I normally use the Wilhelm text for my readings but refer also to Whincup for alternative perspectives. Sometimes Whincup translates some Chinese characters differently but he explains his positions in such cases pretty well.

But he also suggests, enigmatically, that the lines of text relating to some hexagram Lines were wrongly placed in successive transmissions. So, whereas Wilhelm says 34.1 and 34.2 read:

Nine at the beginning means:
Power in the toes.
Continuing brings misfortune.
This is certainly true.

Nine in the second place means:
Perseverance brings good fortune.

Whincup suggests that 'This is certainly true.' actually belongs to 34.2 and translates as 'He is faithful', followed by 'Keeping on brings good fortune'.

He suggests 40.1 has likewise lost its first line of text, 'If there is still something where one has to go, hastening brings good fortune' to the Judgement.

These examples seem to make some sense, though he only mentions 2 examples. I would like to suggest that the closing text to Line 7.2, 'The king bestows a triple decoration', is also misplaced. Maybe it should start 7.3? Any thoughts anyone?

tomorton said:

I would like to suggest that the closing text to Line 7.2, 'The king bestows a triple decoration', is also misplaced. Maybe it should start 7.3? Any thoughts anyone?

Click to expand...

Line 3 is typically the line of misfortune. Why would this favorable bestowal belong there? Whincup, p121, says

The earliest quotations from the Changes do not include the words "first line/9," "line five/6," etc., that divide the text into lines. It appears that when they were put in, some of them may have been put in the wrong places.

Click to expand...

I don't see how one can know which text is in the wrong place unless one knows what ought to be in that place.

Rutt and especially Gottshalk do this a lot as well. They all belong to a school of academics that began in China in the 1930's. Together they are weaving an absolutely amazing new suit of clothes for the Emperor, and only fools and those not fit for their posts can't see it.

Hello pocossin - Of course, we have to realise that, after 3,500 years, there can be no such thing as a definitive I Ching text. It's inconceivable that such a complex construction as this 'book' has not suffered from mistranslations, inaccurate reproduction and possibly even deliberate misinterpretations. So any kind of quest for THE authentic text is in a sense hopeless. But in places where the IC seems to disregard its own internal structure, we can be suspicious and cautious.

As for the usual character of Line 3, yes, generally unfavourable, but all the more so when military misfortune follows the emphatic (hasty?) advancement of a general. I discount association between 'triple decoration' and the third line, I dont see any visible precedent for such a link elsewhere in the book.

Hello bradford - Well, I don't know the authors or scholars you mean, but a healthy detached scepticism seems to me a good position for an academic. I'm conscious of the danger of re-fabricating the IC into a new form to suit our times or our prejudices, but, as per my response to pocossin, the IC we see simply cannot be the IC, verbatim and pristine, that set out on the road to our century. Where the IC seems to defy its own internal rules on its own structure, I feel we're entitled to be cautious.

Hello Tomorton (???)

The two most useful presentations of the thoughts of this school are below, and regardless of the problems I may have with them, they are absolutely indispensable in any serious study of the Yi:

Kunst, Richard Alan. The Original Yijing: A Text, Phonetic Transcription, Translation and Indexes, with Sample Glosses. Doctoral dissertation in Oriental Languages: University of California at Berkeley, 1985. 690 pp.

Shaughnessy, Edward Louis. The Composition of the Zhouyi. Doctoral dissertation in Chinese Studies: Stanford University, 1983. 382pp.

However, it is in fact this school more than others that is convinced that it is gradually building a definitive version of the original Zhouyi. In the Introduction to Volume One of my own book, pages 16-42 (free at the link below my signature) I do a reasoned analysis of the logical problems and fallacies that underpin this school of thought and its methodology, called Modernist and Context Criticism.

Thanks bradford - they are aiming for a definitive version of the original? Sounds like a quest for the Holy Grail. Hard to think it's possible or worth the efforts.

However, I'd like to think it's worth trying for the most applicable version of the IC we can manage, without glaring internal inconsistencies or obvious mistranslations.

d

tomorton said:

glaring internal inconsistencies

Click to expand...

Would you please point out a few of these 'glaring internal inconsistencies'. I confess I haven't noticed them.

tomorton said:

I discount association between 'triple decoration' and the third line, I dont see any visible precedent for such a link elsewhere in the book.

Click to expand...

I did not make such an association and regret you thought I did.

pocossin said:

I did not make such an association and regret you thought I did.

Click to expand...

I didn't think you had pocossin, but it might have been thought that I had.