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Concept of "Evil" in the Yi

modestlearner

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I am trying to understand the Chinese perspective on "Evil." I do not have access to any Yi books where I am located, and I did a search on the Internet and this forum and really found it cumbersome and also unsuccessful to gain a proper perspective on the meaning of "evil" in the Yi.

Can anyone help expand my awareness?

Modest Learner
 

pocossin

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I can't quote chapter and verse, but I understand evil as action that is untimely. It is too early or too late -- unseasonable.
 
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Hi Modestlearner. I have always felt "evil" to mean going against what will progress or prosper. Something that hinders or sets back. If someone does "evil" it is doing something that is not supposed to be done or against the time (like Pocossin was saying). And if it is done, it will prevert things, or cloud them, making it more difficult to reach a state of light and peace. This is just my little take on it. Take care.

...BTW.. I like your questions and topics!
 

Sparhawk

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I am trying to understand the Chinese perspective on "Evil." I do not have access to any Yi books where I am located, and I did a search on the Internet and this forum and really found it cumbersome and also unsuccessful to gain a proper perspective on the meaning of "evil" in the Yi.

Can anyone help expand my awareness?

Modest Learner

This might help. These are two chapters from "Living with the Dao: Conceptual Issues in Daoist Practice" by Livia Kohn.

I do suggest you buy the whole eBook, it is only $12.00.
 

Sparhawk

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BTW, Modest Learner enquired about the "concept of evil in China." I would add that I interpret that as "Ancient China," the time when the Yi was conceived and how it developed over the centuries. Our Judeo-Christian perspective of "evil" doesn't fit the Chinese paradigm thus it cannot be interpreted from that POV.
 
S

sooo

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If you take Wilhelm literally, good and evil are always at war, where superior men and inferior men must be decided upon moral grounds, and there's a devil behind every rock. Really, do a word search for "evil" on a Wilhelm doc. It's all over the place. I believe this is mix of Confucian and Christian influences, mostly. But I imagine the idea has been dramatized in earlier ages as well. And even primitive folk had egos, and superego experiences and beliefs, which likely involved demons and superstitions galore.

If you take a Daoist approach, good and evil create one another: "Say good and evil is born." The Tibetan Book of the Dead offers a look at one soul's confrontations with various forms of his own creations, both good and evil. It was the good ones you were warned to look out for; you find them attractive, and that attraction begins the dualism, yet again.

Theoretically and ideally, someone who is above reproach need not worry about evil, and our reproaches are self-sentencing and correcting.
 

boyler

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I am trying to understand the Chinese perspective on "Evil." I do not have access to any Yi books where I am located, and I did a search on the Internet and this forum and really found it cumbersome and also unsuccessful to gain a proper perspective on the meaning of "evil" in the Yi.

Can anyone help expand my awareness?

The paradigm of evil in early Chinese natural philosophy, and therefore in Yi too, is contained in everything that is contrary to nature and/or untimely, e.g. no fertile rain in spring, snow in summer, river flowing upstream, unpredicted eclipses, etc., and it is also projected to people too, so the greatest representatives of evil were emperors Jie of Xia, and Zhou Xin of Shang/Yin, who opposed the Heaven (nature), and oppressed their people.

Therefore, signs of evil (and, hence, misfortune) can be traced/detected in yin or yang lines which are not in their proper place, or which are not appropriate to the time/situation which any of sixliners represents.
 

bradford

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Dere's no debbil. No cosmic force of darkness.
There's mainly bu dao, off the path. Lots of error and grave error.
There are bad people (Fei Ren), with whom one wants no commerce,
and whose heads do get chopped off in the Yi, for making life unpleasant.
 

boyler

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"Later", Xun Zi said that human nature is evil,
Meng Zi (Mencius) said that human nature is good,
while Yang Xiong said that human nature is both, good and evil.
Of the three, only Yang Xiong was deeply influenced by/immersed/versed in the Changes.
 

modestlearner

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Wow! Thanks to all. I know that there will be more posts on this subject...I suddenly felt that feeling of a very large dissertation (smile)..."The Concept of Evil in the Book of Changes." I can almost feel the dusty shelves in the stacks of the world's University libraries.

Okay, so trying to condense, please add/delete/correct (and forgive) me:

Evil is:

** ill-timed action (pcossin).

** something that hinders or sets back progress (answeredquestions)

** unrelated to the Judeo-Christian concept of evil, but reflected in daoist philosophy. (sparhawk)

** in said daoist philosophy, evil is a function of duality; once you have good, you have its opposite, evil; (sooo)

** evil may be something that is actually good; good attracts, and that creates duality and that in turn creates evil (sooo)

** evil is not for those who are above reproach; others .... sooo you need to help me here.... others' evil are self-sentencing and correcting????

** evil is that which is against nature and its processes (boyler)

** evil, therefore, includes those people who go against nature; some are famous emperors who went against heaven to oppress their people (boyler)

** evil, therefore, can be traced back to yin and yang lines that are not in their proper place or not appropriate to the time/situation (boyler)

** evil is being "off the path." (I am assuming that this is a Daoist philosophical concept) (bradford)

** evil is lots of error and grave error (love that wording!) (bradford)

** evil may mean bad and refer to people who make life unpleasant or with whom one should not do commerce (bradford)

** evil may also refer to a human's nature (boyler)


This jumped out at me: THINGS NOT IN THEIR PROPER PLACE.... so I am now thinking of "evil" in Yi as that which is out of sync, out of order, out of natural order, out of harmony, and ??????

Also, doesn't the above fit in with Confuscianism? Have a very limited knowledge base there that comes from the world of Art History.

Modest Learner.
 
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modestlearner

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Thanks to all of you again. So many wonderful thoughts and ideas...

Looking forward to more!

Modest Learner.
 

modestlearner

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sooo

sooo true>>>

...dusty dissertation title revised: "Wilhelm's Evil Obsession with the Yi" :rofl::mischief::mischief:


Modest Learner.
 
S

sooo

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** evil is not for those who are above reproach; others .... sooo you need to help me here.... others' evil are self-sentencing and correcting????

Ones own character is to become self correcting. Otherwise, what's the point of learning all the lessons of natural law, if not to play a creative part? What's the point of the Yi as a teaching tool if I remain unteachable? Someone who remains open to be taught and corrected is above reproach, because they reproach themselves.
 

pocossin

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Sha Qi

Sha Qi – The 9 Evil Forces of Feng Shui to Avoid
http://www.trcb.com/home-improvemen...-9-evil-forces-of-feng-shui-to-avoid-3144.htm

Feng shui means the wind and the water. It has to do with the environment where you live. You will be impacted favorably or unfavorably by the surrounding. Sha Qi means the present of killing forces.

Look at the following evil forces which should be avoided at all costs:

1. The evil forces of the dragon: From you window or you door your can see broken mountains, quarrying activities, rock; sand and broken tiles every where. These will drain your wealth.

2. The evil forces of suppression: Your house is surrounded by buildings, flyovers, and there are big billboards on top of the building. You luck will be sluggish and you will find difficulty to break through the situation.

3. The evil forces of glaring light: From the window or your door, strong light reflected directly into your house causing stress and slow down your reactions.

4. The evil force of sickle: The shape of the road or the flyover is like a sickle which cuts into your house. It means bleeding, disputes and a drain of wealth.

5. The evil forces of white tiger: There is a building under construction or is being demolished on your right side. You will be subject to illnesses, bodily injuries and loss of wealth.

6. The evil forces of the staircase: The staircase leads right up to your door step. It means sickness and failure.

7. The evil forces of noise: The noise created, such as a building under construction, will make you ill at ease and succumb to illnesses.

8. The evil forces of odour: The air is stagnant or you can smell the foul air coming from the rubbish dump. You will be weak and do not feel well.

9. The evil forces of the flying dagger: From your door or the window you are directly facing the sharp roof or the sharp corner of another building. You will face illnesses, injuries and loss of wealth.

If you search for 'sha qi', the site "TUTORIAL - Basic feng shui series - Sha Qi Part 2" will attempt to infect your computer with a Trojan horse according to AVG. Definitely sha qi.
 

heylise

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Evil: untimely actions like searching for sha qi... You will get a Trojan horse
:rofl:
 

elias

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The continual references to "beneficial if correct" presupposes a malevolent use of the Tao -- i.e., sorcery. The Tao, incorrectly used, can be destructive.

Assuming Tao is simply a mindless force like electricity, gravity, nuclear radiation, etc. which can do both good and harm, it seems likely that some have attempted to use it for un-beneficial purposes. I'm not sure if that falls under your definition of "evil," but it does for me.
 

modestlearner

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Sooo,
And ALL,

To be serious: I noticed this about Wilhelm--frequent use of the word "evil" (I actually like this about his work) and wondered if this repetitive use of the word "evil" was referring to the TRANSLATION of a set of Chinese characters, and this is the reason I started this topic. I wanted to understand THAT aspect. Is this an issue of translation? I couldn't imagine given what little I know about Chinese characters that it would be as simple as "dog," for example. What I know about Chinese characters is that are a composite...

So, I got curious...what set of characters would make up the concept of evil? I couldn't get myself to believe that the Chinese would believe in the Judeo-Christian view of evil ( like sparhawk pointed out).

Modest Learner.
 

bradford

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Sooo,
And ALL,To be serious: I noticed this about Wilhelm--frequent use of the word "evil"
Modest Learner.

Just from memory, he translates the word 恶 "e4" as evil (e.g. 38.1), which is OK.
But I seem to remember him also translating 災 Zai as evil, which is better translated as disaster or calamity.
 

bradford

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Now as to the existence of evil in the world, at least among human beings, I've seen too many examples to deny its existence - Hitler, Dahmer, Manson, Bin Laden and my second wife.
 
S

sooo

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Of the over 50 times the word evil is used in the Wilhelm/Baynes, there's about a 2/1 ratio in the commentaries. Meaning, I'd guess the commentary influenced the text translation sometimes, rather than the text directing the commentary. Clearly, someone was hung up on evil. I find it hard to imagine that the minds that came up with the Yi were as concerned with evil.

ML, I'm very curious, why do you like the frequent use of the word 'evil' in Wilhelm?

Personally, I think evil exists, and that it would encourage whatever is not beneficial, and discourage whatever is beneficial. How evil exists, in what forms it takes, that can get into disputable areas. I'd define it as when radical religious/ideological groups try to annihilate one another for their conflicting views of God. But is that evil, or just really foolish behavior, as with a few naughty children? Or a few unwitting children who bought into into a cult, and died of Cool Aid poisoning? Funny thing about evil is, it often appears as something very good.

But, it's not as though Wilhelm hadn't tried to reconcile it.
If evil is branded it thinks of weapons, and if we do it the favor of fighting against it blow for blow, we lose in the end because thus we ourselves get entangled in hatred and passion. Therefore it's important to begin at home, to be on guard in our own persons against the faults we have branded. In this way, finding no opponent, the sharp edges of the weapons of evil becomes dulled. For the same reasons we shouldn't combat our own faults directly. As long as we wrestle with them, they continue victorious. Finally, the best way to fight evil is to make energetic progress in the good.

I'd rather think of it as: Finally, the best way to reckon with countervailing forces is to either exceed, fortify or retreat.
 

modestlearner

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Just from memory, he translates the word 恶 "e4" as evil (e.g. 38.1), which is OK.
But I seem to remember him also translating 災 Zai as evil, which is better translated as disaster or calamity.

I have not studied Chinese, but I understand that some of the logograms are comprised of characters with individual meanings that can be combined into a singular meaning that are called ideograms -- I guess. (I did some research to identify the correct terms.)

My question is does anyone know what are the individual pictograms like the ones Brad(ford) identify here for us are for the word "evil" ?Is it a ideogram where can learn its components or is it a pictogram (singular) character?

It would be fascinating to find out what "evil" is comprised of....;)

Modest Learner.
 

bradford

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Somehow I posted the wrong character above. Should have been 惡.
The lower part is called the radical. This one is Xin, the word for heart or mind.
Most of the words that have this have to do with feelings, emotions, states of mind.
The upper part is the word 亞 Ya4. It means inferior, ugly or secondary.
So the two together make "Inferior heart" or "Ugly Heart."
It's actually pretty rare that the parts of a Chinese word come together with this much clarity. You just asked it of the right word this time.
 

modestlearner

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Somehow I posted the wrong character above. Should have been 惡.
The lower part is called the radical. This one is Xin, the word for heart or mind.
Most of the words that have this have to do with feelings, emotions, states of mind.
The upper part is the word 亞 Ya4. It means inferior, ugly or secondary.
So the two together make "Inferior heart" or "Ugly Heart."
It's actually pretty rare that the parts of a Chinese word come together with this much clarity. You just asked it of the right word this time.

Thanks so much for this! This is at the heart--no pun intended--of my original question.
And brings up a lot of questions for me in relation to the hexagrams... will get back to that one.

** HEART/MIND So the word for "heart" or "mind" is the same? Wow...how does that actually function, I wonder? Is that a reflection of philosophy that they are one in the same...or should be...or that they both direct energy?

** WILHELM AND EVIL: And, I think it was sooo who was asking me why it is that I like that Wilhelm uses the word "evil" a lot...I was thinking about why I feel that...I think it was an attempt in a way to codfiy the translation and the lines....Being conditioned to judeo-christianity, I respond without full intention to the word "evil," though react to Wilhelm's repeated phrase, "There will be evil" as if it said "undesirable--or perhaps better is unwanted results/outcomes." Then again, so many times, I feel that "evil" in his phrases can mean "unwanted emotions" or emotional states.

** UGLY/INFERIOR: Here "ugly heart" and "inferior heart" are interesting...if you throw in the "mind," it throws even more usefulness into the meanings.

** UGLY HEART AND TAOISM: My recollection of my undergraduate class on Taoism is quite dim, but I am thinking that this is an unwanted Tao experience. Ugly heart/ugly mind sounds like confusion which I would see as a state between states for the Taoist practitioner (feels oxymoronic when I write this).

Going to think about this one further...

Modest Learner.
 

bradford

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** HEART/MIND So the word for "heart" or "mind" is the same? Wow...how does that actually function, I wonder? Is that a reflection of philosophy that they are one in the same...or should be...or that they both direct energy
Modest Learner.

While it's a cool thing that the same word means both heart and mind, the culture of the time didn't understand (or misunderstand) "mind" the way we do today. At the time this was not some detached, exalted consciousness that was somehow different from or separable from the body. It was engaged and interactive awareness that cared about its contents the way that no empty vessel or polished mirror could. It was more like the mind that the neuroscientist studies, at least a neuroscientist that acknowledges subjective experience as real. It's also more the sense that mind is used originally in Buddhism. In fact, its a good part of the way towards meaning "mind" in the sense of "Do you mind?" or "Mind your step."

Today of course they have words for the more western ideas, like spirit essence or consciousness, e.g. 精神 Jingshen and 意識 Yishi. But this was not part of the culture when the Zhouyi was written.
 
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rodaki

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Modest Learner I also got curious about the terms and had them looked up . . there are some free online Chinese dictionaries you can use like this and this . .

The first one is also directly linked thru the Chinese characters in the wengu.tartarie.com website which can make it much easier ..

and also Bradford has put together a matrix word-for-word translation of the book which you can find on his website . .
 

charly

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...
** WILHELM AND EVIL: And, I think it was sooo who was asking me why it is that I like that Wilhelm uses the word "evil" a lot...I was thinking about why I feel that...I think it was an attempt in a way to codfiy the translation and the lines....Being conditioned to judeo-christianity, I respond without full intention to the word "evil," though react to Wilhelm's repeated phrase, "There will be evil" as if it said "undesirable--or perhaps better is unwanted results/outcomes." Then again, so many times, I feel that "evil" in his phrases can mean "unwanted emotions" or emotional states.
...
Hi, Modestlearner:

Wilhelm / Baynes version uses EVIL mainly in the commentaries, in the core text [Zhou Yi] it appears only once in judgements [H.12] and once in lines [38.1]. Is Legge who uses repeatedly the phrase "there will be evil" (1)

H.12:
STANDSTILL. Evil people do not further
The perseverance of the superior man.
The great departs; the small approaches.​
W/B

The characters translated as EVIL PEOPLE are 匪人 fei3 ren2 wich means BANDITS / EVILDOERS / GANGSTERS. It is said to be used also for addressing someones not considered being PERSONS LIKE ONE, NOT LIKE ONE OF US, say, STRANGERS, LESS THAN HUMAN. Maybe extensive even to women. (2)

The first character fei3 depicts a basket or a cage wich brings associations with WOMEN, CAPTIVES or SLAVES. It means BANDITS / REBELS and also NOT /NO, not sure wich meaning comes first.

Maybe the original character was fei, depicting a pair of broken wings, associated with fallen or trapped birds, say PRISONERS or SLAVES, more frequently WOMEN, men were mostly killed [a] in battle, after being questioned or [c] sacrificed in the capitals.

Te second character ren2 depicts a walking man, meaning man, person, people and is applied not only to men but also to women, then PERSON / PEOPLE.


38.1:
Nine at the beginning means:
Remorse disappears.
If you lose your horse, do not run after it;
It will come back of its own accord.
When you see evil people,
Guard yourself against mistakes.
W/B

Here the secquence is 惡人 e4 ren2, the first character meaning meaning bad / evil / wicked / vice / wickedness / fierce / ferocious [Sears]. It depicts a CROSS over a HEART [MIND/FEELING]. the CROSS alone 亞 ya4 means second, near to, inferior and Asian. One might think MONGOLS / BARBARIANS / STRANGERS. Less than human?

Must be said that the message of the YI is less prejudicious than the ideology built at imperial times, say, after Ching and Han, but that's another story although maybe the MORE IMPORTANT!


All the best,


Charly.

_______________________
(1) The character translated EVIL by Legge is xiong1: fierce /terrible /ominous /
misfortune. It's said to depict a person fallen in a hole or a trap. Horrible!

(2) The ones that bear baskets, containers of agricultural fertility symbols like fruits or crops. Also the ones that are made slaves, association attested by characters like ...
奴 nu: slave (not only female)
婢 bi: slave girl / maid servant
... for meaning slave servant there is, as means of dissambiguation, 奴婢 nubi, a two-syllabe word.

Ch.
 
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charly

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Modest Learner I also got curious about the terms and had them looked up . . there are some free online Chinese dictionaries you can use like this and this . .

The first one is also directly linked thru the Chinese characters in the wengu.tartarie.com website which can make it much easier ..

and also Bradford has put together a matrix word-for-word translation of the book which you can find on his website . .
Hi, Dora:

We must remember that for seeing the old characters there is the generous work of Richard Sears, Chineseetymology (1), at:

http://www.chineseetymology.org

Only consults for single chinese characters are allowed. Copy a character from, say, Yellowbridge, which has the chinese text sincronised with Legge, and paste it in Chineseetymology. It brings the simplified, traditional, seal, bronze and bone known equivalents for the pasted character.

Yours,

Charly
____________________-
(1)
What you see here is the result of the past 20 years of my efforts to make Chinese character etymology information available online. Please donate so I can keep this information on line and updated. All information is free and without advertisements.
R.Sears
Ch.
 

modestlearner

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Modest Learner I also got curious about the terms and had them looked up . . there are some free online Chinese dictionaries you can use like this and this . .

The first one is also directly linked thru the Chinese characters in the wengu.tartarie.com website which can make it much easier ..

and also Bradford has put together a matrix word-for-word translation of the book which you can find on his website . .

Thanks so much!

Modest Learner.
 

modestlearner

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Charly, (Bradford and others)

Lot to take in and mull over in your post... very valuable what you and Bradford have posted. I was wondering about 36.6...

HEXAGRAM 36.6

Six at the top means:
Not light but darkness.
First he climbed up to heaven, then
plunged into the depths of the earth.


This goes to the earlier discussion that evil exists because good does.

Wilhelm in the text says of this line:

Here the climax of the darkening is reached. The dark power at first held so high a place that it could wound all who were on the side of good and of the light. But in the end it perishes of its own darkness, for evil must itself fall at the very moment when it has wholly overcome the good, and thus consumed the energy to which it owed its duration.


What do you think? I am assuming that the word "evil" is not here in the original text, but here it does seems Wilhelm is going along with the idea presented earlier that "evil" exists only because good does. This also seems to suggest that Wilhelm was defining the concept of "evil."

AND THIS I FOUND ON THE INTERNET...

There are numerous Chinese philosophic branches that offer their own interpretations to understanding good and evil. An appropriate starting point in analyzing Chinese ethical and philosophical systems view on evil would be Confucianism. Although Confucianism was adopted as the official state philosophy and religion for centuries in China, unlike other state religions such as Christianity and Islam, Confucianism never spoke of any metaphysical totalitarianism that concretized ‘good’ and ‘evil.’ Confucianism did not deal with supposed evil spirits that seduced men to do bad things, but rather stressed the importance of the ‘learned’ experience. However, Confucius philosophy does promote ‘virtue’ in many of its branches and texts. If virtue and good exist in Confucius philosophy, then it is logical that some form of malevolence does too. As a foundation for the virtuous life, Confucius promoted virtues such as sincerity, the insatiable pursuit of knowledge, self-restraint, and benevolence in the form of charitable behavior. Confucius philosophy on evil was that evil was the result of the failure to cultivate the soul and these virtues. In Confucius philosophy, there are shameful and horrifying behaviors, but inherently everything is amoral. Evil actions are bred from ignorance, bad surroundings, and reckless role models. Though he never spoke of morality, losing control of your spirit was as close a person may reach to being evil.


Modest Learner.
 
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modestlearner

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Chinese Philosophy of Evil
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