...life can be translucent

Menu

40. Hsieh / Deliverance

getojack

visitor
Joined
Jun 13, 1971
Messages
589
Reaction score
10
40.3

六三 負且乘。致寇至。貞吝。
liu4 san1 fu4 qie3 cheng2 zhi4 kou4 zhi4 zhen1 lin4
 

fkegan

(deceased)
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
2,052
Reaction score
41
Hex 40 line 3...

This is one of my favorite Yi images. The peddler with a carriage who still can't let go of his backpack or accept the Tao of his new circumstances thus telegraphing he is out of place and thus vulnerable to those sharper than him.

Gia-Fu translates this line by
OVERLOADED ON THE BACK YET RIDING IN A CARRIAGE. YOU'RE INVITING ROBBERS. ZEST. REGRET. Ability unequal to the position is shameful. You invite disaster to yourself, who is to be blamed?

This is also the line place of personal passion (in the hexagram of sexual climax) expressing and exhausting itself changing hex 40 to hex 32-- the fundamental structure of marriage as regulation of personal intimate relations into family commitment.

Or at another level, the corresponding Sabian Symbol by my theory...

Two little love-birds are sitting on a fence singing to each other and advertising their happiness to the world.

Frank
 

charly

visitor
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
2,315
Reaction score
243
六三 負且乘。致寇至。貞吝。
liu4 san1 fu4 qie3 cheng2 zhi4 kou4 zhi4 zhen1 lin4

負fu4: full , satisfied?
且qie3: yet, even more
乘cheng2: riding
致zhi4: sent
寇kou4: robbers, bandits
至zhi4: arrive
貞zhen1: omen, divination / perseverance
吝lin4: stingy

Full and yet riding.
Sent robbers arrive.
Stingy omen.

I wonder what cheng2 (to ride) means. To go in a carriage, to ride a horse or another sort of riding? It could be something excessive. Something that we cann't do being full. One thing or the other but not both at the same time, or we will cause our own disgrace. We will be sending the bandits that will robbe ourselves.

kou4 (robber, bandit) is also curious:
It has four components
  • A roof or a cover, maybe a house.
  • First, principal, supreme («yuan» as in «yuan heng li zhen»)a man with a big head (ancestor?) or the sign for «above» over a man, or the sign for «two» over a man; the man reduced to a pair of legs, one crippled.
  • A hand holding something like a tool or a pole(1).
  • The little pole with a branch is the character for «divination».

Maybe the crippled little man has the power of divination in his hand? Maybe a shaman?
Then the roof could be a hat, or better a cave.

What sort of cave is facing the crippled man? What sort of pole has the shaman in his hand?

Yours,

Charly
_________________

(1) sometimes read as a man is beaten > robbery / robbers, but why then the cover?
 

charly

visitor
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
2,315
Reaction score
243
... This is also the line place of personal passion (in the hexagram of sexual climax)...
Frank:

Are you saying that all H.40 belongs to sexual climax? Then «releasing» is allowing oneself to get the climax?

In this line the lover is lost because of excesive passion?

That makes me think some things:
  • Maybe line 1 is only setting matters : «no blame», nothing wrong nor right, nothing about moral principles, only matter of facts.
  • Line 2 could be the main promess: if your are shrewd you can get the jackpot.
  • Line 3 could be a warning: don't be excessive or you'l be lost and you will not arrive to the 6th. line, the summit.

What do you think about?

Yours,

Charly
 

rosada

visitor
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
9,890
Reaction score
3,171
"If a man carries a burden on his back and none the less rides in a carriage," he should really be ashamed of himself.
When I myself thus attract robbers, on whom shall I lay the blame?

This line is at the place where the lower primary trigram K'an and the upper nuclear trigram K'an come in contact. K'an means carriage and robbers. The structure of the hexagram is such that this six, a yin line and weak by nature, seeks to occupy the top place in the lower trigram, Its strength being insufficient for this, it carries a heavy burden. In this untenable position it necessarily attracts robbers. Persisting in the state naturally leads to humiliation.
-Wilhelm
 

rosada

visitor
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
9,890
Reaction score
3,171
Thinking about the advice of the IMAGE:

The superior man pardons mistakes and forgives misdeeds.

As "forgiveness" implies releasing old grudges and moving on, perhaps line 3, the trickiest line in a hexagram, is describing this final challenge, letting go of the grudge. So perhaps line three is describing a situation where the issue has supposedly been resolved yet one of the parties involved can't let it go and thus attracts problems all over again. I can imagine a person feeling wronged, taking the matter to court and being awarded with a carriage and yet instead of being able to feel restored and move on, he continues to carry his burden of feeling victimized and this attracts robbers all over again.
So I'm seeing 40.3 as saying "Forgiveness means not hanging on to the past. Get over it or you'll repeat it!"
 
Last edited:

fkegan

(deceased)
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
2,052
Reaction score
41
Hex 40 as 10th hexagram of the second half...

Frank:

Are you saying that all H.40 belongs to sexual climax? Then «releasing» is allowing oneself to get the climax?

In this line the lover is lost because of excesive passion?

That makes me think some things:
  • Maybe line 1 is only setting matters : «no blame», nothing wrong nor right, nothing about moral principles, only matter of facts.
  • Line 2 could be the main promess: if your are shrewd you can get the jackpot.
  • Line 3 could be a warning: don't be excessive or you'l be lost and you will not arrive to the 6th. line, the summit.

What do you think about?

Yours,

Charly

Hi Charly,
Hexagram 40 all and totally refers to the 10th hexagram of the set that begins with hex 31--the sexual attraction between male and female as regulated in proper courtship. It is not just sexual climax, but sexual climax as the ultimate quiescent state which completes the set of male/female interaction as a social institution of marriage and the family. The first set (hex 1-10) is the Water Cycle with hex 10 being the final stage of one cycle (streams of runoff collected in a marsh or lake under the sunshine) and the beginning of the next round of evaporation.

Hex 40 recognizes the importance of regular sexual relations (with climax) between spouses that both completes the courtship and powers the continuing development of the family as the foundation of all civilized society. Thus my Flux Tome (I Ching in American) name for this hexagram is Release (Re-lease) as the sexual release also recommits the underlying spousal bonding.

Hex 40.1 would be the roots or transition from the prior for this timing of Release. Simply the objective reality of satisfaction as fact as you put it. By forming a focus at this stage (moving Yin line filling in) Release becomes hex 54 Chasing Rainbows.

Hex 40.2 a moving Yang line expresses and exhausts its structure or position becoming hex. 16 Singing or in Wilhelm Enthusiasm. The successful achievement of sexual technique.

Hex 40.3 is the developing of focus upon personal passion through sexual climax which turns hex 40 into hex 32 marriage with its regular sexual activity that maintains the dynamism and produces children. The line judgment in the Wilhelm would then be a caution that married sex (the carriage of social approval) requires a change in self-development from the attitudes of the young man out on the hunt, taking whatever he can get and moving on. A husband who continues to think only of the pleasures of sex while being in the institution of marriage is truly blameworthy.

Frank
 

rosada

visitor
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
9,890
Reaction score
3,171
Nine in the fourth place means:
Deliver yourself from your big toe.
Then the companion comes,
And him you can trust.
 

charly

visitor
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
2,315
Reaction score
243
Hi Charly,
Hexagram 40 ... It is not just sexual climax, but sexual climax as the ultimate quiescent state which completes the set of male/female interaction as a social institution of marriage and the family... Hex 40 recognizes the importance of regular sexual relations (with climax) between spouses that both completes the courtship and powers the continuing development of the family as the foundation of all civilized society...

... The line judgment in the Wilhelm would then be a caution that married sex (the carriage of social approval) requires a change in self-development from the attitudes of the young man out on the hunt, taking whatever he can get and moving on. A husband who continues to think only of the pleasures of sex while being in the institution of marriage is truly blameworthy...
Frank:

Thanks for the explanation. I have understood quite diferent but, of course, based only on the text.

Surely Wilhelm would agree with you, I believe.

But I continue having the feeling that the YI was less philosophical with more practical although hidden meanings.

Yours,

Charly
 

Tohpol

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Jan 25, 2007
Messages
3,566
Reaction score
134
Hi Charly,
Hexagram 40 all and totally refers to the 10th hexagram of the set that begins with hex 31--the sexual attraction between male and female as regulated in proper courtship.

You're saying that 40 is exclusively about sexual energy? Couldn't you say that for all the hex's depending on context?

Topal
 

fkegan

(deceased)
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
2,052
Reaction score
41
You're saying that 40 is exclusively about sexual energy? Couldn't you say that for all the hex's depending on context?

Topal

Hi Topal and Charly,

What is the Yi? It is a universe of 64 line patterns in a 6 place gua or matrix given a number order by the King Wen Sequence. All the rest is commentary as they say.

Confucius apparently innovated an entire system of commentary with notions of Yang and Yin lines as separate but equal (and of course Yin subservient) social relations that was used as a major text for civil service exams in Imperial China. The use of the Yi oracle divination for practical bureaucratic advice developed as well.

My insight is that the King Wen Sequence is not random or mysterious, rather highly sophisticated and exact based upon the Chinese number system which recognizes the number theory of each number and counts in terms of these numbers and sets of 10. Pythagoras worked out similar number theory with great philosophical power vested in the set of 10.

Applying this analysis to the Yi hexagrams yields hex 31 as the monad or overall explanation of the entire set from hex 31 to 40. Hex 31 begins the second half of the Yi and is traditionally the hexagram of courtship. This establishes male-female relations in the context of marriage and family as the theme of these 10 hexagrams. Hex 40 is the final hex of this set and thus represents the final quiescent result in contrast to hex 39 which is the maximum energy intensification of the set.

All other interpretations of the Yi remain valid. It is just that the structural analysis gives the inner meaning of the Yi system and adds depth and color to the specific words used to interpret the text.

Topal-- No, all the hexagrams are not about sex, though to the pure all things are pure or upon the context of sex everything looks like sex.
This set of hexagrams are about the social structures that take basic sexual attraction between specific persons and build from that marriage and family as the basis of society.

This hex 40 is about the vital importance of regular, satisfying sexual relations to maintain the working marriage and functional family. It is a similar insight to Virginia Satir in her final years and much of family therapy--if husband and wife fail in their intimate relationships a disruptive family dynamics arises.

But I continue having the feeling that the YI was less philosophical with more practical although hidden meanings.
I agree Charly, though I don't quite see the distinction between practical and philosophical. From the analysis of the KWS this view of the hexagrams is both ultimately practical, insightful in 1100 BCE to the best our science can do today, and a sophisticate philosophy that can only be viewed with awe.

Rosada,
Now we are to hex.40.4 The focus upon the feelings in the heart express and exhaust themselves changing the time of Release (Re-lease) into hex 7 The Corps. With the sexual release of marital relations love becomes a reserve cistern of deep emotion that can be drawn upon to meet any future need.

Frank
 

Tohpol

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Jan 25, 2007
Messages
3,566
Reaction score
134
Topal-- No, all the hexagrams are not about sex, though to the pure all things are pure or upon the context of sex everything looks like sex.
This set of hexagrams are about the social structures that take basic sexual attraction between specific persons and build from that marriage and family as the basis of society.

This hex 40 is about the vital importance of regular, satisfying sexual relations to maintain the working marriage and functional family. It is a similar insight to Virginia Satir in her final years and much of family therapy--if husband and wife fail in their intimate relationships a disruptive family dynamics arises.

Frank, I didn't write sex - I wrote sexual energy. That is quite different. Indeed, "upon the context of sex everything looks sex..." But that wasn't what I was suggesting though you took it as such. Maybe you're not as pure as you think? :mischief:

One could say that, according some esoteric gnostic fragments, sexual energy IS Creativity - it has no specific "centre" it pervades the human mechanism and intellectual, emotional and instinctual energy uses sexual energy according to our state of awareness. So, in this context, sexual energy = creativity informs the I Ching. It can be creative or entropic.

I think the beauty of the Yi is that it's many, many layered - multi-dimensional even - as I'm sure you'd agree. So, therefore, I'd say that this set of hexagrams CAN be about that - but they can also be about many other principles and interpretations. (just saw this: "All other interpretations of the Yi remain valid. It is just that the structural analysis gives the inner meaning of the Yi system and adds depth and color to the specific words used to interpret the text." - ok.)

However, I don't see any "maybes" or "perhaps" or "it could be" in your descriptions. If the Book of Changes is anything, it is constantly fluid - much like reality.

Topal
 

rosada

visitor
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
9,890
Reaction score
3,171
Yes, I think we are all developing our own plot lines as we decipher what the I Ching means to us individually. Frank is reading 40 as a guide to sexual relations, I am looking for what it says about forgiveness. So while I am fascinating to read what you have found in your studies Frank, that doesn't mean they need disrupt my story.
Although now that I think about it, bad sexual relations are probably what created the need to learn forgiveness in the first place!:rofl:
 

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
107
Although now that I think about it, bad sexual relations are probably what created the need to learn forgiveness in the first place!:rofl:


That coming from a former hippie... :rofl:
 

fkegan

(deceased)
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
2,052
Reaction score
41
Frank, I didn't write sex - I wrote sexual energy. That is quite different. Indeed, "upon the context of sex everything looks sex..." But that wasn't what I was suggesting though you took it as such. Maybe you're not as pure as you think? :mischief:

One could say that, according some esoteric gnostic fragments, sexual energy IS Creativity - it has no specific "centre" it pervades the human mechanism and intellectual, emotional and instinctual energy uses sexual energy according to our state of awareness. So, in this context, sexual energy = creativity informs the I Ching. It can be creative or entropic.

I think the beauty of the Yi is that it's many, many layered - multi-dimensional even - as I'm sure you'd agree. So, therefore, I'd say that this set of hexagrams CAN be about that - but they can also be about many other principles and interpretations. (just saw this: "All other interpretations of the Yi remain valid. It is just that the structural analysis gives the inner meaning of the Yi system and adds depth and color to the specific words used to interpret the text." - ok.)

However, I don't see any "maybes" or "perhaps" or "it could be" in your descriptions. If the Book of Changes is anything, it is constantly fluid - much like reality.

Topal

Hi Topal,

Would you be happier if I replaced sex with sexual energy in my remarks?:mischief:
In any event, I would say the sexual energy you speak about is hex 11 and the set from 11 to 20, not the whole Yi. The Sunshine within the fertile Earth of 11 which completes in hex 20-- the creative birth of the wood or tree growing atop the Earth to show all the world its origins and development.

My apologies, I took your remark as sex obsessed :eek: rather than sublimated sexual energy expressed as creativity. My Freudian roots were showing. :D Didn't Freud also comment about Da Vinci's sublimated gay sexual energy giving great creativity? Maybe he was just commenting upon his situation with Fliess.

I did my undergraduate thesis exposing the Thermodynamic notion of entropy as a mix of caloric and sin. Let's not go there.

Thank you for noticing my disclaimer promoting all other views. :bows:
No, never a 'maybe' or 'perhaps' that if from my appreciation for a retired judge quoted as saying "Often in error, never in doubt!" Or my reaction to Gandhi's aphorism "Be Humble as Dust." In school I realized if you acted that humble folks would let you get away with anything, better act the opposite and then folks would come after me and the result would be humble as dust.

Actually, it is the Oracle which is fluid and up for constant change. The Yi is 64 fixed hexagrams in the fixed KWS--no change at all since 1100BCE, or recent times in Lienshan's terms.

How pure do I think I am? eh? ;) Though you do make a good point I could be less arrogant. However, I read in the Yi commentary that no one since the original big Chous could look at the hexagrams and see their meaning or figure out the KWS and I have done both, so I am still in the crowing stage about it.

When newbies come along, saying "why, of course, that is SO VERY obvious now" next year I will move on and accept being a has been from back in the day when there was no TV remote and folks didn't know the simple secrets of the Yi construction. Till then, let me enjoy my 15 minutes in the Sunshine...

Yes, I think we are all developing our own plot lines as we decipher what the I Ching means to us individually. Frank is reading 40 as a guide to sexual relations, I am looking for what it says about forgiveness. So while I am fascinating to read what you have found in your studies Frank, that doesn't mean they need disrupt my story.
Although now that I think about it, bad sexual relations are probably what created the need to learn forgiveness in the first place!
Hi Rosada,
There is nothing different in my remarks from the structural analysis of the hexagrams in this one than in earlier ones going back to hex 37--family. I wasn't aware you were telling us a story--I thought it was the Wilhelm text you were quoting. But now, going back over your posts I see you have also added in the forgiveness narrative upon the Wilhelm text.

Where would a structural analysis of the King Wen Structure turn into a personal guide to sexual relations creating a need to learn forgiveness? Of course, with hex 40-Release seen through male and female eyes. :D A classic time for objections and demands for apologies...

I thought my posts were like the ones citing the Chinese text to complement the Wilhelm, only from the structural analysis alternative. In terms of a personal meaning of the Yi lines in terms of forgiveness-- 40.3 not a warning to accept marriage and give up rakish ways, but the need to accept apologies and not hold a grudge in your backpack after you win the carriage in the court case. OK Then 40.4 is about letting go of your left toe to find the real relationship you can trust. That would be excise the ex from your heart to be open to the new fish in the sea or at least in the ground water cistern of hex 7? Sounds good.

Frank
 

Tohpol

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Jan 25, 2007
Messages
3,566
Reaction score
134
When newbies come along, saying "why, of course, that is SO VERY obvious now" next year I will move on and accept being a has been from back in the day when there was no TV remote and folks didn't know the simple secrets of the Yi construction. Till then, let me enjoy my 15 minutes in the Sunshine...

The Yi is 64 fixed hexgrams in material terms, but they are windows to infinite realms.

Thanks for all your rich thoughts Frank.

:bows:

Topal
 

getojack

visitor
Joined
Jun 13, 1971
Messages
589
Reaction score
10
40.4

九四 解而拇。朋至斯孚。
jiu3 si4 jie3 er2 mu3 peng2 zhi4 si1 fu2
 

Tohpol

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Jan 25, 2007
Messages
3,566
Reaction score
134
Oops. Yes, getting back on track...:D

40.4 hmmm. I had this line a few years ago when I was in a company that wasn't quite to my liking. Didn't gel. I like Chris Lofting's take using the idea of relaxing the structure and letting go in order to get back on the path, so to say. It's a case of: :deadhorse: which could include forgiveness. If we can release ourselves from what may even seem sensible and correct (but not necessarily TRUE) then one can allow things to slowly become more authentic in one sense, and when that is the case then it's more likely that more authenticity will manifest in our social relations be it business or personal. At least that's the theory...

Topal
 

rosada

visitor
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
9,890
Reaction score
3,171
So far seeing the Forgiveness theme developing...

40.1
Without blame.

I see this as meaning, in order to forgive we first need to relax our rigid oppositional stance.

40.2
One kills three foxes in the field
And receives the golden arrow.
Perseverance brings good fortune.

I see this as meaning The truth will set you free. That is, by simply being clear about what we know is true, our point of view, the foxes of doubt and fear that create misunderstanding are killed and when there is clear understanding forgiveness is possible.

40.3
If a man carries a burden on his back
And nonethheless rides in a carriage,
He thereby encourages robbers to draw near.
Perseverance leads to humiliation.

If the wronged party continues to bear a grudge even after the truth has come out, he will attract problems again, but it will be his own fault.

40.4
Deliver yourself from your great toe.
Then the companion comes,
And him you can trust.

Detach from your claims of being ill used, those who pander to your stories are not doing you any good. When you are no longer wasting your time with those who are feeding off your gossip you will attract friends who are of a higher order, friends who will bring out the best in you.

Well while I'm inspired here, I think I'll go ahead and peek at the next two lines...

40.5
If only the superior man can deliver himself,
It brings good fortune.
Thus he proves to inferior men that he is in earnest.

Hmmm, sounds like 40.4 is about disengaging from the outer world friends that support our feelings of being a victim, and then 40.5 is about disengaging from the inner world, our attitudes, that support them.

40.6
The prince shoots at a hawk on a high wall.
He kills it. Everything serves to further.

Again with the dealing with negative attitudes.

Wow, interesting how only the first two lines are devoted to the actual forgiveness and we need the rest of the lines to tell us how to not slip back into the ABYSMAL swamp! I guess forgiveness is easy, it's the forgetting part that's hard.

Anyway, that was just me leaping ahead. I do intend to list the lines individually here as usual.
 
Last edited:

charly

visitor
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
2,315
Reaction score
243
...
My apologies, I took your remark as sex obsessed :eek: rather than sublimated sexual energy expressed as creativity. My Freudian roots were showing. :D Didn't Freud also comment about Da Vinci's sublimated gay sexual energy giving great creativity? Maybe he was just commenting upon his situation with Fliess.
...
I thought my posts were like the ones citing the Chinese text to complement the Wilhelm, only from the structural analysis alternative...
Ey, Frank:

These are my remarks!

About Freud don't trust all the things you read. Say...
  • if somebody is gay and does something really good → sublimation!
  • if somebody is hetero and does something really good → sublimation!
  • but if somebody is gay or hetero and does something really bad, out of his/her sexual orientation? What is it?

Paraphrasing Freud: it's only a joke, maybe a BAD one!

Better I turn with the chinese characters.

Yours,

Charly
 

charly

visitor
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
2,315
Reaction score
243
...
40.6
The prince shoots at a hawk on a high wall.
He kills it. Everything serves to further.

Again with the dealing with negative attitudes. Wow, interesting how only the first two lines are devoted to the actual forgiveness...
Rosada:

Maybe 40.6 is also about forgiveness. see the following:

公gong1: Duke / feudal noble /
用yong4: to use / to apply / to sacrifice /
射she4: to shoot /
隼sun3: hawk / falcon
于yu2: at / to
高gao1: high / tall /
墉yong1: fortified wall /
之zhi1: 's / him / her / it /
上shang4: on / atop / upon / upper / higher /

獲huo4: to catch / to ge / to capture / TO CATCH NOT TO KILL !
之zhi1: 's / him / her / it /
无wu2: without / not / no / avoid /
不bu4: not / no /
利li4: advantage / benefit / profit /


Temporary literal translation:

[The] DUKE uses the HAWK shot atop of [the] high wall.
To CATCH him [was] no unprofitable.​

The line says nothing about to kill the hawk, only that the hawk was shot and that the action was a capture.

Somebody could think that to catch a hawk is unprofitable because it's no edible. But the YI is saying us that it's no unprofitable. To forgive the hawk is profitable for the hawk and for us. For the Duke is profitable because once tamed the hawk becomes a friend.

Once tamed the bird of prey can be used as a hunter in profit of his master (the Duke).

The job of taming hawks is not for all sort of people, for taming a hawk it's required a Duke (gong), I don't see a Noble-Youg (JunZi) nor a King (Wang) taming hawks.

The art of falconry comes from long ago, from prehistoric times and became a sport for nobles, not only for gentlemen but also for ladies.

To tame a hawk is like to have a Rottweiler, a Pittbull or a Bullterrier, only for skilled persons, but noble hearted.

20.jpg

from:http://ncjf.sakura.ne.jp/heritage.htm

Forgiveness is required.

Yours,

Charly
 
Last edited:

fkegan

(deceased)
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
2,052
Reaction score
41
Hi Charly,
Sorry for the tangent off topic, just a reaction to the off-topic reactions to the notion of hex 40 as referring to marital sex. In terms of Freud, your remarks are fruitful since Freud big on seeing deep meaning in jokes and his most personal letters having a range of meanings that change with the context in which they are read--very Yin.

Back to hex 40.5 develops a focus of in the mind, or the let-down or depression after Release that changes this hexagram into hex 47 Missing--the water is no longer in the lake and everyone is left looking at the lake bed structure.

Hex 40.6 develops a focus upon the transition to the Next that changes Release into hex 64 Eve or the beginning of a new process as the former completion (nuclear 63 with Yang over Yin) resists or holds on to appreciate what have been completed while clearly focused upon the Next.

Frank
 

charly

visitor
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
2,315
Reaction score
243
... Sorry for the tangent off topic, just a reaction to the off-topic reactions to the notion of hex 40 as referring to marital sex...

Frank:

Don't worry. I'm obsessed indeed.

Help me with the hawk. Maybe for getting married is needed to be fierce like a hawk.

Yours,

Charly
 

fkegan

(deceased)
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
2,052
Reaction score
41
Frank:

Don't worry. I'm obsessed indeed.

Help me with the hawk. Maybe for getting married is needed to be fierce like a hawk.

Yours,

Charly

Gia-Fu rendered this line as:
THE PRINCE SHOOTS A FALCON ON THE HIGH WALL. CAPTURES IT. EVERYTHING FRUITFUL. Having both wisdom and courage you can break the back of rebellion.

In my correspondence with the Sabian Symbols this line becomes:

The masquerade has long been in progress, and laughing young ladies at last have forced the final male to unmask.

In terms of the final result of sex that develops a focus upon what comes Next, I would see this process of capturing the hawk upon a high wall as a sense of "having nailed it" and now you can relax and move on to whatever comes next. As you say, you can't eat the hawk, you don't kill the hawk, but you have this useful bird for your next adventure.

Also, to note, hex 40 isn't about getting married (hex 32) but rather about the regular intimate relations that are the engine powering the ongoing family development through all situations and the birth of children. I would see the hawk more as an emblem of everything that might be a problem or difficulty (masked figures that need to be unmasked to keep family life on course). In that context, good married sex is what makes it possible to quell any sort of difficulty or feeling of rebellion or errant attraction. It is what makes spouses content with their lot and their lifestyle and thus ready, willing and able to get up every morning and face the challenges of that day whatever they might be. And for Rosada, forgive whatever needs to be forgiven at the end of each day too.

Frank
 

rosada

visitor
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
9,890
Reaction score
3,171
0 Six in the fifth place means:
If only the superior man can deliver himself,
It brings good fortune.
Thus he proves to inferior men that he is in earnest.

Times of deliverance demand inner resolve. Inferior people cannot be driven off by prohibitions or any external means. If one desires to be rid of them, he must first break completely with them in his own mind; they will see for themselves that he is in earnest and will withdraw.

The superior man delivers himself, because then inferior men then retreat.

The fifth place is that of the ruler. In times of deliverance, the yielding disposition of this line is appropriate, because it is in the relationship of correspondence to the strong assistants. But it is important to liberate oneself from inferior men who are also yielding in temperament. When they notice this attitude, they retreat of their own accord, The line delivers itself, as does the preceding line, by moving upward in accord with the trigram Chen.

-Wilhelm
 

rosada

visitor
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
9,890
Reaction score
3,171
Six at the top means:
the prince shoots at a hawk on a high wall.
He kills it. Everything serves to further.

The hawk on the high wall is the symbol of a powerful inferior in a high position who is hindering deliverance. He withstands the force of inner influences, because he is hardened in his wickedness. He must be forcibly removed, and this requires appropriate means.

Confucius says about this line:

The hawk is the object of the hunt; bow and arrow are the tools and means. The marksman is man (who must make proper use of the means to his end). The superior man
contains the means in his own person. He bides his time and then acts. Why then should not everything go well? He acts and is free. Therefore all he has to do is to go forth, and he takes his quarry. This is how a man fares who acts after he has made ready the means.

"The prince shoots at a hawk": thereby he delivers himself from those who resist.

The dark line at the top is injurious. With the exception of the six in the fifth place, all the yin lines in the time of DELIVERANCE tend to have a negative influence, in so far as this is not neutralized by relationships with yang lines. This highly placed evil doer is shot from below, where the trigram K'an (arrow) is situated, because the movement is upward, and thus deliverance from the last obstacle is achieved.

-Wilhelm
 
Last edited:

rosada

visitor
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
9,890
Reaction score
3,171
Hi there,

I thought I'd go ahead and post the last two lines simultaneously since I've sort of let things get a bit loose here here in this thread. I guess that's what happens with Release.

I haven't throughly studied your ideas on sexual energy here, Frank, but they look very interesting. I particularly appreciate how you tie in the resultant hexagram. How do you figure in the advice of the IMAGES?

So the hawk isn't killed but merely caught? In applying this line to the process of forgiving and forgetting I see this line as referring to the ego, that last part of us that wants to maintain we are somehow separate and superior. So in capturing the hawk we are saying we are not killing the ego, but taming it?

Isn't the statue of the man with hawk splendid? I want one! Hilary, maybe you could carry a line of artifacts along with books and jewelry!
 
Last edited:

rosada

visitor
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
9,890
Reaction score
3,171
Okay, supposing 40 does have to do with the release of sexual tension, can we really say it supports fidelity? Consider:

40.1
Two consenting adults decide to spend the night together. "No blame:
Whatever happens I'll still respect you in the morning."

40.2
It's fabulous. He "kills the fox" three times, if you get what I mean, and she dubs him, "Sir Golden Arrow". They agree to continue seeing each other.

40.3
Trouble is, she's faking it. True, he drives her around in fancy cars etc. but the sexual frustration robs her of any enjoyment.

40.4
She kicks him to the curb, vowing she can take care of herself.

40.5
At first he can't believe she means it, but he leaves her alone after she quotes Mae West, "No hand thrills me like my own."

40.6
He discards her phone number and never thinks of her again.
Ultimately they both feel everything worked out for the best.
 
Last edited:

fkegan

(deceased)
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
2,052
Reaction score
41
Hi Rosada,
My narrative is a bit less expansive than yours. I get mine from the set of hexagrams 31 to 40 with hex 31 describing the entire process of the set overall. Hex 31 is courtship, not in our modern sense of hooking up, but in the traditional (perhaps Confucian) sense of the formal protocol by which two individuals channel their personal desires into the socially respectable institution of marriage.

At the other end of the set of 10 is the pair of hex. 39 and 40. The ninth hexagram has to do with the energy maximum of the set. The 10th the final quiescent state of the set. The set is all about the institution of marriage of which sex is involved. Interesting, the perspective of the set of 10 takes courtship, not sexuality but the initial personal meeting and forming the first impressions and first enthusiastic relationship as the keynote of the whole thing.

It is only in the final pair, hex 39 and hex 40 that sexual energy appears at all, and then only as the energy that motivates the process overall. The pair of hex 37 and hex 38, family and sibling rivalry describe the other dimensions of the process, not the motivating energy but the structure. The entire family system is the core structure which is being developed by the courtship.

This is not our notion of dating where we meet our peers and explore our personal interactions. This is the formal social institution that keeps the society on keel. The family structure of spouses and kids and formal roles for each person in the family is what hex 37 is about. Hex 38 is the other end of the structure, not the overall social system, but the inner dynamics of sibling rivalry which also is built into the family system.

The 7th hexagram is the pure structure without any activity. The 8th hexagram is the dynamic structure, how the interaction of the pieces and their differences gives rise to activity. Within the family overall, there are the different children each with their special dynamic based upon birth order. When the two younger daughters (Li and Tui) are the sole focus of a hexagram with at least the elder of the two above the younger their is the minor bickering of sibling rivalry.

When these two trigrams are reversed, you get the Revolution when the younger girl insists upon upsetting the standard protocol to achieve her loyalty to the Great Principles of the family system. This is the pure youth idealism that powers the traditional change of Dynasty as the old one gets too lax and corrupt. The new youth is out of touch with the deal accepted by the older family members, only knowing the stories they were told as children which they tend move to make real.

Hex 39 and hex 40 are pure energy dynamics applied to the family process. Hex 39 is the maximizing of sexual energy to focus desire beyond immediate achievement--deferred gratification brought to service of higher aims and greater personal discipline. Hex 40 is the regular sexual relations required to keep the family system in order and to produce the children required for social survival.

The fidelity is built into the lines, since they are all part of the Family system, not just sexual activity. Passion (line 3) in the timing of sexual climax is a good time to remind folks that the point of married sex is the family and not just personal pleasure.

Again, not nearly as intriguing a narrative as yours, but this is an 1100 BCE philosophical system where personal interactions of independent teens is unthinkable. You raise another good point when you ask about the Image commentary. As I am learning these days, there are a number of streams of commentary and various perspectives attached to the hexagrams and lines of the Yi. The sets of 10 philosophy of the King Wen Sequence did not form any written commentary. To the extent it was taught it would have been an esoteric oral tradition.

The written commentary follows other perspectives. One major one was the innovations of Confucius who seems to have taken the slightly older Taoist ideas and recast them into more concrete, objective terms based upon notions of Yin and Yang and their balanced but highly formalized relations. The image is another innovation, taking the trigrams in terms of some of their many associations and imagery and applying that to concrete instructive advice. This is where the notion of the Junzi as ideal figure whose moral excellence is described in terms of the trigrams.

Frank
 

rosada

visitor
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
9,890
Reaction score
3,171
"Expansive" and "intriguing". I'm going to put that on my book jacket!:rofl:
 

Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

Top