He Tu - The Map of the Universe

[hmesker]

The best source for my quest of understanding He Tu is the drawing. Is that hard for you to believe?

No, but I don't see how that relates to my request for sources.

Couple days ago, I was motivated to write the secret of the numbers in the Hetu drawing. Now that motivation is gone.

Sorry to hear that. I thought a little bit of criticism would lead to improvement of what you write, after all, it is easy to shout something in the air and expect everyone to take it as hard fact without giving them the chance to check what you say. It is harder, but more convincing, if you can back up what you say with reliable sources. Is that hard for you to believe? I wonder why you refuse to mention sources. Or aren't their any?

After ten years looking at HeTu drawing, I understand things that no other books has dare to consider.

I have heard that so many times before. It's a lame excuse, you should still mention your background, your foundation, your starting point, in other words, your sources. Otherwise what you say is just plain fantasy.

I still remembered the first time that I saw HeTu. I saw that Yin represent the odd number and Yang represents the even numbers. I was so puzzle because the logic had contradicted most of the sources out there.

Here you go again. You just say something ridiculous without backing it up. Why do you think that yin represents odd numbers and yang represents even numbers? Tell about it, instead of just saying it.

Currently the books and old writing have only opened the small part of secrets of HeTu. There are still undiscovered secrets lies within the HeTu. It's more than just random number.

Sure. But if you want to tell about it and make it sound acceptable shouldn't just say something - you should also make it possible to check what you say. Otherwise it is just nonsense.

But I think I made my point. It is up to you to boldly go where no man has gone before - to stay in galaxy phrasing.

[votri]

hmesker,

It's a lame excuse ...
You just say something ridiculous ...
Otherwise it is just nonsense ...
to stay in galaxy phrasing.

Wow! That's some "Harsh" words. We are professional. Let's respect the forum and leave out the "harsh" words when making comments.

First, the data that I have posted are my thoughts when looking at the He Tu. It should not be considered as "FACTS". I have never said it is the "facts" and never will. I have a lot of respect with the members of this forum, therefore I didn't explain the details my thought. If I did that, then that is the same as treating the readers as kids. Once in a while, I run to others with the same thoughts, I am more than happy to exchange ideas & knowledge. For others like you that have a different opinions, I respect your stands & thoughts.

Maybe this is not the right time for HeTu discussion. Just treat my thoughts as only my thoughts. No more and no less.

VoTri

[hmesker]

Wow! That's some "Harsh" words. We are professional.

It is not professional to avoid the issues that I mention. You simply ignore what I say, and you only focus on how I say it, instead of what I am saying. Sometimes harsh words are necessary, like a kick in the butt.

Let's respect the forum and leave out the "harsh" words when making comments.

A forum deserves no respect, but its members do. So respect the members and answer the member's questions.

First, the data that I have posted are my thoughts when looking at the He Tu. It should not be considered as "FACTS". I have never said it is the "facts" and never will.

I know you didn't say that, but you did imply it by deliberately avoiding mentioning your sources. Now I understand that there aren't any. No problem, but just say that instead of beating around the bush.

I have a lot of respect with the members of this forum, therefore I didn't explain the details my thought. If I did that, then that is the same as treating the readers as kids.

I believe you are doing just that when you don't back up what you say. What you did in your very first message was similar to saying that the moon is made of cheese. If I started a thread with only that sentence, do you believe the readers would buy it? Of course not, yet you are doing the same.

For others like you that have a different opinions, I respect your stands & thoughts.

I don't know where you get the idea from that I have 'different opinions'. All I did was ask for backup of what you say.

Maybe this is not the right time for HeTu discussion. Just treat my thoughts as only my thoughts. No more and no less.

Ok, will do that. Nevertheless it's a pity that there are no sources.

[jesed]

I have a lot of respect with the members of this forum, therefore I didn't explain the details my thought.

If you think "to explain your ideas" implies "lack of respect"...well, then I can see how you think yin represents odd numbers and yang represents even numbers

BTW: The "5 elements" is not part of the original HeTu drawing; once again, you need to "add" something external to fit your idea.

Best

[votri]

Nevertheless it's a pity that there are no sources

The sources are the He Tu drawing and VoTri. It is a pity that you can't accept those sources. Everything I have posted I definitely can provide the solid evidents and proofs thru examples and explanation.

OK! let's take a step back and retrace our conversation. Your first question was "Ha Do". The drawing have many names and meaning. Chinese called it "He Tu". Vietnamse called it "Ha Do". English translation is "River Map". In Vietnamese, the term "Ha Do" means "heaven map". That's a direct translation. The source: either take my work or try to ask other Vietnamse in many Vietnamse forum on the net or look up the dictionary.
Three sources: pick one. That's all that I can recommend.

Second: I have posted that:
"Yin represent the odd number and Yang represents the even numbers."
Your replied by saying: "... Here you go again. You just say something ridiculous without backing it up."

Before I respond or explain my stands, I just want to get more clarification on your thought.
- Why do you think that is ridiculous ?
- Is it my thought is opposite to what you have learned and you can't accept any thing other than that ?
- Is it that the old phrase say that: "
Heaven takes 1 and gave birth to Water.
Earth takes 2 and gave birth to Fire.
Heaven takes 3 and gave birth to Wood.
Earth takes 4 and gave birth to Metal ..."
so Heaven means Yang and Earth means Yin therefore Yang is odd and Yin is even ?
- Is it that I just post my statement and haven't had a chance to explain the reason (because it is outside this topic), therefore it is ridiculous ?

If you want me to respect you, then show me your knowledge. Prove to me that
"Yin represent the odd number and Yang represents the even numbers." is wrong by facts not sources (only if that source contains the fact or proof). I will more than happy to explain my thoughts on any of my statements. The worst senario is that I learn something new, and that's a good thing to have.

To give you a head start, I draw this picture of us to discuss. Using the current sources on the books / net (notice, this is opposite of my thought), as "Yin represent the even number and Yang represents the odd numbers." or Yin (broken line) as even and Yang (solid line) as odd


Are you agree with this or not ? Let's have some fun.

VoTri

[robertluoshu]

Greetings Votri,

Please feel free to share your insights on the drawing of the He Tu.

The concept of rotation/spin is quite possible in connection with the He Tu. I consider the He Tu the same as the Luo Shu, but I confess I know very little about the He Tu and how its numbers rotate into the Luo Shu.

However, I do know that the Luo Shu is a two dimensional mapping of a torus, which is a three dimensional geometric shape similar to a doughnut.

Many people have compared the shape of the universe to a torus. And the torus shape has significant technological uses, see link:

http://rodin.freelancepartnership.co...d=13&Itemid=31

The Luo Shu has always been thought of as a model of Time and Space (Marcel Granet, Marie von Franz). It has been used as a ground plan for the design of ancient Chinese temples and cities as the early Chinese believed the Luo Shu was presented to humankind from Heaven.

Simply put, the Luo Shu represented the cosmology of the early Chinese ( see Cammann, Berglund). The odd numbers of the Luo Shu represent Heaven (male,yang) and the even numbers represent Earth (female,yin)(Brent Nielsen, A Companion To The Yi Jing Numerology and Coosmology 2003)



The fact that the cruciform shape represents the odd numbers, or Heaven, is an extremely significant fact as this cruciform "ya" shape is incorporated into the Chinese TLV Bronze mirror, jade bi disc, tombs of the royal family, and temple design.(see Schinz, The Magic Square 1996 and Lars Berglund Secret of the Luo Shu)

The Ya shape can also correspond with the quincunx ground plan design of early Byznatine churches and was commonly used in early Christian iconography.

As the Luo Shu corresponds to Time (the numbers of the calendar, gnomon) and Space (Pythagorean triples occur in every Luo Shu Magic Square), the "ya" shape is a math symbol. The early Chinese believed that the Math of the gnomon and the Luo Shu could help to establish order and bring prosperity to humankind.

The proposed idea was that He Tu or Ha Do means "Map of the Universe" does not seem unreasonable considering how significant the Luo Shu was to the early Chinese. It is possible that the higher order magic squares in the Luo Shu format were used in prognostication, or divining the future.

Math and the numerology of the Luo Shu were the basis of Chinese cosmology and the Chinese believed that Heaven presented this information to Humankind.

It can not be emphasized how important it is to be able to provide sources to confirm statements of fact in order to have a provocative and deep discussion. Our objective is to evolve through learning and experience; therefore, having information that can be confirmed or debated intelligently helps to minimize conjecture and seperate opinion from accepted observations.

robertluoshu, www.luo-shu.com

[frank_r]

However, I do know that the Luo Shu is a two dimensional mapping of a torus, which is a three dimensional geometric shape similar to a doughnut.

robertluoshu, www.luo-shu.com

Hello Robert,

Never looked at the Lo Shu this way, very interesting.
Dan Winter also looks at the human heart this way. http://caltek.net/dan/connectivity/phibiz/sbheart1.html
I'm still thinking about some things you said about the 3-6-9 and also the site you gave about this rodin coil torus. Still studying this.


And Votri,

Yes some very interesting material you have here.
For me it is still confusing.
So I would like to ask you what can you tell about the numbers.
Why do you put the numbers in like this? What is the idea and reason behind this?
Not the numbers of the He Tu itself but the numbers on the sides.
What can you do in a practical way with the He Tu?

All the best Frank

[votri]

robertluoshu,

I went to your site. You do have some interesting info at that site. Impressive. Lo-Shu plays a very important role in our daily life. As for the info on your site, I agree to most of the info. For some of the info, I do have some doubts about them. Althought those info are not wrong, I personally think that they are more situable with HeTu instead of LoShu.

Maybe after Christmas when the holiday shoppings are done and I have more free time, I want to spend sometime re-visiting your site. Hopefully, we can spend sometime discussing about some of the info thru private email discussion.

Happy Holidays,
VoTri

[votri]

Frank_r,

Ha Do numbers contain many meaning and can be used for multiple purposes. The fundamental sequence of Ha Do is:

5 + 1 = 6
5 + 2 = 7
5 + 3 = 8
5 + 4 = 9
5 + 5 = 10

The sum of the odd number => 1 + 3 + 5 + 7 = 25
The sum of the even number=> 2 + 4 + 6 + 8 + 10 = 30

I will discuss the important of these number in later chapter. For now, let's see how ancient astrologer had used Ha Do in pre-heaven pakua and applied to the 4 season of the years.



VoTri

[robertluoshu]

Hello Frank R.,

Nice to hear from you.

This is an interesting site you recommend. I am amazed at the theoretical, anatomical, and practical uses of the torus geometry.

The more one researches the Luo Shu the more fascinating it becomes, as I am sure is true of the He Tu, Yi Jing, and the rest.

The mythology of the early Chinese that believed the Luo Shu was presented to Humankind from Heaven also supports the theory that the torus shape is a gift from Heaven that can help humankind to evolve and prosper.

Modern technological application of this geometric design is proving this theory to be correct. The torus shape has proved to be the design of choice for electrical conductivity as this shape offers the least resistance and highest effeciency.

The fact that the human heart may also incorporate this geometric design does not surprise as we are electro-chemical beings that depend on the effecient transfer of energy (in the form of charged chemical compounds) through our cell walls. This constant vortex of life force movement may best operate in a toric enviroment.

Now for some coffee and doughnuts.

robertluoshu at www.luo-shu.com