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Are hexagrams 41 and 58,2 negative?

lyrandra

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Hello,

I asked:
Why didn't he answer me? 14,3,4 > 41
Is he going to answer me next week? 58,2 > 17

Here are my questions:
1. Is hexagram 41 necessarily negative? How should I interpret it?
2. Is line 2 in hexagram 58 negative as well? I found various interpretations which left me confused.

58, line 2(Richard Wilhelm): "We often find ourselves associating with inferior people in whose company we are tempted by pleasures that are inappropriate for the superior man. To participate in such pleasures would certainly bring remorse, for a superior man can find no real satisfaction in low pleasures. When, recognizing this, a man does not permit his will to swerve, so that he does not find such ways agreeable, not even dubious companions will venture to proffer any base pleasures, because he would not enjoy them. Thus every cause for regret is removed."

58, line 2 (Robert G. Benson): "He is sought out by his leader to share himself, and he loyally agrees. After doing this, his doubts and regrets will pass, and he will benefits. Although he could refuse to share, he has ties of loyalty that bind him to his leader. His leader now asks for his commitment and cooperation, so he places his trust in his leader and agrees to share. Later, he finds that following his leader's request does bring to him, and his doubts and regrets fade. He may be asked to do something he wouldn't otherwise do, but he agrees anyway, hoping for the best."


Thanks,
Lyrandra
 

willowfox

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Your first answer suggests that he was busy and Hex 41 suggests that he was in no mood to reply, he was restraining himself from making a regrettable blunder.

Look at Hex 41 and read the commentary, it is not negative for him. To decrease communications by not replying due to anger perhaps.


Your 2nd answer suggests that he feels that it is wrong to continue to associate with you, therefore it seems that he will not contact you next week.

And as for Benson's translation it sounds like fourth-hand nonsense that he made up while under the influence of alcohol.
 

lyrandra

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Hello,

Thank you for your answer. Could he have not replied because of something else than anger? I told him my feelings for him. I don't see why he would be angry about it. But I'm wondering if maybe he doesn't know what to say or he doesn't know what he feels or he needs to think about it before replying. But my second answer suggests that he will not reply and I can see why with the situation we are in.

I asked:
Will he tell me what he thinks of me at some point? 55 > 55
Why doesn't he just tell me that he doesn't want to know anything about me? 33,2,4 > 57

Now, how do I interpret 33,3,4?

33, line 3: "While the superior men retreat and the inferior press after them, the inferior man represented here holds on so firmly and tightly to the superior men that the latter cannot shake him off. And because he is in quest of what is right and so strong in purpose, he reaches his goal. Thus the line confirms what is said in the Judgment: In what is small – here equivalent to in the inferior man – perseverance furthers."

Who's holding tight to who? Him or me?

33, line 4: "In retreating the superior man is intent on taking his departure willingly and in all friendliness. He easily adjusts his mind to retreat, because in retreating he does not have to do violence to his convictions. The only one who suffers is the inferior man from whom he retreats, who will degenerate when deprived of the guidance of the superior man."

In retreating he does not have to do violence to his convictions? What kind of convictions?
 
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willowfox

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Will he tell me what he thinks of me at some point? 55 > 55

Yes, he will indeed say what he thinks about you sooner or later.

Why doesn't he just tell me that he doesn't want to know anything about me? 33,2,4 > 57

Line 33.2 suggests that you are the one clinging to him while he is trying to back away as he only wishes to do the right thing.

Line 33.4 again suggests that he is trying to retreat away from you without causing any arguments simply by saying nothing. "Lest said quickest mended".

Hex 57 perhaps it is what is called as a "gentle" let down. But it gives him time slowly formulate a reply.
 

lyrandra

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Hello,

Thanks again. Your answers make more sense than what I had in mind as an interpretation. It's clear that "the superior man" is him and "the inferior man" is me and that it is somehow wrong to be associated with me for some reasons.

I'll let things the way they are for now and "retreat" in the meantime.

Thanks,
Lyrandra
 

ginnie

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Maybe the two of you really live in two different worlds and don't have much in common to base a long-term relationship on -- and he has realized this sooner than you have, lyrandra.

Answers would be clearer to you if you could ask them from your own point of view instead of asking them from the point of view of the other person.
 

ginnie

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Is hexagram 41 necessarily negative? How should I interpret it?
Lyrandra

41 means a decrease of involvement. It is not negative. Often it is very necessary to decrease involvement for one reason or another.

Regarding 58.2, yes, that one can be a real puzzler. I got this line once, and, tell you the truth, I was wondering about it for a long time. In other words, I don't know. If in doubt, do not act.

Some of the confusion about who is the Superior Man and who is the Inferior Man comes about because you are asking your questions the wrong way around. Better to ask what attitude you might take to him. That would give you a clearer direction. We are all responsible for our own state of mind, but often do not know it. Why ask about another person's mind when we don't even know our own minds?
 

lyrandra

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Hello Ginnie,

Thank you for your reading. You are write when you say that maybe I do not ask the right questions. It might give me more insight to ask a question from my point of view. I absolutely agree. I'm surprised he didn't answer me. I wasn't expected anything, but I was at least expecting an answer from him. I don't mind if it is negative, if he doesn't feel anything for me or if he needs to think about it. I just wanted a little answer, either "I'm sorry, I need to think about it" or "I'm flattered, but I don't feel anything for you and it needs to stop now."

That is why I asked all these questions from his point of view. I don't understand and I want to understand. Why?... Why can't he just answer me something, even if it is negative? I would know where to stand. But his silence speaks for itself... I am disapointed. I thought he would at least answer a little something. I just feel stupid now, like I made a fool of myself.

I'll try to ask what attitude to have towards him from now on.

Thank you,
Lyrandra
 

ginnie

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I don't understand and I want to understand. Why?... Why can't he just answer me something, even if it is negative?

I'll try to ask what attitude to have towards him from now on. Lyrandra

Of course you feel disappointed.

Bless him and let the situation go . . . Maybe you really need a man who is more chatty and able to verbalize what's in his heart and in his mind. Don't let your thoughts linger too much on this one, the disappointing, noncommunicative type. :)
 

lyrandra

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That's what I'll do. I think I need to ask myself if that's what I really want. I tried to have some insight from the IC and got the following:

What attitude should I have towards him from now on? 61.1.4.5 > 64
How should I act with him from now on? 4.2 > 23

Lyrandra
 

ginnie

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How you should act: Embrace the ignoramus, the little foolish one! You might have mixed feelings about whether or not it is worth cultivating the companionship of someone who is like this. It all depends on how much you are able to tolerate, Lyrandra -- If you enjoy exercising your patience, for example, this relationship could lead to your changing or shedding old notions about what is the best kind of relationship.

As for what attitude you should take:

Line 61.1 says to stay alone with yourself.
Line 61.4 says your companion wanders off, but this is nobody's fault. You will conduct yourself in the future at a higher level than most people you know. There will be no error.
Line 61.5 says that you will connect to others with great sincerity and self-confidence in the future . . .

. . . and that is because the I Ching will be assisting you every step of the way!

In giving you hex 61, the Yi is stressing always being honest, absolutely sincere. This is not always easy, because, as they say, love is blind. Sometimes it is hard to see the truth. The Yi says, for example, this particular man is inexperienced, somewhat like a child . . . Only you can decide how much immaturity you can put up with . . . On the other hand, relationships in which one person is more mature and the other person is less mature can be very long lasting . . . Opposites certainly do attract.
 

willowfox

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What attitude should I have towards him from now on? 61.1.4.5 > 64

Line 61.1 does not tell you to stay alone, what it says is not to be dependent upon him, otherwise it will only make upset.
Line 61.4 does not say that you will be on a higher level at all, what it says is that you do your own thing, and just carry on with your life.
Line 61.5 says that is for you to set an example to him by being sincere and truthful in your feelings and in this way even he maybe influenced to respond.

Hex 64 is about being cautious in your dealings with him, so don't over extend yourself.

How should I act with him from now on? 4.2 > 23

Line 4.2 suggests that you lighten up and not be so serious about his non actions, so above all be patient, good humored, and tolerant.
 

ginnie

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I can sometimes be wrong, but in this case I stand by my line interpretations given above.

About line 1 moving in H61, here is what the Legge translation says: "The first line, undivided, shows its subject resting (in himself). There will be good fortune. If he sought to any other, he would not find rest."

The Blofeld translation of #61.1 reads: "The presence of others would give rise to anxiety."

That seems pretty clear to me. I don't have any problem at all at saying to Lyrandra that 61.1 means she should stay alone for awhile and rest.

Line 61.4 has often been interpreted as our rising above those of our own kind. In my experience, this means we have done something accomplished or have reached a higher level of insight than most of the people we know.

Otherwise, I find myself in agreement with Willowfox's post just above. Willowfox is tremendously experienced and I love the way she goes right to heart of even the most complicated situations! It's not so easy, being someone who gives advice!
 
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willowfox

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About line 1 moving in H61, here is what the Legge translation says: "The first line, undivided, shows its subject resting (in himself). There will be good fortune. If he sought to any other, he would not find rest."

The Blofeld translation of #61.1 reads: "The presence of others would give rise to anxiety."

That seems pretty clear to me. I don't have any problem at all at saying to Lyrandra that 61.1 means she should stay alone for awhile and rest.

The thing is that Lyrandra is alone, she has no physical contact with the guy in question, so I take Wilhelm's idea that the more she can stand on her own two feet regarding him the better and the less likelihood that she will get hurt.
Yes he is causing a great deal of anxiety because she is too dependent upon him, look at her questions about him.
Therefore she will only find rest when she stops thinking about the guy, and when she kills that insatiable hunger that is inside her.
She is too reliant on him and needs to break that habit.
 

lucia

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Hi folks

well, I have to chuck in my 2ps 'cos I've never heard or experienced 61.1 as stay alone I see it is doing the internal work to deal with inner truth - being prepared, being independent in your thinking;

and 61.4 is about keeping your integrity and principles even when you lose your mate/friend/situation whatever. I'm very wary of words like "higher", it is a potentially dangerous idea to think you are higher or more accomplished than someone else to me this potentially iffy just thinking like that is a clear demonstration that one isn't no?

Brad often reminds us that no matter what the lines say they are in the context of the hex - in this case inner truth - 61.5 well, hmm like Ginnie said about 58.2 a real puzzler 'cos I've had it loads and the more I encounter it the more I sense the influence of the fanyao 41.5 a blessing in not getting what you want. And a couple of times in the sense of putting together all the pieces of a 'mystery' and getting the answer which is also not necessarily what you want to hear.

does that make sense?

I think it is brave to tell someone your feelings but the problem is that not everyone recognises that and honours it on the same level, so maybe this is a hard lesson for Lyandra that says you are on the right track with your principles now get stronger and know when someone is worthy of that treatment and when they are not and should just be silently abandoned (which in itself is a pretty strong response). The other problem is really knowing your feelings (61.1) - the inner truth to prepare for sincerity/integrity.


Lucia
 

lyrandra

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Hello everyone,

I think you are all right in a sense. I do have to separate from him, be more independant and learn from this experience. I regret what I did, it wasn't worth it. But I should try to learn from it instead. As Lucia mentioned, maybe it's lesson and I need to understand when it's worth it to open my heart that way to someone. And it's funny because I was thought about that today. I told myself I would never tell my feelings to anyone again unless I know the person is worthy of myself opening my heart. I feel so humiliated. He acted like nothing happened, like nothing has been said.

He's not worth it. I realize it now...

Thank you for your advices,
Lyrandra
 

lyrandra

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I have another question though: How do you determine a "Yes" or "No" question? How do you know it's "Yes" and how do you know it's "No"?
 

ginnie

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This is the way I ask yes/no questions, Lyrandra. I write what I want to ask, like this: "Should I spend more time on this website?" And then I ask the Yi what it thinks of what I just wrote. I always write down my questions. So my question would go like this:

"I want to spend a lot of time at Clarity, because I like it." I Ching, what can you tell me about what I just wrote?

The Yi has answered thusly: 64.6 > 40."Be like at a feast and enjoy yourself, but don't get so carried away that you get drunk." :rofl::rofl::rofl:

Yes, that's what the Yi just said to me, Lyrandra. Some people say that you shouldn't ask simple yes/no questions, but the Yi will understand what you're asking and will respond as it wants.
 
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lyrandra

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So... He sent me an e-mail today, but it wasn't related at all to my last e-mail about my feelings. I'm surprise. It's the first time HE sends me an e-mail. We never really talk and there were just a few e-mails as well. I don't understand. He doesn't answer my e-mail about my feelings, but he sends me an e-mail anyway for the first time!!! Last week, before I talk about my feeling, I told him I might be gone soon (in September) because I got an offer for another job. Today, he asked me if my contract here ended in September. I told him no, but I'm still waiting to hear back from the other job I applied for. I asked him why he wanted to know. He said he remember I talked about it last week and that he was just curious and that he hopes it's okay (to be curious I guess). Then, I had to leave. It's funny, because this morning I asked how he would act with me today, and I got 16.2.4 > 7.

Maybe it's nothing and I think too much. Maybe he just wants to know when I'm gone so he won't to see me anymore. I don't know... I just didn't expect this. I never expected to receive an e-mail from him EVER. This is really a surprise.
 

lyrandra

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I asked:
Why did he sent me an e-mail today? 23.3.5 > 53

Is it good or bad? 23 is most of the time bad, but I'm not sure when it's related to lines 3 and 5.

23.3
An individual finds himself in an evil environment to which he is committed by external ties. But he has an inner relationship with a superior man, and through this he attains the stability to free himself from the way of the inferior people around him. This brings him into opposition to them of course, but that is not wrong.

23.5
Here, in immediate proximity to the strong, light-giving principle at the top, the nature of the dark force undergoes a change. It no longer opposes the strong principle by means of intrigues but submits to its guidance. indeed, as the head of the other weak lines, it leads all of these to the strong line, just as a princess leads her maids-in-waiting like a shoal of fishes to her husband and thus gains his favor. Inasmuch as the lower element thus voluntarily places itself under the higher, it attains happiness and the higher also receives its due. Therefore all goes well.
 

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