:bows:

I have no clue what this thread originally said lol but Hillary stay safe down there!
I have seen footage on the news and its madness!

I'm lucky enough to live out in the country, where it's all quiet. Now is not a fun time to live in central London. I really feel for the shop-keepers - I know what a struggle it is for them at the best of times.

i do live in central london that is why i asked - i think
the response was claer and hellpful but i removed the post
as it felt too subjective and i did not want people to feel
uncomfortable

Hope x

hilary said:

I'm lucky enough to live out in the country, where it's all quiet. Now is not a fun time to live in central London. I really feel for the shop-keepers - I know what a struggle it is for them at the best of times.

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Yes I know. I have a friend who lives in the UK and he is always telling me how expensive it is to live and work there.
I compare it to our cost of living down here in Canada and wow!

They need to lock up all these hoodlums in the slammer for destroying the hard working UK folks stores and all!!

hilary said:

I'm lucky enough to live out in the country, where it's all quiet. Now is not a fun time to live in central London. I really feel for the shop-keepers - I know what a struggle it is for them at the best of times.

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oh you mean like Tescos do you

Sunfit said:

Yes I know. I have a friend who lives in the UK and he is always telling me how expensive it is to live and work there.
I compare it to our cost of living down here in Canada and wow!

They need to lock up all these hoodlums in the slammer for destroying the hard working UK folks stores and all!!

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Who is 'they' I live in the UK and hardly think filling up over crowded prisons that cost tax payers even more money is an intelligent suggestion of how to deal with things

Riots have reasons...they always do

trojan said:

Who is 'they' I live in the UK and hardly think filling up over crowded prisons that cost tax payers even more money is an intelligent suggestion of how to deal with things

Riots have reasons...they always do

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Still doesn't make it right targeting INNOCENT business owners stores and all and vandalizing them!

Its wrong.

Have a great day Trojan.

It would be fairer, imo, to first take a good look to what might actually be the cause of all this, instead of falling towards the sensational . . there's always a valid reason for people rising towards radical change . .

If politics and its multi-faceted speakers had made it a point to see to the truth and the reality of the people, there is a chance (I think) much of this could have been avoided, but seems that in current politics the 'social contract' has been reduced to a condition of permanent debt -sort of how the commercial world works nowadays . .


read here: http://pennyred.blogspot.com/ for example, for a different view . .


just saying, there are many, radically different, ways to understand the really sweeping changes that are needed in the underlying structures . . same thing had happened to Greece some time ago. I just hope this won't be merely used to feed another round of evening news and great rhetoric but to actually start mending what isn't working within . .

And now my city is burning, and it will continue to burn until we stop the blanket condemnations and blind conjecture and try to understand just what has brought viral civil unrest to Britain. Let me give you a hint: it ain’t Twitter.

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From that article, great link, best article I've read on the riots so far. Rodaki how do you keep yourself so on the pulse?

I remember once particpating in a very watered down version of a protest, there was a big turn out but we all walked awkwardly through the city and they played 'times are a changing' over PA's, and I remember thinking, well they cant be changing much can they if here we all are with the same old tune playing. But that really doesnt have anything to do with this, I'm having trouble this mercury retrograde. (Someone told me mars was going to be the same size as the moon so I stood out in the cold all night waiting for it to happen, and it turned out to be a hoax!)

i agree with Trojan - its raging against the machine
and the multi nationals killing niche and small biz
initiative - tesco buying all the rock bottom priced
property (land)

people are not stupid - one has to pay to breathe and
then it gets given to casino banks which they promptly
use for their bonuses and the repossessions become
fiercer

plus why have kids when you wake up one day and say
to them - here is your choice you can work for tesco,
or tesco or walmart not

well don't get me wrong I'm not saying I'm pro riot ,afterall people get hurt, and I'm not keen on smaller shops suffering. But If I'm honest I don't give a damn about Tesco or Walmart who put everyone else out of business anyway, rip off both farmers and the environment and about everything else

I don't think riots happen for no reason, they happen when theres a crisis, a desperation.

if kids who have nothing, ie not a university education their parents can't afford, no chance of a job, no way of using their energy get fed images of luxury goods being the be all and end all of existence and they know they will never have them then er it seems pretty natural to me someone might want to smash the whole sick edifice down. Its not a good way to express frustration of course...but there is undoubtedly frustration and if you can't articulate it you might think 'well f**** it, I'm gonna take it anyway".

all these malls are full of over priced rubbish goods mostly made by exploiting the third world children...I ain't losing any sleep that they lose a few £1000 watches anyway.


Thats why the cry of 'lock em up' is so ridiculous. The crime never did start at that level. Theres still a class system here and its a very unequal society and the gap is getting bigger. When the gap is too big riots happen


Why not lock up all the retailers that expoit third world kids to make their massive and unecessary profits.

hopex said:

i agree with Trojan - its raging against the machine
and the multi nationals killing niche and small biz
initiative - tesco buying all the rock bottom priced
property (land)

people are not stupid - one has to pay to breathe and
then it gets given to casino banks which they promptly
use for their bonuses and the repossessions become
fiercer

plus why have kids when you wake up one day and say
to them - here is your choice you can work for tesco,
or tesco or walmart:rofl: not

Click to expand...

absolutely !

i was robbed in tesco carpark - tesco said that had
no responsiblity to customers in their half mile square
car park - no cctv for the police. so they want your
money but dont care for your safe departure from
their premises.

they are registered in the british virgin isles so they
dont even pay into the tax system of the uk......??
Er......what...? they can take all the lead and copper
off all the tesco supermarket roofs for all i care -

It is all a spiritual lack. A spiritually lacking system, government, education. It helps to know why you are alive, number one. It helps if the education offered supports that purpose and the government protects that purpose. But without purpose in being alive, people are lost. They may do drugs, they may need prescribed drugs, they may bump along for years behaving themselves but never feeling their worth, they may hate and kill each other, they may live and die unnoticed. But life will never have the brilliance it can have if you know why you are here and get even the slightest support for the idea that life is amazing and worth doing.

hopex said:

Click to expand...

given that the thread has had quite a few responses maybe it would be an idea to resurrect the reading you presented us with...and then withdrew ?

what was your original question and what answer did you get ? I thought it was 38 ? I don't think we will be more uncomfortable than we already are, afterall its a full moon and I cast 28.2.4.6>53 today, I'm about to go over the edge anyway

I feel compelled to post these descriptions of a few of the rioters. Not people in need, not people who are low down in the food chain. Just people without sufficient understanding/appreciation of the value of life. Just read these descriptions of a few people who were picked up:


The teenager, who is the daughter of millionaire parents, is currently studying English and Italian at Exeter University.

Aspiring social worker Natasha Reid, 24, handed herself in to police after stealing a TV from a ransacked Comet store, and confessing to being racked with guilt afterwards.

And 18-year-old Chelsea Ives, an aspiring sportswoman who was chosen as an Olympic ambassador for London 2012, was also detained by police after her mother saw her on TV and reported her.

This isn't about any revolution or social movement -- it's about criminal shopping for fun.

There have been theories about "gang" culture and theories about ethnic issues. It's about "something for nothing" and people who would also appear to have EVERYTHING already and don't mind losing it -- and their good reputations. How does one account for such a mentality except to say that these people feel no vital purpose to their lives -- even what would normally be perceived as "productive" lives.

yes but I have to ask where you read these descriptions, I mean if it was in The Express or any of those reactionary rags they make it all up and I'd say this was propaganda

Of course it isn't about any sort of conscious social movement, I never said it was, but its born of pure unthought out frustration with greed and anger thrown in too of course but I think the above examples are pretty absurd.


Noone has claimed it was a social movement

I feel for poor Natasha I mean I don't see why she should feel guilty as she didn't smash the window did she, it was there and she took it

One time all the lights went out in our local Asda and people just walked out with the stuff they had. Big deal, I'd do that too. Geezus I'm sure Comet can handle it

The 18 year old was only seen by her mother....big deal

This is sensationalist trash. If the daughter of a millionaire was picked up so what, does a one off describe the whole event, maybe she was out for the night anyway and got caught up in it

I do so hate this trashy kind of journalism. No crowd is ever going to be made up of only type of person. Odd anecdotal eveidence here and there means nothing

These examples have been quoted in all the mainstream newspapers and, to my way of thinking, are rather shocking. Why would THESE people riot? And that's where I feel that the point of a spiritual lack can be the only answer -- especially as these aren't by any means isolated examples. The BBC is publishing a gallery of the people arrested and charged just to demonstrate what a diverse group is involved.

In the Guardian there was a major article profiling the reasons for the riots and supposing that funding cuts had something to do with the problems. I've never seen such a unified response as when 3,000 readers endorsed what this person said in response:


If a young man is resentful about being excluded from society, why would he DROP OUT of school?

Surely, he would STAY IN school.

Why would he deal drugs and smash shops? How is that going to help him get included?

Too many apologists on the left think that young men are too stupid to make rational calculations, that they are blindly led by circumstance.

There is education and work for all that want it in London.

The rioting may have no purpose; it may be just a game. I mean, people who can afford to consult their Blackberry to organise riots are better off than most. And they aren't stealing food -- but flat screen televisions. The people I saw rioting on the television were better dressed than I can afford to be, that's for certain. But if it has a point, the only common denominator I can see amongst these people is utter lack of belief in being alive and even trying.

the answer was 31 changing to 17

i can confirm that there are a lot of old
shoes strewn round clapham and that many
youngsters are sporting one new shoe on their
left foot - as they were only able to get the
ones on display....

that is priceless

I shouldn't laugh

but it is funny

and there is a hoodied man sporting
one jimmy choo and pouting

Last night we had a family bithday celebration at a chippie and then took the wee ones to the park along the river to play on the various pieces of equipment. We were joined by several other very young children who each came without a parent and were anxious for us to admire their running, swinging and jumping. So we added them in and made them a part of it. But no parents, not ever, in over an hour. They were quite well-dressed, each with a mobile phone, but utterly starved for human contact and attention. I suppose if they had been abducted or fallen into the river they were suppose to call home. These are kids who go through life buddied up with their "stuff" without much meaning associated with the kind of caring a human being should have. They aren't necessarily abused, they are simply ignored and unsocialised. No wonder we have riots. I came home to read this, which is a chilling description of where it ends when the children just get older without real love, limits or concern made clear by the people who gave them life:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8699993/UK-riots-A-festival-of-broken-glass.html

yes - if only they could enjoy their children

children are like an endlessly fascinating book - lets hope.....

Actually, if you would like something a little more nuanced than the right-wing hang 'em and flog em viewpoint try this from the Telegraph's political editor:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/p...r-society-is-as-bad-at-the-top-as-the-bottom/

(this link has gone viral and for non-uk folks the fact it was written by the Political Editor of a usually conservative paper gives it even more traction)

As some of you know I am a journalist and as it happens I also live in Tottenham (when in the UK). I don't like knee jerk responses they are rarely useful.......

There were a million reasons why people participated in this stuff the last few nights so a one size fits all "they" doesn't actually work for anything. The only universal statement you can make about it all is it was a massive FCK U to 'Authority' because 'Authority' has lost the plot................

To make catch-all comments about their 'parents' is not useful. How do you know? Are you assuming that all the kids in Tottenham who went crazy come from 'bad homes' ? How about people being so pressured to survive that both parents have to work in dreadful jobs for little money? How about the fact that many of the kids who were otherwise fairly naive and just in it for the thrill actually lied to their parents about where they were? Notice from the pictures how many did NOT cover their faces - crap criminals - notice how varied the ethnicity outside of Tottenham.

Tottenham knew this was going to happen sooner or later - youth workers, kids, all kinds of people have been warning for ages. This barrio has a history of social exclusion, bad treatment from the police, stereo-typing by people who do not live here. (Yet I feel safe on the streets here even in the middle of the night) You take away hope from the youth - which is what this putrid neo-liberal Free Market obsession is doing all over the world, well they have nothing to lose no?

Meanwhile, a whole bunch of knee-jerk responses will potentially lead to the erosion of yet more of the civil liberties that were originally put in place precisely to protect us from Bad Government.

There is so much more to this story believe me, including competition for the top job of Head of the Met (the London Police Force). The squad that killed Mark Duggan did not even get permission to come to Tottenham and arrest him. They lied about what happened and were then exposed for it. They have no Boss as the last two were sacked for corruption in the on-going Murdoch corruptions. The woman who is now in charge of "anti-terrorism" in the UK is Cressida Dick - she is the one whose incompetence was responsible for Jean-Charles Menezes getting 7 close range bullets in the head on the subway and he was INNOCENT. She was 'vindicated' and later promoted. So you see, we are a little cynical in Tottenham.

All kinds of people jumped in for their own ends including career criminals, hard right racist provocateurs, and stupid kids. It is not simple but so-called riots never are. What is clear to me (and I have quite a long experience of riots both in the UK and India and other countries) is that no-one has learned much from the last time.

The shops that were looted were nearly all the most down-market. If you go to another area, Clapham - all the cheap shops were trashed and there in the middle still bright shiny and intact is Waterstones - a book shop!

There was once a fabulous photography series taken on the 73 bus. It showed it full at 0500 am with people sleeping and looking exhausted as they went to do the jobs that no-one sees. The night security guards, the cleaners, the care assistants etc.,. This is the Tottenham route into the centre of London - these folks work in all the jobs no-one else wants to do: cleaners, night security guards,care assistants etc. Yet even in Tottenham the rents are sky high.

Government 'cuts' have axed all the youth services meanwhile, and we have an almost 2 party political system that has little variation in its market obsessions. Never mind the lies we were fed about wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The Ching is an amazing and useful thing and asking the Ching about the riots is a perfectly valid thing to do but please don't let your 'spiritual' views blind you to the political as you only have the luxury of an alternative viewpoint because some of our ancestors fought hard for civil liberties - don't let them disappear because you are not paying attention. Even in Tibet the Buddhists are political!

"A riot is the language of the unheard" Martin Luther King

OK I'll shut up now and go back to being invisible

arabella said:

If a young man is resentful about being excluded from society, why would he DROP OUT of school?

Surely, he would STAY IN school.

Why would he deal drugs and smash shops? How is that going to help him get included?

Too many apologists on the left think that young men are too stupid to make rational calculations, that they are blindly led by circumstance.

There is education and work for all that want it in London.

The rioting may have no purpose; it may be just a game. I mean, people who can afford to consult their Blackberry to organise riots are better off than most. And they aren't stealing food -- but flat screen televisions. The people I saw rioting on the television were better dressed than I can afford to be, that's for certain. But if it has a point, the only common denominator I can see amongst these people is utter lack of belief in being alive and even trying.

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There is NOT education and work for all who want it and it was only by dealing dope that I escaped and got to University as an adult. To ths day I give thanks that I had the nous to do that and I did it with a clear conscience. And Blackberries are free if you have a phone contract by the way.

As for the BBC's coverage check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biJgILxGK0o (The BBC have had to apologise for this)

There is a whole variety of reasons why people don't stay in school and many schools are just plain awful. In London the pressure on young people is dreadful - just at a time in life when social acceptance by their peers is the most important thing. On top of that what have most of them got to look forward to? The problem is the experience of life at the bottom of the pile.

I don't know where you saw all these well-dressed people except Ms Posh from Orpington who was cruising for a bit of 'rough' as we say in the UK. I was on the streets filming and taking pictures and I didn't see anything fancy. But perhaps the rampant consumer culture fed into this no? Neatly motivated by 24 hour rolling news which kindly offered directions....

This country demonises kids, valourises the most crass forms of acquisition, loathes the elderly except where it suits political sound bites and constructs a working life that these days makes it almost impossible to have a family life beyond your own front door. Meanwhile, that magic word “hope” is all gone. People have nothing to look forward to or aspire towards except the most basic day to day getting and having.................

I graduated from a very famous and posh university and was greeted with the words: "congratulations my dear we have never had anyone like you get this far".

Now ching 31.1.3>17 - what an interesting response but what exactly was the question? (I kept looking through the thread and couldn't find it)

Following the influence and it brings shame............

I don't see the difference, myself, between, "The window's already broken, so I might as well take this TV" and "I'm not actually breaking any rules, so I might as well spend this taxpayers' money to have my moat cleaned." Except that #2 has had the benefit of a very expensive education, and might be expected to have the imagination/ insight to see through their own self-justification.

Ah... I see that Telegraph article draws the same comparison. Good stuff - thanks for the link.

trojan said:

Thats why the cry of 'lock em up' is so ridiculous.

Why not lock up all the retailers that expoit third world kids to make their massive and unecessary profits.

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Stop taking my "one" sentence that I posted at leisure, quickly "on the fly" and judge me on that "one" little statement I made in haste as you have done so often here for years to so many others with your sharp tongue.

You know not what I think or feel about what is going on in the UK and that there have been problems for many years that are "driving" people to riot, I know that.

I merely made a knee jerk comment to Hillary that I hope she is safe down there and that I hate to see the "small independent" business owners get their stores thrashed thats all.

I have discussed the sitution in the UK with a friend of mine in the UK several times but I won't get into it on forums for this very reason here...
Someone posts ONE sentence and it gets blown all out of proportion and picked at and brought up again and again...
One little statement made on the fly...

Happy Sunday.

Practice gratitude every day

Oh, and this is the kind of independent shop owner I had in mind:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-14482697

The rioters/ thieves were in it 'to get free stuff'... no different from the MPs. Failure of imagination, failure of empathy, in both cases. IMO, which isn't worth a lot.