In his book Alfred Huang say that learning Yi ching is possible only from live teacher, so is it really possible to learn it like this way, from the books?

It's like learning to ride a bicycle. We need the example of others, but one must simply get on and pedal, and after a few falls one knows. Nonverbal aspects (balance, coordination, habit) come from practice, not words or a teacher's physical presence. I double that it is possible to learn the Yi if one depends on a teacher and does not come to trust oneself.

I never had an official teacher, on a day I started to ask the yi a sign, something to learn for the day. I have done that for years now and it worked pretty well. The process started to mingle with my dreams, it made me study anthropology (yes i've got a master's) and later on it felt as if the spirit of Yi was guiding me. I still do it.
At first it was like comparing text with "reality", later it became a sensing of rhytms and resonations, comparing structures and patterns, step by step, very 46-like.

That's one of the beauties of exploring the I Ching as a tool for self-discovery and self-work - you don't necessarily need a teacher. Learning to trust oneself as Tom said is vital and in the end, does become a workable, practical possibility with the I Ching IF one is prepared to do the work and apply the principles, as with most things.

However, I'd say it certainly helps a very great deal to have friends or a network such as Clarity that contains serious and less serious scholars in the art and who follow the teachings in the I Ching and / or a spiritual path of some kind. Keeping a record of readings cast and discerning patterns and themes in the answers is very constructive. As you do this, your relationship to the Yi deepens and "grooves". It's an absolute prerequisite that a large variety of I Ching books are sitting happily in your library in order to distill all the diverse interpretations into something that speaks to you and yet still remains true to the original as I understand it. (Karcher for example, is a case of way too much creative licence for my taste.)

It also helps a great deal if you have some ability / experience in sifting truth from BS in the world and especially yourself then the I Ching can be invaluable. I think that can come from life experiences in general that strips off the old ego clutter that can prevent a real connection to the I Ching in the beginning but after a bit of suffering and the school of hard knocks this can eventually signal a time for a more fruitful approach. Perhaps that's why the Yi often seems to be more appealing to those in their 30s, 40s and over when a certain amount of **** has happened and the "receptors" are more accessible. Er...Or not, as the case may be lol.

That said, the I Ching can serve as a primary teacher as long as you have the discipline in yourself to take the time to really interprete and contemplate; not to see it as a slot-machine for instant answers based on fortune-telling.

about real life I ching teachers: I wish I had met some, but perhaps I was blind and did not see them, perhaps the teachers did not like me etc. So, my relation with the yi has always been a kind if "spirit marriage". I am still open in meeting a real life teacher with all the transference-phenomena.

And I would like to transfer all the insights I weaved in life to some pupils. Perhaps it is time for me to write a book.

But I did/do have a lot of friends and peers ( e.g. here, on clarity) for learning and that is something I appreciate a lot.

yamabushi said:

In his book Alfred Huang say that learning Yi ching is possible only from live teacher, so is it really possible to learn it like this way, from the books?

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well there aren't many I ching teachers about so if you waited to find one you might never be able to consult at all. (oh except Hilary of course...unless you mean by 'live' the teacher has to teach in person, face to face)

Part of the beauty of having Yi as a resource is the independence it can give you. It ackowledges the times when noone sees you, when you can accomplish nothing. I came accross this on hexagram 38 http://livingichingblog.com/2010/11/22/the-noble-one-estrangement/ where it talks about how 'it is prudent to know how to be the lone person'. I feel the I Ching gives us great support at such times because the outside pressure to conform to social standards is enormous and often an irrelevant measure of who and where we are in our lives.

Hmmm so I think it is better to just start consulting rather than hang around for non existent i ching teachers.

I think total newbies can understand their own answers sometimes despite what these people say about needing teachers etc. I recall understanding one of my first answers, I recall it was predictive and it was helpful .....I often think how unlikley it was I could possibly have understood it, it was years before the internet and Clarity (I had no teacher or even anyone to talk with about it)...but looking back i can see i did understand and it did help. So how can someone make a pronouncement that we cannot start to use Yi till we have a teacher. Hmm sometimes I feel they are protecting their own interests, making out its only for a special few and so on. I've never bought that.


Having said that I agree with Topal that having somewhere such as Clarity is incredibly helpful..and I have plenty of teachers here, so having plenty of teachers is better than just one !



BTW as someone else said even if you only have books you can note how your answers play out and learn from that. One thing that hadn't occured to me that I think Hilary suggested was that its a good idea to ask about less vital things for the sake of learning. Often we only ask when theres an urgent problem...or something we deem important...but then theres alot of pressure on whereas if we ask about quite small things it gives a chance to learn about how Yis answers play out. I say this because I recall mostly your questions are about quite serious matters. Maybe when you have time you could learn by also asking about less serious things so you have more space to learn, rather than trying to learn whilst you are also very worried about something etc


Maybe Huang meant you need a teacher for learning the Yi in the scholarly sense though rather than just using it for help with problems ?

The best way is to live an interesting life and get into every kind of mischief the Yijing uses for metaphors.
You can have live teachers and dead teachers too. Books work. Learning to read Chinese works. Forum-ing works. Experience works. Journaling helps. Writing your own book helps, but not as much as re-writing it. Best is to get all that into a good mix.

yamabushi said:

In his book Alfred Huang say that learning Yi ching is possible only from live teacher, so is it really possible to learn it like this way, from the books?

Click to expand...

In Changes it is said:
"無有師保，如臨父母。"
"Although having no teacher, approach them (Changes) as you would your parents."

So Yi Jing itself denies that learning of it is possible only from live teacher. This is also confirmed internally in several other places in Yi. Besides, there are no formal/official live teachers for Yi for some (long) time now.

I suppose it could also be said that a teacher of someone like Wilhelm might have been the source of many of his errors of understanding, leading him to not shop around for other alternative opinions and compare those for their merits.
There is also a problem to note when learning strictly on your own, as we see here a lot. Someone might develop an edifice of understanding that's so idiosyncratic that it's incomprehensible to others and so it can't be developed any further by discussion and feedback. Maybe there it's better to have many teachers.
There is a mentality suggested by Huang calling himself a master that suggests that he was just about done with learning and would not develop much further. Perhaps he wanted to be this "teacher", but at what cost to his students?

One might as well need a master of heaven and earth and the elements between. Oh wait, that is the Yi! Can one master a master? If not for a student, what worth would a master be?

I asked the I Ching to comment on the possibility of learning the I Ching without a living teacher and received 10.2.4.5 > 27:

10
Treading on the tail of the tiger.
It does not bite the man. Success.

The superior man discriminates between high and low,
And thereby fortifies the thinking of the people.

10.2
The sage treading his path alone.
10.4
The inner power is there but one must be cautious.
10.5
One must be resolute in conduct.

27.Perseverance brings good fortune.
Pay heed to the providing of nourishment
And to what a man seeks
To fill his own mouth with.

The superior man is careful of his words
And temperate in eating and drinking.
Wilhelm

yup! the master has spoken
seems we can find the master without a guide but we have to walk thru the jungle first (!)

I think the question with teachers is a personal one too; some people learn better being closely guided through new landscapes, some want to find their own way around and only occasionally check and measure their progress to the suggestions of others and both have their pros and cons . . a lot depends on the teacher's style of teaching also imo.

And what about that saying about students and teachers: 'when the student is ready, the teacher appears'?
. . maybe being a student includes trusting the learning process and having faith that what we ask for will be provided to us on a 'need to know basis' . . (including the teachers! )

rosada said:

I asked the I Ching to comment on the possibility of learning the I Ching without a living teacher and received 10.2.4.5 > 27:

10
Treading on the tail of the tiger.
It does not bite the man. Success.

The superior man discriminates between high and low,
And thereby fortifies the thinking of the people.

10.2
The sage treading his path alone.
10.4
The inner power is there but one must be cautious.
10.5
One must be resolute in conduct.

27.Perseverance brings good fortune.
Pay heed to the providing of nourishment
And to what a man seeks
To fill his own mouth with.

The superior man is careful of his words
And temperate in eating and drinking.
Wilhelm

Click to expand...

Maybe this also mean that you must be careful with using Yi advices, if you dont understand them good, it can be dangerous...

yamabushi said:

Maybe this also mean that you must be careful with using Yi advices, if you dont understand them good, it can be dangerous...

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VERY true indeed.

I wonder if the original quote was referring to the nature of an oral tradition, or learning from a teacher, where a portion of what you learn is not the content but the how. You watch how the teacher teaches and learn something that the words do not say. Or the teacher presents something in a way so that the understanding is achieved through experience, not just an accumulated fact. In this way, a body of knowledge can live on through time largely independent of the specific facts its current generation works with.

I just came across something in Wilhelm that I think addresses this question and posted it on The Great Treatise thread.

Pg 324.
The footnote says the Ideas and images in the I Ching can awaken the spiritual understanding in man if he has the right inner relationship with this tao.

So according to Wilhelm it is NOT necessary to have a living teacher.

-rosada