hi all, i've been concerned about something i said to a man (lover) recently. i was feeling somewhat ignored so i expressed that, although i was careful to make it clear that i was not expecting any specific behaviour from him and although i was a bit confused by his attitude it was ok for him to do whatever felt right for him, and i would do the same at my end. on the whole, i think what i said was not confrontational or judgemental, as i really didn't feel that way. at least i would like to believe so. but since then he has been unresponsive and i wonder if it has to do with that - as it might be something else altogether, who knows.

so i asked -

what's going on here?
56.2 > 50

did he feel hurt, did my comments seem unfair to him?
46.1,3,4 > 54

please, could any of you help? i can't make any sense of this and feeling confused. maybe it's a men are from mars kinda thing??

best,
xx sl

dear all,

sorry to bring this back up, but i'm having a hard time with this one and would be so grateful for some advice...

i seem to be in the middle of a communications breakdown with someone, it's gone from everything's fine and dandy to total silence, and i'm really confused.

i've asked what would be the best course of action to 'rescue' the situation and got
51.3 >55

this seemed to suggest that literally taking action would be a good thing, even if the response itself might not.

so i asked what kind of action would be best
57.4 >44
my take on this is that again action is recommended, if of a gentle kind, and that i should meet him halfway because as LiSe says in 44.4, 'too much distance causes sterility'

but i'm still worried that it has been my actions (keeping in touch when he was doing a men are from mars version of garbo - 'i want to be alone') that have mysteriously taken things off course.

finally i asked when would be the right time for action, and the answer was 29. this one i can't make sense of.

so please, if anyone has any ideas, i would appreciate it so much.

best,
xx sugar lobster

S.L.-

Our guide has produced such an amazing series of reponses for you. You are truly sincere. I can only refect the path, so please bear with me; this may seem a little terse.

First of all -
Drop the coins, sticks, marbles, whatever; close the book; and step away. To keep this conversation up will only drive you crazy.

Every primary Hex produced is doubled. This is truly wonderful.
I focus the Tri's. I know what they tell me, but that is not the issue. I'm nobody - so, a gain of salt and all that.

The lines are drawn, that's where I'll respond.
The third line (51.3) tells to move to the fourth - Time to quit watching, studying, etc. This is not a role for an apprentice. Take the part of the guiding teacher (minister).

The fourth line (57.4) tells that, as a minister, you provide what you can for their physical and spirtual well being, with a fair amout of success; But only half of the mental.

And three out of four is generally not bad. Except we're dealing with humans, so all bets are off...

The two sides of mentality are intellect and emotion. In this case, I'm thinking igorance of emotion (you are 'entertaining'); I'm probibly wrong; but, again, it doesn't matter what I think.

Nonetheless, and fortunatly, they both are dealt with essentially the same way - though it's not easy. I've been at it for twenty plus years and I still suck. And being that I never let it stop me before, here goes...

In order to truly know (understanding is not enough) what someone else values or expects from their existance (and, thus, yours), you must remove any personal priority of your own.
In other words, it doesn't matter what -
you feel
you think
you want
you need.
This is the place of the heart, and yours is in the way.

It is not enough to 'walk a mile in their shoes', you need to completly crawl inside their skin, without any preconception or reservation.
If they are in your universe, then permission is a given; however, you are allowed only to observe, not to particapate.

And this is only temporary, so don't get comfortable. You'll have crawl back in order to take action on what is learned.

Meditate and see them as they are, not as you see them; Remember that what you wish or desire has no bearing here. Go inside, ask about anything and accept everything; don't push or argue, or you'll be tossed out, making it that much harder to get back in no matter how long you wait (There is no time).
Be honest with yourself and accepting of what you learned (Good or Bad, from your point of view).

Now, based on this new information, you can begin to teach. Work on moving back together, or at least staying friends, for now. Whatever works and is best for both.

Reading back on this dopey essay I admit this is simplistic and perhaps senseless. I usually work one on one, face to face. But I have no choice but to care and respond when I hear cries from the wilderness, and you were screaming.

Remember: True Peace comes only through concordance or solitude. Peace for it's own sake is unattainable.

I hope this is of some use.
Thank you and be well.
Fred

Hi SL...

I love Frederick's interpretation, and his male POV on the situation is like the cherry on top of the sundae...for me.

A lot of people, not just men, back away from a relationship when they feel they're getting too close. Love is scary. Then they come back, then they back away again, and eventually they commit to trust. I suspect that might the case here since everything was moving along so swimmingly before he started to back away. It might have been a minor booboo to his ego to hear you're feeling ignored...that he's ignoring you...failing you, but the Yi seems to think it's fixable.

Don't forget what John Grey says for us women to do when our men go into their caves (it sounds like your man is in his cave at the moment). Give them a tender kiss and hug, tell them we love them, that we're going out with the girls, to a movie, shopping, wherever we go to leave them alone and enjoy our own lives and we'll see them whenever they come out of their caves. Pat Collins adds a little more insight into the "cave" syndrome. She says if a man backs away, leave him alone and give him seven weeks to return. If he doesn't return within seven weeks, he's gone.

Under the circumstances, however, it seems a little encouragement on your part is in order before you start the countdown. How does this sit with you as a little encouragement? How about a short note..."I love you, I miss you and I look forward to seeing you again"...or "I feel there's a miscommunication between us that I really want to get past because I miss you and want to see you again"...or something along those lines...something with a smile, kiss and hug in it. Then wait it out?

Love,

Val

Val -
This is no more than simple non-intrusive energy work.
The reason for the elemination of any personal wish or desire is to remove selfish contaminates that might taint the result.
Are you familar with Hex 31?

Fred

And besides -
Why wait for seven weeks for something that can be discovered in seven minutes?

Frederick...

Would love some clarification from you. I initially thought you were talking rather prosaically about empathy...to try to imagine his position, put all selfish considerations aside, and try to see things from his POV...which is what I was doing in my post.

If you're talking about literally getting into his mind, I've done that many times...with the person's permission and knowledge but only once intentionally and once quite accidentally without their permission and knowledge.

In my meditation, as part of the process, I send out love to those close to me and then to all of mankind, and I use creative visualization to send to those close to me. I picture them in my mind and surround them with love or say loving things. One night, I went to create a picture of a friend to send him love, but the picture was sent to me, and I was shown his then state of mind...how he was feeling at the moment. It was a very unpleasant experience. I felt a great deal of compassion for him, but I did not like seeing what he felt. I also did not like that it was indeed intrusive. He may not have felt my presence, but I was where I didn't belong nonetheless...in his private world. I was invading his privacy, and I believe in everyone's right to privacy. I did it intentionally once when I was much younger and much more foolish than I am now. I tried, quite successfully, remote viewing.

I'd known since I was a child that I just "knew" things, but never really questioned it. When I was in my early 20s, however, I discovered the true extent of my ability to get into the mind of another. I was leaning on my boyfriend, quite relaxed and was seeing pictures in my mind. I shared them with him until he finally stopped me and explained that I was seeing his life previous to meeting me. I immediately tried on a couple of other people with their knowledge and permission, of course.

I have since studied under Maria Papapetros and learned from her that it is unwise...bad karma... to try to control another or invade another's privacy on an unconscious level...that one must never read another...get into their mind...without their knowledge and permission and, when doing so must give back to the other everything that one sees and feels. Besides, it's just common sense and common courtesy.

If what I just described is what you mean, then I disagree with you. To hear from the Yi is one thing, to go into a person's mind, unbidden, is quite another. The Yi will tell me what is appropriate for me to know. And that's enough for me. If you're talking about something else altogether, then I'm not quite understanding, and I would love for you to elaborate. I don't want to make any assumptions here.

Yes, I'm familiar with hexagram 31. What part of 31 specifically are you thinking about and what are you thoughts?

Thanks for sharing.

Love,

Val

hi frederick - and thanks. yes, i was screaming a bit wasn't i... looks like it's been a storm in a teacup kinda thing, communications are back on line (his doing) as if nothing was the matter - we'll see where it goes.

the funny thing is, yesterday morning, before i read your post in the evening (it was so wonderful to get a response, so thanks again!) i had decided, as you so wisely say, to step back and drop the book, as i could see i was driving myself crazy and not leaving any space for true awareness and acceptance to rise of themselves. so i decide to pull back and let things 'be' and go with the flow and trust my tao, and the very next day he gets in touch. you've got to trust the magic.

still, if you don't mind, and partly just out of a wish to understand the i ching better, could you explain what you mean by all primary hexs being doubled and focusing on the trigrams?

and when you were talking about the lines, where you referring to general meanings of lines 3 and 4 in any hex, or those particular ones?

as for meditating and 'crawling' into their skin, i took that as an approximation, i didn't think you meant that one can literally do that, but after reading val's post maybe you did mean it literally. i never thought that was possible. but even as an approximation, making the effort to get one's ego out of the way in order to better understand otheres, it seems like a very worthwhile exercise.

much love,
xx sl

hi val,

thanks for your support, much appreciated. yes i believe he was in his cave, he tends to go there regularly
i'm generally good at just getting on with stuff when he does, but this time for some reason it felt unfair and got me in a head-spin. oh well, different people, different realities.

what i wonder, though, in view of the fact that he's got back in touch without me doing anything, what the yi might have meant by 51.3>55, 57.4>44 and 29.

maybe it was referring to the bigger picture? i asked what i could do to improve communications and got 41, which is partly why i finally decided to relax and let things be a while. it certainly worked, i think it got the right kind of energy flowing and unblocked things.

take care,
xx sl

i suddenly in beloved's skin once -- felt his heartbeat, pulse beat, sweat on palms...- nervous system...everything....then back in my own skin... and i shook for hours.....has this happened to anyone else????

Yes, Clove, something like that has happened to me. I went into my beloved's skin during lovemaking and experienced his orgasm and mine simultaneously. It was through the roof... incredible!

Namaste,
Joan

SL...

I'm just wondering...since we're talking about empathy here. Might it be that the Yi is telling you what is going on with him? It's hard to tell from where I sit. You would know better.

51.3 is ok. It's about momentary loss of presence of mind brought on by fear...about doing or saying something impetuously. And while there's no real advantage in the situation, there's no harm either.

57.4 is cool. Good line. It's about taking decisive action with the right attitude. It means avoiding the calamity that can result from too much weakness.

29 is about overcoming danger.

He was momentarily shocked by your expression of feeling ignored. He ran into his cave. In his cave, he thought about things and decided the relationship is important to him, and he'd better act decivisely. He called, and in so doing overcame the danger. Just a thought.

Love,

Val

Joan thanks for responding. Always wondered, & never asked anyone.

Guys -

wow... er... uh...
If a man sits in his room...
Dissemination of the positive or negitive...
For a thousand li...
Nothing can be fully realized by anything else on any level.
Nothing is beyond an arm's reach...
A whisper is a shout.
Allowances.
Okay...

SugarLobster - I am pleased to know that you are well. It's nice when good things happen of their own accord.
Magic, like chaos, is simply an unreconized pattern. Once it is seen for what it is, it's yours, you own it.

Trigrams.
Hexagrams.
Monograms.
Candygrams?

The flip of a coin. The dividing of sticks. The turn of a card. The little squiggles on top that tell you what's inside.
I'm not a keeper of secrects. I really don't know any. Please understand that when I say that I can't say, I'm not hiding. Trigrams and their combinations give me a feeling. I actually tried to express it, though only once. I ended up with over 50,000 words that didn't say a thing. The people that read it couldn't get through it. I raised far more questions than were answered, and more than a little animosity. Much confusion. I was humiliated.
I apologised, like I am to you now, and let it go.

51 -> Thunder, doubled.
57 -> Wind, doubled.
29 -> Water (moving), doubled.

The lines? 51.3 and 57.4. Yours. You recast, so the results (Hexagrams) of your first message were moot.
The rest of my gibberish focused on Hex 29...

Val and S.L. - I'll remind you in case there is any doubt. You asked. I'll try to answer; but the same disclaimers apply as they in in my initial response.
That is, I don't know Jack (well, actually, I do... Tall, thin, red hair; crazy as an outhouse rat).
Okay?
The Yi presents itself, to me, as apex-ual, pennicular, acme-ish. So I look to the mean.
64 over 2 is 32.
31 leads to 32.
To lead is to follow. To teach is to learn. How long anything endures depends on the initial influence. How better an influence if it is their idea in the first place? Their purpose, their motives, build the imperitive.
This is not cause and effect. I'm not talking of shooting pool. I personally handed Newton his hat a long time ago. As for Karma - the seeming endless chain of cause and effect - pure illusion.
Not to discount compensation.
Corn or thistles, one reaps what one sows.

To the subject at hand -
To me, the rest of the combinates (Hexagrams), for the most part, are procedures and allowances, attitudes and states of mind, cautions and hazards, that define the most efficent way to get the purest 31 to the most enduring 32.

SugarLobster finished with 29. The trigram of the abysmal (moving water) tells me (in this case)that one cannot be a tourist when it comes to ones own life. When one is in danger, then the only way out is take active control. Provided that one doe not seriously hurt anyone else in the process. To get out of danger, one needs a route. One is allowed, even encouraged, to use any and all resourses available in the time to find that route. Worry about damage control later.
Stake your life on following your will.
The loss of the magic turtle is an myth.
We cannot lose what truly belongs to us, even if we throw it away.
S.L. was in a dimishing situation. Life processes were askew. Little pleasure eating, sleeping, even breathing. Not allowed. She seemed to need aknowledgement. To be patient requires an end. Waiting is easier if there is something to wait for...
How do we discover this?
Ask. If they won't tell you, then find out on your own. You are obliged to survival.
Fear? Rejection? How good of a friendship was it in the first place if something as simple as this is a threat?
At least you'll know.

Terse? Yes. Harsh? Cold? Cruel? Perhaps.
Such is danger.
There is no time. Take as much as is needed; but don't waste it.

The incomfort of seeing into someone is directly proportional to the amount of expectation of the seer.
High expectaions are reckless.
Lose insincerity.

Thank you for your tolerence.
Be safe.

Fred

Frederick...

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

S.L. was in a dimishing situation. Life processes were askew. Little pleasure eating, sleeping, even breathing. Not allowed. She seemed to need aknowledgement. To be patient requires an end. Waiting is easier if there is something to wait for...
How do we discover this?
Ask. If they won't tell you, then find out on your own. You are obliged to survival.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you! I understand. You are saying what I thought. And I still very much disagree with the concept of going into someone else's mind uninvited. It is not the way to survival. Disrespecting the rights of others, including their right of privacy on any level, is not about survival.

Hexagram 31 is about influencing and being influenced. The superior woman receives people by virtue of her emptiness. The image is that of a mountain. A mountain is still. It does not go out to collect the clouds that will form a lake in its deepened receptive hollow. It attracts them by the very nature of its stillness. The image of the lake on the mountain and the clouds that feed the lake is that of reciprocity. It takes two. Consent is required. Thus the superior woman encourages her man to approach her by her readiness to receive him. One only needs remain open, not go probing.

And that's what SugarLobster did when she took her focus off his temporary absence in her life...she put the book down, she emptied herself and became receptive, and he called.

Staying with oneself and one's own feelings about the situation is the way to survival. Going deep into oneself for the answers to one's own feelings, one has the opportunity to remove old debris from the mountain's summit and thereby deepen it's hollow to receive the lake.

If we search outside ourselves...by probing into others' mind or any other means...for answers to our feelings, we will search forever. If we look inside ourself, we will find the answers and so much more.

Love always,

Val

Val -
Thank you.
For the record, I was writing of Hex 29, not 31. 29 gives allowances; providing one is sincere and does only what is needed, in order to get out of danger.

You are appreciated.
Take care.
Fred

Hi Frederick...

Well now I'm the one who's confused. I thought you were referring to hexagram 31 because of this particular post:

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

By Frederick (Frederick) on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 04:28 am:

Val -
This is no more than simple non-intrusive energy work.
The reason for the elemination of any personal wish or desire is to remove selfish contaminates that might taint the result.
Are you familar with Hex 31?

Fred<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

I suppose then I misunderstood the connection you were trying to make between your two statements and the question about my familiarity with hex 31.

Thank you Frederick! I appreciate you as well...*grin*

Love,

Val

val, fred,

thanks both for taking the time to think about this.

this particular glitch is over, but for me it has been a bit of a wake-up call. as fred says, i have to think about why it has felt so difficult. there's a communications issue here and as always in these cases it takes two to tango. but all i can do is work on my side of things, and make my own decisions as i go along.

much love to both,
xx sl

S.L. - You are very welcome, that's what I'm here for. Perhaps your trying too hard?

And Val, I haven't forgotten, I'm just busy. I am working on it.

Much peace and love to you both,

Fred

Clove, Joan and Val,

How strange it must be and how disturbing - as well as empowering to get into someone else's mind and thoughts! I wish I could so I would laways know the other as he should be known. My boyfriend too has this ability to put his fingers to my head and read each thought as I think it! Makes me feel glad that he can for that means he loves me for what I really am. And he always tells me about it. And he does this very rarely for he feels it can imply a lack of trust in me.

Best for your Quest

Anita

I agree, Anita.
It would be disturbing if you could get into someone?s head and read their thoughts at will. Even more disturbing would be the thought that if you could do it, someone else could do it to you.

But I wonder if actual ?thought reading? has ever been substantiated in a scientifically controlled experiment. I don?t mean those in which one person describes the symbol or object that the other person is looking at, because that can be the result of a different kind psychic ability, such as clairvoyance. I mean actually plucking an abstract thought out of a stranger?s head, without the benefit of sensory input from body language, facial expression, context and so forth.

I didn?t mention this in my post, Anita, but when love was new my beloved and I very frequently seemed to read each other?s thoughts. One would say something, and the other would exclaim, ?That?s just what I was going to say!? or, "You read my mind!"

We did not find that to be at all disturbing. On the contrary, it was fun, a source of joy and laughter, and it brought us closer together. But, ? and I am speaking only for myself here, so don?t anyone else get bent out of shape, please ? I never felt as if I were actually inside his head reading his thoughts; nor did I feel any ?alien? presence inside mine. It always felt like it was my own thought, which arose independently in my own mind, and that through some strange bond, arose simultaneously in his mind too. That in itself is something wondrous, but altogether different, I think, from an invasion of privacy, if that is what you were speaking of.

Namaste,
Joan

Joan,

On the other hand I suppose the need to read a another's thoughts does not arise when two people are totally honest with each other. But it would be really exciting to do that. How easy it would be to know your true friends!

What you describe -- thinking the same thoughts is known to happen among those who share a deep emotional bond. That is something I have experienced too.

Best for your Quest

Anita

SugarLobster -

You inspired me. I actually sat down and was able to put down what the trigrams say to me. Somewhat...
However, I felt reservations and I asked the Yi about posting it. It told me that I already know better. Active, radical approches such as mine can cause rifts, factioning. I have experienced this before, and I learned that it is best to shut up and do what I know is right.
As in poetry and art, this only means something to the person who created it, namly me (and a few others); for the rest, just as many can adore it as there are wishing to burn it down. 'Nuff.

Please find your own way. Read all the different transliterations you can find, and draw the line from your own eye.
When I first realised how this book I had been studying could actually speak for itself, I conversed with it for days. I found that we are its favorite subjects, its only subjects; and it is quite chatty and very friendly. If there is anywhere to find the answer to the trite question of 'Life, the Universe, and Everything...', relax, you're here. No need to look any further. You know this.
Even better, for now that we are amid the Electronic Information Age, what once took me days is reduced to hours.
Make it your teacher, your healer; take it everywhere like would your best friend.
This is so cool.

As I said, you are sincere. You will not fail. Life is simple, easy, and good.
So ask... anything, everything.
Learn it all and put it to good use.

Val -
I will parapharse myself -

"The Yi presents itself, to me, as apex-ual, pennicular, acme-ish. So I look to the mean...
...31 leads to 32.
To lead is to follow. To teach is to learn. How long anything endures depends on the initial influence. How better an influence if it is their idea in the first place? Their purpose, their motives, build the imperitive.
...To me, the rest of the combinates (Hexagrams), for the most part, are procedures and allowances, attitudes and states of mind, cautions and hazards, that define the most efficent way to get the purest 31 to the most enduring 32."

And I'll add -
"They teach you how to teach them, so you can teach them how to teach you."
31->32->31->32...

I'm sorry for any misunderstandings, but like I just said to S.L., there is nothing I can do. To add anything more would be folly on my part.

I came here looking for something specific and I think I found it.
Much love and respect to the both of you, and to all in whom I found such kindness and patience.
Happy Winter-

Fred

Fred, tolerence?

Thank you for stepping up and speaking it!

hi fred - so glad you found what you were looking for. i'm grateful that you decided to post your ideas, please carry on doing so!
i also find the yi chatty, friendly and kind. and it has a lot of patience, when i don't understand or keep on asking too much. sometimes it keeps saying the same thing and i still don't get it. doh!
much love to you
xx sl