such great times of unification will leave great achievements behind them. This is the significance of the great offerings that are made. In the secular sphere likewise there is need of great deeds in the time of GATHERING TOGETHER.

But, if someone leans toward atheism, they'll find no contradiction in the Yi, that I know of. As far as I'm concerned, the Yijing is not a religious work, but can be interpreted in profoundly religious ways.
 

heylise

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My religion is "life as it is", or maybe call it universe. That is so incredibly rich and deep that I will never reach to the end of its depths or its heights. It includes all gods anyone can think of, all ethics, all rules, all love and evil. The works of an ant and the birth of a galaxy. Everything we can conceive has its roots in this huge phenomenon.
Yi encompasses all that. Talks about ants and stars, using the same words for both.

So to me it surely is religious. I share that religion with the ants and everything.
 

bradford

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The Yi doesn't hesitate to talk about the attitude that we bring to religion,
but it never outlines what to believe. It gives us insight into the nature of
sacrifice and what we do it for. In that it might be meta-religious, taking
a step back to look at what our observances mean and how we can make
them more meaningful. I really like its approach.
 

chacha1

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Fkegan, It's interesting that you mentioned dualism because I wrestle with the concepts of good and evil often. Where do believe the answers that the Yi gives come from? Do you think they're from a spirit source, or from the querents own energy in relation to the energy all around us, or through another way? I've heard of some people's theories-but they are just that.
 

chacha1

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Thanks lloyd,

The line in the footnotes of the text that said " Wickedness" is probably boldness in what is evil, and "weakness'' feebleness in the will of what is good" was most interesting, and fitting to what I am trying to grasp.
 
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lloyd

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Today I hit upon a few lines of poetry that reminded me of your posting and sounded relevant to the use of I Ching also.

“Whatever Being is, that formula,
it dies as we pursue it past the word.
We have not asked the meaning, but the use.”

(Judith Wright)
 

fkegan

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Fkegan, It's interesting that you mentioned dualism because I wrestle with the concepts of good and evil often. Where do believe the answers that the Yi gives come from? Do you think they're from a spirit source, or from the querents own energy in relation to the energy all around us, or through another way? I've heard of some people's theories-but they are just that.

Hi Chacha1,

Dualism takes many forms, most involve seeing things in terms of dichotomy of A and not-A which involves affirming something such as goodness and then making everything not included in that as not-good. The Yi isn't like that with Yang and Ying being different rather than one the negation of the other.

The question of where the Yi Oracle answers come from is a complex one. First, one would need to differentiate your two options, spirit source or one's own especially as there is a long tradition connecting personal source to Cosmic Source.

Personally, I believe casting the Yi Oracle yields a symbolic image of the relevant timing here-and-now which serves as a direct answer to whatever question you have asked. This leaves open the question of where did this all arise from as its cause or source on the grounds that such inferences are only theories.

I have an astrologer friend who teaches classes on answering personal questions from the horoscope for the time the question is asked. The class is prepared with the horoscope for 20 minutes into the session. By that time everyone has been instructed in how to select and phrase their individual personal question and told to ask it in its final form at that time. The rest of the class time is spent interpreting that one chart as the answer to each person's different question.

It would seem the Yi could also be used in a class such as that, the synchronicity would be the same, though few folks generally share their oracle results like that.

In general, you ask your question, cast the oracle and apply the Oracle as your answer. Those who find that a successful process continue to consult the Oracle and it continues to work for them. Any theories about what source originates that result is purely your own notion. I find that folks tend to see in their Oracles exactly the Source that they most appreciate sending them counsel.

Frank
 

chacha1

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Great points. This has been a concern of mine for so long because the Bible has several verses regarding divination ( Deut18:12,18:10, Jer 27:9 etc.,) and sometimes I wonder did people have a problem with it because they didn't understand it (along the lines of believing some people were possessed with demons when they may have just been suffering from mental illness) or because it is what God truly does not approve of? (because he feels we should not know the future). I like the Yi because it does not necessarily tell the future, but it gives an image of what the current environment is and allows free will. With something such as a Ouija board most people know that it can open the door to some very negative things, and for many years I had concern the same concern regarding the Yi. However, In the past few years I have the feeling that the answers come from more of an internal source that resonates with the energy that we are all surrounded by.
 

chacha1

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Wow that was strange!

I just happened to open another thread where the subject of divination and the Bible was discussed! There was an interesting entry about casting lots, and how that practice was used when deciding to replace Judas among the disciples.
 
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solun

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hello chacha1.

I think you will find that there were other instances of 'divination' used in ancient/biblical times. The prophet Daniel was an interpreter of dreams - a form of divination. Most prophets were involved in some sort of 'reading' or divination. But the art had degraded to manipulation and self motivated uses. Kings and leaders were relying too heavily upon certain sources and supplanting their connection to truth with the desire to control everything around them. So their inner corruption led them to be corrupted by outward means. And they were warned against this.
The Magi were diviners, the ones who knew how to find the Christ child. They were astrologers. There are many astrological references in the OT.
To seek wisdom and truth is actually encouraged.
A real gift of interpretation or divination is a sacred gift. Those who misuse or abuse gifts or pretend with it will accumulate rewards appropriate to the damage they cause. It's not something to be taken up lightly. It should be accompanied by disciplined education, refined experience and pure motivations.

But I am reminded of the scripture in the NT that says beware 'every wind of doctrine' that comes along.
'Test the spirits, whether they be of God' - consistent with the principles of truth and love, and so on. I think this is what the OT was saying about diviners.
 
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chacha1

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Thank you so much Solun, as this solidifies many instincts I had about life and seeking knowledge. I believe that in many instances in the past the truth has been manipulated to suit those in power. I thought the same thing when I read that the Magi (wise men) were guided by a star, (astrology/astronomy). I had an interesting/scary experience with a pendulum years ago when I "tested the spirits", and that is probably what made me think about what the source of the Yi's answers was. I found a thread on here where the subject of divination and the Bible came up, but now I can't locate it.
 

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