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wu2: without / not / no / avoid /
jiao1: to deliver / to turn over // to make friends / to have sexual intercourse / to mix / to join // to cross / to intersect (lines) /
hai4: to do harm to / to cause trouble to / harm / evil / calamity /
fei3: bandit / evildoer /
jiu4: blame / to blame / mistake

jian1: difficult / hard / hardship /
ze2: (expresses contrast with a previous sentence or clause) / standard / norm / rule / to imitate / to follow / then / principle /
wu2: without / not / no / avoid /
jiu4: wrong / blame / to blame / mistake /



That is Zhouyi(14).




无交害匪咎
DO NOT MARRY HARMFUL BANDITS [WHICH SHOULD BE] WRONG.
Don't mix with toxic people.
Don't commit the mistake of joining with somebody that's hurting you, that's not love.

艱則无咎
HARD BUT NO WRONG.
Difficult although correct.
Is this TUAN?

I see the difference as the second one has negative connotations. (??)
I am probably screwing this all up. Please help me understand.
 
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charly

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That is Zhouyi(14).
Is this TUAN?
I see the difference as the second one has negative connotations. (??)
I am probably screwing this all up. Please help me understand.
Hi, Courtney:

The 1st. quote you post is a list of characters from 14.1 with its most usual meanings.

The second quote is my literal translation with illustrative glosses.

You can get your own version choosing diferent meanings, but the result must say something to you.

The difference which I pointed is between the first clause of the TUAN, a commentary for the so called JUDGEMENT, about the marriage of heaven and Earth, and the following sexist equivalences:

inner / outer
sunny / cloudy
strong / submissive
nobles / commoners
long (endowed) / needy

Here: http://www.yellowbridge.com/onlinelit/yijing11.php
... can see the chinese text of h.11 syncronized with Legge's translation.

Under the title The Judgement it has:

1) the first chinese line which is the JUDGEMENT.
2) the clauses that begin with 彖曰 TUAN YUE (literally the hog says), a commentary on the Judgement.
3) the clauses that begin with 象曰XIANG YUE (literally the elephant says or the image says), the called GREAT IMAGE, which work with trigram metaphors.

For each line come:

1) the received text of the line (in bold)
2) the so called LITTLE IMAGES or LINE IMAGE, commentaries that also begin with 象曰.

There are more commentaries, but that's another story.


All the best,


Charly

P.D.:
Beware: not all the people accept my translations but I try to be literal and understandable.
Also a little fancy and, funny but honest.
Ch.
 
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Charly, this is where I got those words. You are reading my mind. :D
And I appreciate your fancy fun honesty. Is your translation purchasable or available to download?

How I tend to learn is backwards. I cannot look at the details as much as need the bigger picture first. The backbone before the nerves etc. It seems lately I am trying to find a solid ground to build on. It is working, brick by brick. Soon I will have a huge house of Yijing and everyone will be invited in to play
 

charly

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Charly, this is where I got those words. You are reading my mind. :D
And I appreciate your fancy fun honesty. Is your translation purchasable or available to download?

How I tend to learn is backwards. I cannot look at the details as much as need the bigger picture first. The backbone before the nerves etc. It seems lately I am trying to find a solid ground to build on. It is working, brick by brick. Soon I will have a huge house of Yijing and everyone will be invited in to play

Hi, Courtney:

I have not a complete translation, I use to translate parts when I need it for a reading or for posting some ideas in the forum.

I believe that I need a blog, but never got time enough, much work, little money and family problems, nobody's perfect.

The most of my translation are posted in Clarity forum. If I have another stuff I will notice you.

A little advice: if you're building your Yijing house, make a chamber for Solomon's Song of Songs.

All the best,


Charly
 
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A little advice: if you're building your Yijing house, make a chamber for Solomon's Song of Songs.

...this fits right in with your nitch. Do you happen to be a carpenter? You could help me build this chamber quite well I believe. Or maybe you could be a maker of a carriage to put into my Yi garage.
 

charly

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Courtney:

Like it too much. I happens that I have no exclusivity on this nitch.

I love the translation of Fray Luis de Leon whose precepts I follow when trying to translate the YI. And I wonder how was the SONGS´ SONG admited in the BIBLE and how was the YI admited to the FIVE CONFUCIAN CLASSICS.

And I believe that the SONG and the YI share some imagery and some poetic resources.

Have you read the BLOCHS´translation of the SONG?

Something says me that maybe yes.


All the best,


Charly
 
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Hi Charly, I'm afraid I've only heard reference to the Song of Songs but do not know much about it. Kate Bush has a song about Solomon's Song, but I don't care much for her voice in the song. With this morning's coffee I looked up the Bloch translation and one other to compare. So, yes, I have read it :D. It's romantic to say the least. Which makes sense why Kate Bush did something with it in song. She loves these types of subjects. So does Tori Amos, her musical twin. Are there other 'romantic' topics in the Old Testament? It seems out of place.

When I looked up Song of Song's on Wikipedia, it references to the Tanakh, the Vulgate, and the Septuagint. I was really interested in the origin of the Bible a few years ago. I think it was around the time I really started getting into the Yijing. I tried following the texts back further and further. I hit a deadend road with too many road blocks and then stop pursuing but I still find it interesting. Now I find joy in sticking to Yijing Studies and honestly, it is sticking to me. I find it so interesting it could easily consume all of my time. Take care Charly!
 

charly

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Hi, Courtney:

Of course, the SONG seems out of place among other books of the Old Testament, and the YI seems out of place among the other fourth confucian classics. But both survive in those places!

I have some SONG / YI associations, like this:

kun4: tree in a square

And here you can get a comparative sudy between the SONG and the SHI JING, the Chinese Book of Poetry, which sometimes is good for untersand the YI.

THE SONG OF SONGS (ŠIR HAŠŠIRIM) AND THE BOOK OF SONGS (SHIJING): AN ATTEMPT IN COMPARATIVE ANALYSIS

For Professor Wu-chi Liu at his 90th birthday on July 22, 1997

Marián Gálik
Institute of Oriental and African Studies, Slovak Academy of Sciences, Klemensova 19, 813 64 Bratislava, Slovakia

The aim of this study is to analyse the lyric(al)ness of the two great specimens of the ancient and Chinese poetry Song of Songs and The Book of Songs. The different specificity of the lyricism is underscored in the poematis personae of two poetic works: more metaphoric language of the first and more synecdochic of the second, with attention to aesthetic sides of the depicted reality in first, and more restrained ethical values highlighted in the second. The first book is extrovertly and the second introvertly oriented. For both is typical the use of similes, although of different character.

pp. 45-75

Download full text in PDF format
http://www.aepress.sk/aas/full/aas197d.pdf

Source: http://www.aepress.sk/aas/aas197.htm

Take care,


Charly
 
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"The emotional state of the girl is a major theme.
She dreams of her lover, she longs to meet him, in secret, and she looks forward
to her wedding day, primarily in anticipation or even reminiscence of sensual
pleasure". - from the book you linked.

I sometimes imagine the essence of Yin and what it symbolizes as this. Yin waiting for Yang.
 

pocossin

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Are there other 'romantic' topics in the Old Testament? It seems out of place.

The Book of Ruth, and in praise of women, the 31st chapter of Proverbs: "The words of king Lemuel. The vision wherewith his mother instructed him."
 

meng

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I've only heard reference to the Song of Songs but do not know much about it.....Are there other 'romantic' topics in the Old Testament? It seems out of place.

Not if interpreted symbolically: the Creator's lust for his creation. More than a hint of hexagram 11, I'd say.

Also, if a less pure-of-heart story would be considered as romantic, particularly for one where the hero was referred to as "a man after God's own heart," then 2 Samuel 11 would qualify as a paperback romance novel.
 
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Not if interpreted symbolically: the Creator's lust for his creation. More than a hint of hexagram 11, I'd say.

Also, if a less pure-of-heart story would be considered as romantic, particularly for one where the hero was referred to as "a man after God's own heart," then 2 Samuel 11 would qualify as a paperback romance novel.

Samuel meets Wuthering Heights. I see animal shows on the Discovery channel like this sometimes. Also, ducks, when they fly by or are swimming around in a pond together. I think of it as a wild romance novel. :D
 
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The Book of Ruth, and in praise of women, the 31st chapter of Proverbs: "The words of king Lemuel. The vision wherewith his mother instructed him."

I looked up his mother's instructions. It is her advising him on how to find a woman to marry and the attributes she should possess. I thought maybe it was going to be about "the big talk" of the Birds and the Bees.
 

meng

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Samuel meets Wuthering Heights. I see animal shows on the Discovery channel like this sometimes. Also, ducks, when they fly by or are swimming around in a pond together. I think of it as a wild romance novel. :D

Yup, divinity and wild life can't really be separated; both are fundamentally sexy.
 

charly

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... if a less pure-of-heart story would be considered as romantic, particularly for one where the hero was referred to as "a man after God's own heart," then ... 2 Samuel 11 ... would qualify as a paperback romance novel.
Hi, Bruce:

You know that 2 Samuel 11 has no point of comparison with Solomn's Song of Songs, which is true LOVE POETRY.

The only point of contact between the dark story of David and Bathsheba is, I believe, that as a consequence of it Solomon was born. David didn't behave as a good king neither as a lover. The story is one of ABUSE, LUSTand CRIME, involving a king, a loyal and unfortunate soldier and a helpless woman.

The woman needs to be purified although she was taken by force. Sexual intercourse is seen not as expression of love but something associated with filth, grime.

Where KJV said «she was purified from her uncleannes» Reyna-Valera said «Purificose luego ella de su inmundicia» (1). Say, the victim is the one who needs to be purified.

Maybe realistic, nothing romantic.

All the best and welcome under your old name.


Charly

________________________
(1) Even now in my country is said «hacer la porquería» = to do the bad thing, to behave like swines for «to have sexual intercourse».
Ch.
 

charly

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Found at Wikipedia:
Controversy over blame

Some commentaries shift the blame of the affair away from David. In its masking David's faults, the biblical Book of Chronicles does not mention the affair with Bathsheba in its narrative, but only gives the name of Bathsheba's children.

Modern commentaries have argued that considering that Bathsheba's house was hardly more than twenty feet away from David's palace and that people in ancient times were exceptionally modest about showing their bodies, culture experts have pointed out that Bathsheba seems to have displayed herself deliberately; that is, instead of being an innocent victim, she seduced David in order to rid herself of Uriah, a lowly paid foreigner, and move in with the king.[3] Nevertheless, the events are clearly faulted to David.

The faulting of David is not only made clear in the text from the very beginning. "It was springtime, the time when kings go forth to war... but David remained in Jerusalem" (2 Samuel 11:1). If David had been acting as a good king and been at war, the incident would not have taken place.[4] After the incident, of course, there is Nathan's rebuke in 2 Samuel 12 and the curse and events that follow. The Bathsheba incident, then, begins a shift in the book's perspective. David "is largely at the mercy of events rather than directing them."[5] He is no longer able to control his family and ends up being overthrown by Absalom. In 2 Samuel 13 there is another way the text blames David. In the story of David's son Amnon's rape of his sister Tamar. The placement of the rape so soon after the incident of Bathsheba seems to draw a parallel between sexual misconduct of father and son.[6]

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathsheba
Ch.
 

meng

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Hi Charly,

I agree with your assessment. I mentioned it a bit tongue-in-cheek since AQ hadn't qualified her meaning for the word "romantic". I also should have used the word "zeal" (the Creator's zeal for his creation) rather than "lust" in my comment on Song of Songs, otherwise called Song of Solomon, which I've always viewed entirely as metaphor, though it's entirely likely to have played out literally as well. But for a King with 700 wives and 300 concubines, one can't help to see a significant degree of lust involved as well, with this young sun tanned farm girl, with whom he was so smitten.
 

charly

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...But for a King with 700 wives and 300 concubines, one can't help to see a significant degree of lust involved as well, with this young sun tanned farm girl, with whom he was so smitten.
Hi, Bruce:

Solomon only appears in the title. I always believed that the LOVER was not a KING, maybe only a young with the same name, or maybe a pseudonym. The YOUNG SOLOMON, aka SOL.

From the bed of SOL, there were visible beams of cedar and roof of cypress. In the Changes, the lovers were not royal, the roof was thatched and the beams were of willow (1). See the uneaven marriages of the Changes, love beyiond social conventions. No wrong.

In the Song of Songs florished the bed, in the Changes florished and sprouted the noisy willow beams. Say, the wood is living wood, like the Ace of Wands in the Rider deck.


ace_of_wands_sm.jpg

Source: http://planetwaves.net/pagetwo/reading-tarot/discovering-the-suits-the-wands-in-tarot/

I suppose the lovers are over the bed and below the roof, looking upwards (2). Maybe after the moment of passion, they are seeing the beams and the roof in the intimacy of the bedroom.

Or else, they are in the wilderness, in the MIDST OF THE SACRED FOREST under a canopy of tree branches and the sky.

Don't you believe so?

Your friend,


Charly
______________________________
(1) WILLOW means that the support was PASSION, see Lin Yutang in «With Love and Irony».
(2) Maybe the famous MIDDLE WAY.

P.D.:
700 wives and 300 concubines! Maybe Solomon was not so sage after all.
Ch.
 
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meng

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Charly,

Interesting thoughts. I especially like your comparative allegory of the Ace of Wands.
 
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《乾》剛《坤》柔。
Strength in Qian, weakness in Kun we find. [Legge]
THE CREATIVE is strong. THE RECEPTIVE is yielding [Wilhelm/Baynes].
Quian (1) is firm. Kun (2) can be displaced[Rutt].
SUN IS FIRM. EARTH IS FLEXIBLE [Charly].
Phallus is firm. Womb is flexible.


Is the right part of the character underlined the symbol for female?​
 

tuckchang

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For your reference

According to Shuowen, 坤kun is earth, 土 (the soil) at 申 (the ninth of the twelve Earthly Branches, which is located at the southeast and also taken for 3:00 PM ~5:00PM ………). Indeed it is extended to describe a subject relating to the feminine.

However you must understand that 乾Qian and 坤Kun are the terms of Zhou Yi. They are the code word, like the names of the other 6 trigrams; and their images and meanings are specified in Shua Gua if the I Ching is concerned.

From the sequence of 64 hexagrams, Kun can refer to the female, as the feminine Kun steps onto the stage of Zhou Yi after the masculine Qian, and then Zhun (hexagram 3) is giving birth to or being given birth but in difficulty (because Kun went to a wrong direction and Zhun lacks masculinity). However from perspective in viewing the texts and in my opinion, the significance of the hexagram Qian and Kun are not limited to the male and the female.

Regards
Tuck
www.iching123.com
 
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Hi Tuck and thanks for this. Qian and Kun are at the base of everything. Having the 'traits' of male and female are but one dualistic approach to splitting things. Maybe as humans they are easy categories to understand. Male and Female, and Light and Dark, are easier concepts to grasp than some of the other concepts associated. The more I learn about these two very different phenomenas that interact in an accord with one another, the more I seem to broaden the categories for each one. And it seems that if I learn something to deepen one side of the coin, it inevitably deepens the other side by simply flipping the coin over and imagining the opposite.

I just got a book that shows 500 Chinese characters. It shows their origins and often refers back to the Oracle Bones. I was leafing through the pages and found a character that represents something like a nursing mother. I don't have the book with me right now, so I am not sure the exact words associated. The character is a squiggled stick person/woman (sorry, these are my terms) kneeling down and it shows her breasts as two squares with dots in them. This was the seed for my original question about 坤. To be very honest, I wasn't sure exactly where I was going with it. I was just curiously searching and trying to peice things together. I guess I am wondering now if this character(or 申) is related to the one in the book. Did one originate from the other/grow off of it? Also, are there any sort of general rules when looking at a Chinese character (that depicts something 'female')to look for? This might be foolish to assume. Things seem more complicated than this, but I was thinking maybe female associated characters mostly had a square with a line through it. I might very well be on the wrong track of exploration. :D

Also, you say 申 is associated with 3 to 5PM. Is this in reference to the Bladder Meridian?

Take care,
AQ
 
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charly

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Found in Sear's Chineseetymology:
the ninth of the Twelve Terrestrial Branches / to appeal / to plead / to state / to set forth / to explain / to explicate / to extend / to expand / to inculcate (especially repeatedly /

Seal:
s11018.gif
Bronze:
b21264.gif
Bone:
j31141.gif


Source: http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?submitButton1=Etymology&characterInput=申

Of course, many other characters in the source.

Maybe LiSe might clarify:

http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/hex_1-16/01-02.htm

Yours,

Charly
 
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Thanks Charly, this is illuminating. Especially LiSe's page and the thunder. I was driving to work this morning pondering earth's energy and got to thinking about earthquakes. Not really thunder, but was thinking the nature of earthquakes seems so yang. Not sure about it yet. Thunder is cataloged in my brain the same way how it comes from inside the earth and moves things. On my drive it just seemed so yang. Maybe earthquakes are creating space and gaps and thunder is germinating. Not that it happens at the same time. <thinking aloud :)

Adding: I was also thinking that maybe the earthquake is a sign of change. Like earth is leaning more towards old yin. Take care, AQ
 
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tuckchang

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Also, you say 申 is associated with 3 to 5PM. Is this in reference to the Bladder Meridian?

Twelve Earthly Branches were used in ancient China to represent each two hours in a day. The first code 子zi is from 11:00 PM to 01:00 AM, so 申 (the ninth code) is from 03:00 PM to 05:00 PM.

Some more information regarding Chinese character is attached as follows for your reference. The oracle bone script is mainly attributed to 象形(pictograms), 指事(simple indicatives), 會意(compound indicatives), 形聲(phono-semantic compounds).

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Written_Chinese/Liù_Shū
http://www.learnnc.org/lp/editions/mandarin1/4535?style=print

Regards
Tuck
 
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Tuck those links are well organized and informative. They are very helpful. I had always thought learning Chinese was out of my reach but perhaps not. At least written Chinese might be attainable for me. The Phono-sematic characters seem a bit overwhelming at this time, but I could start with the pictograms. This does help in my curiosity about characters sharing the same strokes based on meaning. Thank you!
 

heylise

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It seems the right part was originally a picture of lightning. Meaning: spirit, electricity. The spirits of the ancestors also live in the earth, so the earth is filled with mysterious spirits which have power over good and bad fortune. And don't forget this huge power of fertility. How is it possible that a tiny seed grows into a huge tree? The earth has mighty powers.

Another interpretation is a picture of two hands, expanding something, which gives as meaning "to expand". Earth and expand: the wide space of the earth where all living creatures dwell.
 

heylise

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Some years ago Harmen enrolled on a course by mail of Chinese. Now he orders Chinese books in China by phone...
 

meng

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I think neither is 100% this or that, but one is rather predisposed toward one or the other, and that predisposition is what brings out the glory of its opposite, the way night brings out the glory and visibility of the stars and planets. Even there, opposites within another paradigm can at times stand equally side by side, the way Venus and Jupiter appeared to have intercourse in the western sky last night.
 

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