...life can be translucent

Menu

The Book of Changes Is a Book of Divination, Not Philosophy

B

bruce_g

Guest
Ewald,

The article in question has to do with the Yijing, not just the Zhouyi.

I find your definition to be a desperately leaking boat, at best.

Pointless to continue this discussion.
 

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
107
It doesn't seem you noted that I have been careful to differentiate between Zhouyi and the Wings (before Harmen made a distinction between Zhouyi and Yijing, btw).

I made that distinction, implicitly (*), in Message #3... :p

L

(*) I think mostly everyone here, with a few years of reading Yi materials, knows what "Zhouyi" and "Yijing" are when you name them, and should be able to do so without attaching a glossary to the words, every time... See my own quote above. Newbies beware!! :D
 

ewald

visitor
Joined
May 28, 2006
Messages
510
Reaction score
15
The article in question has to do with the Yijing, not just the Zhouyi.
It seems you're accusing me now of being irrelevant, by just referring to the Zhouyi. However, I was clear to differentiate, Bruce.

Someone, like the author of the article, talking about the Yijing being "a mere fortune-telling book", is likely not talking about the philosophical parts in the Wings, he's talking about Zhouyi + commentary (and the Daxiang, perhaps), the part of the Yijing that is used for divination. So in fact, the article was probably mostly referring to the Zhouyi, instead of the entire Yijing.
 

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
107
But the point was that you didn't acknowledge me making the distinction.

I formally acknowledge it now!!

There... :rofl:

Seriously though, I find no conflict with your views on Yi and Psychology. My only argument is that there is no either/or, when paired with Philosophy, within the context of the Yi.

L

PS: ahem, let's not change or edit our posts AFTER somebody has replied to them...
 
Last edited:

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
107
So in fact, the article was probably mostly referring to the Zhouyi, instead of the entire Yijing.

Now, now..., the article isn't a brainy exposé of the Yijing (or the Zhouyi, for that matter). It is a statement of the subject's beliefs. So "probably", above, is the keyword. Reading authoring intention in a newspaper article, about a third party, is stretching it.

If I'm forced to do so, for sake of argument, I think this person is actually talking about the "I Ching" as a holistic entity, i.e. what we know as the Yijing. Within that context, it is with those views that I disagree with him.

L
 

ewald

visitor
Joined
May 28, 2006
Messages
510
Reaction score
15
PS: ahem, let's not change or edit our posts AFTER somebody has replied to them...
Actually I didn't. Your reply was there only after I had posted my edit. ("Implicitly denying" better describes what happened than "not acknowledging.")
 

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
107
Actually I didn't. Your reply was there only after I had posted my edit. ("Implicitly denying" better describes what happened than "not acknowledging.")

Last edited by ewald : Today at 11:08 AM.

My post was time-stamped 11:07

Oh, and I spit farther and I can BBQ better than you... :rofl: Try me, next time you are in New Jersey (you bring the Heineken).

L
 

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
107
Well, Luis, I think you're perfectly aware that I'm likely to be correct.

I think you are missing a "smilie" because I believe you are implicitly making a joke... :D

L
 

denis_m

visitor
Joined
Aug 3, 2006
Messages
45
Reaction score
2
I have been running about in China and havent had a chance to check in.
This is an excellent thread. I wish I could reply in detail to these posts.

I would like to make a case for the Zhouyi as a philosophical text. I disagree with Ewald's position that a philosophy is present only if made explicit. If the text was set up to encourage a search for implicit meanings (which I think it was), it is no surprise that the authors would insert their world view.

Here are some of the ways I think it articulates a philosophy:
1. It presents a world-view of organic relatedness. Qian and Kun are rooted in each other. The structure portrays a world in which the components are enmeshed and mutually contingent. Not only are they enmeshed, their significance is overdetermined and they each function in multiple ways (like codons in the genome, or neurons in a brain). The structure makes a statement at a highly general level about reality---it is filled with interlocking symmetries and counteracting tendencies largely held in balance.

2. It presents a meta-description of energy in flux. Flows of energy allow things to develop, but they carry with them the causes of their own reversal. This can be seen especially in 23, 24, 43, and 44.

3. The text is plainly concerned with ideas of balance and centrality. The second and fifth lines of many hexagrams portray centrality from various angles. Taken together, this represents a concern for how balance is to be achieved in varying situations of human life. This is a matter of ethical practice---centrality is the way of doing least harm. The Golden Mean was an important tenet of Confucian. I don't believe that the same idea, when articulated in one way is philosophy, and when articulated in another way is not.

In a couple of weeks I'll go to Sichuan---truly a trip far to the Southwest, and I hope that friends will be there. I'll have an interview. I hope to get a chance to do some some research there.
Regards,

Denis M.
 

ewald

visitor
Joined
May 28, 2006
Messages
510
Reaction score
15
I think you are missing a "smilie" because I believe you are implicitly making a joke... :D
But something being a joke doesn't rule out it being an attack of sorts. You know, the kind of joke that is at the expense of someone, of me, in this case. What seems to be the ending of an argument with joking is in fact a way of humiliating the other while trying to get away with it, and having the last word.

This is not a pissing contest for me, though it may be for you. It's about having valid arguments. (And not attaching value at the Yijing for invalid reasons.)

I don't like Heineken, btw. From the internationally available beers I prefer Carlsberg (though I seldomly drink).
 

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
107
I would like to make a case for the Zhouyi as a philosophical text. I disagree with Ewald's position that a philosophy is present only if made explicit. If the text was set up to encourage a search for implicit meanings (which I think it was), it is no surprise that the authors would insert their world view.

Denis M.

And then, the other shoe dropped... :D That was very interesting, Dennis. Thank you. I'd like to see more arguments in favor of the Zhouyi being a philosophical work. I've always have the view the Yijing was, obviously, but I've been reticent to apply that label to its predecessor.

L
 

ewald

visitor
Joined
May 28, 2006
Messages
510
Reaction score
15
Hi Denis - Interesting points.

I do think however, that the same distinction as between science and applied science (ie. technology) has to be made. I think the Zhouyi is more of applied philosophy than being a philosophy itself.
 

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
107
But something being a joke doesn't rule out it being an attack of sorts. You know, the kind of joke that is at the expense of someone, of me, in this case. What seems to be the ending of an argument with joking is in fact a way of humiliating the other while trying to get away with it, and having the last word.

Oh, come on. I've no need to "attack" you, either directly or by means of jokes. If I disagree with you, that's the end of it, in and by itself. Disagreement isn't an attack (unless you are G.W.Bush...) Now, if you have no sense of humor to accept what I said above about your previous entry, that's your loss, not mine. It was my way of saying that you are completely wrong in thinking that "I" think you were likely correct. If you prefer that latter version, rather than the former, there it is.

L
 

heylise

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 15, 1970
Messages
3,128
Reaction score
202
:bows: Luis, you'd fit well in the thread about the sage.

I like Dennis' arguments (or rather knowledge) a lot. The philosophical aspect of the Yi is the reason why I could get so involved with it for so many years. And I hardly look at the wings, it is almost exclusively the Zhouyi I work with. An exception is the Da Xiang though.

LiSe
 

denis_m

visitor
Joined
Aug 3, 2006
Messages
45
Reaction score
2
Thanks LiSe and Luis.

I can see Ewald's point. Maybe the Yi is a work of art which is informed by a philosophy. It's hard to say what philosophy is behind it, it's so Rohrsachlike.

A generation ago in my own life, I studied some works by Whitehead. Now organic philosophy is what I see in the Yi. (Big coincidence.) There's a little bit of #25 in my conviction that that's what's really there.

My brother-in-law, who never studied the Yi, has watched me study it over the years. He said two things that struck me: "It's some kind of mind virus." and "It's all about cross-referencing."

I like the tie to psychology brought in by Bruce and Brad. Why does the mind interpret things one way or another? It's a question of personal history and motivation, and a field day for Freud.
Regards,

Denis M.

Since
 
B

bruce_g

Guest
Maybe the Yi is a work of art which is informed by a philosophy. It's hard to say what philosophy is behind it, it's so Rohrsachlike.

Hi Denis,

Yes, that is what I was trying to say. Not to state that there's an institutional philosophy inherent in the Yi, though there can be that too, if that's what someone reads into it (i.e. Wilhelm), but that ones personal philosophy is part of the cognitive process; as you say, "informed by a philosophy", even if that personal philosophy is fluid or art like.
 

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
107
He said two things that struck me: "It's some kind of mind virus." and "It's all about cross-referencing."

Ha! Amazing metaphor! Yes, I can see it that way, indeed.

L
 

stevev

visitor
Joined
Jun 12, 2006
Messages
216
Reaction score
1
It’s all philosophy to me

I don’t much care what the original authors intended, what others have used it for or see in it, as far as I’m concerned anybody can see and use it anyway they like. To me it’s always been a system of classification that encourages judgement for the purpose of finding the mean. Divination and the mystical interpretation of the answers has always seemed a bit of a joke really, and I generally have to agree with Chris that most of the Hexagrams are relevant to just about any question, the only thing I wonder about is why many answers seem more appropriate than a statistical evaluation of chance might suggest.

Don’t get me wrong, I have and will continue to consult the I Ching, it’s a part, and such a unique method of interaction with the philosophy that’s fun, engaging, beneficial and maybe just personal. It’s also some sort of romantic link to the stone age or maybe just to the evolution of the mind.

I can’t make heads or tails out of most of the original text which I generally only give a cursory glance, it’s the commentaries and ideas both written and imaginal that excite me, and it’s the future not the past that I’m interested in.


 

bradford

(deceased)
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 30, 2006
Messages
2,626
Reaction score
410
Still not ready to say that the Yi represents a philosophy, but I too am stuck on the question of explicitness. If someone were to allow that Nietzsche's Thus Spake Zarathustra is as much a work of philosophy as Beyond Good and Evil, then I might go that far at least.
It's definitely got an attitude, but nothing I see is consistent all the way through the book in terms of expressing a structured world view (until we get to the Wings).
The consistent themes that I see expressed throughout are way's of approaching life and life's situations. While much of this might come under the heading of Ethics, the philosophy of behavior, which is indeed a major branch of philosophy, I don't see it postulating a physics that's any more complicated than "bad consequences tend to follow upon boneheaded decisions."
 
B

bruce_g

Guest
Still not ready to say that the Yi represents a philosophy, but I too am stuck on the question of explicitness. If someone were to allow that Nietzsche's Thus Spake Zarathustra is as much a work of philosophy as Beyond Good and Evil, then I might go that far at least.
It's definitely got an attitude, but nothing I see is consistent all the way through the book in terms of expressing a structured world view (until we get to the Wings).
The consistent themes that I see expressed throughout are way's of approaching life and life's situations. While much of this might come under the heading of Ethics, the philosophy of behavior, which is indeed a major branch of philosophy, I don't see it postulating a physics that's any more complicated than "bad consequences tend to follow upon boneheaded decisions."

:rofl:

*bows, uttering, i am not worthy*

Seriously, that was great.

No, I don't see Yi as having this "constitution of rightness", or anything else which would constitute a philosophy. Certainly not a motive. What works on the back end and front end of it, is another matter.

My embrace of Yi comes from nature, not philosophy. What I make of it is "my trip". Has nothing to do with good or bad, right or wrong. It has to do with being true to my nature. Learning exactly just what that nature is is half of the quest. The other half is, learning to be it. THAT is a philosophy.
 
B

bruce_g

Guest
I also still hold, Brad, that some philosophical component must be active in order to transmute the images put forth by Yi into cognitive reasoning, whereby psychology can operate.
 
B

bruce_g

Guest
Even the concept of good and bad constitutes a philosophy. What does nature know of good and bad, besides what enables it to live?
 

Trojina

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
26,921
Reaction score
4,426
Seems all to rest on ones definition of philosophy, a defined explicit body of beliefs or a background implicit constellation of beliefs. I don't even see someones uttering a sentence without some kind of (implicit) philosophy behind it, there is no neutral space (where words are used at least) where a philosophy is not implicit. Certainly I don't think there is any psychology without philosophy. If psychology is self looking at self, humans studying humans then there will always be a background philosophy to what is studied, how it is conceptualised etc No science without implicit philosophy either IMO.

Follows in my mind then that Bruce has a point, even if there were not an explicit defined philosophy in the Yi seems virtually impossible it does not permeate it like it does everyhere words are uttered/written.
 

frank_r

visitor
Joined
Jun 20, 1971
Messages
639
Reaction score
31
My embrace of Yi comes from nature, not philosophy. What I make of it is "my trip". Has nothing to do with good or bad, right or wrong. It has to do with being true to my nature. Learning exactly just what that nature is is half of the quest. The other half is, learning to be it. THAT is a philosophy.

Yes, I don't know if someone else other mentioned already nature, but for me that's what the Yi is all about, the philosophy of nature. Grounded in the phylosophy off emptiness, the Yuan, the source. Using metaphors of nature in psyhological stories, with a touch of quality, in which direction it can devellop.
 

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
107

stevev

visitor
Joined
Jun 12, 2006
Messages
216
Reaction score
1
I work with a several Chinese guys who have no respect for the I Ching because they have seem it used as a book of divination, a contemporary of the Tarot, astrology and psychics, by people who have no understanding of it and simply go to a practitioner to have their futures told and their problems solved.

I think it’s the structures ie. the diagrams that constitute the foundation of the philosophy of the I Ching. Change is expressed though their consistency, or rather their consistent representation of the categories through which change is defined. The words change around them, for different purposes and in different times. The fact that the diagrams, and even the concept of Yin and Yang weren’t part of the original, as it now seems fairly evident, doesn’t matter to me, hey things change.
 

thedave

visitor
Joined
Apr 4, 2007
Messages
24
Reaction score
0
Hmm, didnt Kongzi say something about if he could add 30 more years to his life he would have spent them studying the Yi?
 

bradford

(deceased)
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 30, 2006
Messages
2,626
Reaction score
410
Hmm, didnt Kongzi say something about if he could add 30 more years to his life he would have spent them studying the Yi?

He is said by some to have said 50 years with the Yi would have helped him avoid errors.
But this statement is widely disputed - most say 50 years of study would have ...
 

Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

Top