61.2

anemos · Nov 8, 2011

is there another way to interpreted the symbolism in 61.2 ?

why the authors give a parent/offspring relationship?
What wine symbolize here ?
Does the crane just shares or she pass something (wine?) to the next generation ?
was the crane considered as a symbol of longevity the days the book was written ?
How the Chinese character for crane can be read ?
It looks like two people ( if this is the write one )

Does anyone has come cross to any material may answer those questions or what Wilhelm say is the only possible explanation ?

sooo · Nov 8, 2011

I've said too much already concerning this, and they are only my own interpretations and strong beliefs, and I apologize if I've been too stubborn or one sided about it. So I'll sit this one out and hopefully learn from others.

bradford · Nov 8, 2011

anemos said:
why the authors give a parent/offspring relationship?

This is not absolute truth. It is relative truth, a local truth, shared between kindred spirits.

anemos · Nov 8, 2011

I could relate so much to your thoughts Bruce that i could only nod and say "yeah!"

Reading something had to do with biology, the image of 61.2 line popped into mind. Posting those questions there, which are very off topic and no h61 related, would be inconsiderate and would disturb the flow of the discussion. My apologies for not making clear the purpose of those questions.

anemos · Nov 8, 2011

bradford said:
This is not absolute truth. It is relative truth, a local truth, shared between kindred spirits.

hence the blood relationship ?

Does this image exist in other writings, culture myths, or papers no-Yi related ? Or are there other interpretations outside the Yi context ?

peterg · Nov 8, 2011

The details of the symbolism aside,
a recent 61 - 42 : at first I thought it was some kind of 'priming' but then realised it was a surprise temporary but significant financial improvement, as 42 often is.

anemos · Nov 8, 2011

Thank you Peter.

I'm just looking for some info to find answers to the other questions too.

chingching · Nov 8, 2011

I would like to know what a crane symbolises but moreover what the chinese sense of truth is, meaning is it different to western idea of truth, aristotle's truth “To say of what is that it is not, or of what is not that it is, is false, while to say of what is that it is, and of what is not that it is not, is true”, or as I learned it in school differentiated into relative and higher truth, you know there is truth and THE TRUTH. (see other truth.)
Lise says

Fu is not "the truth" because that is an empty concept which does not exist anywhere.Only in small parts, one sentence, one idea, and even there only if there is agreement about it. But a person can have 'his' truth, and pass that on to others, inspiring them with it.

Or truth as a light bulb lighting up, as insight, bradford says that's local in 61.2 I see this in my two experiences with this line. They were along the lines of , ahhh (bright eyes with elevated spirit) they get it too. Also these times literally involved drinking, tea and coffee though. Both people were related to me, one was my sister, and the other was a brother-from-another-mother, you know those people who aren't related but feel like they are.

I dunno what originally is meant by the drinking but it is the most common thing I share with others, lets go fro a coffee, a beer etc.

pocossin · Nov 9, 2011

anemos said:
What wine symbolize here ?

The word for wine doesn't occur in the text, but the goblet (Wilhelm) is the jue -- an ancient wine pitcher with three legs and a loop handle (Chinese Etymology).

http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?submitButton1=Etymology&characterInput=爵

The arrow shaped projection at the top of the oracle characters represents zhu buttons.

http://arts.cultural-china.com/en/30Arts2053.html
picture of a jue with zhu buttons

I believe that here the jue symbolizes communion between the living and the dead. The jue is graphically implicit in hexagram 17 where it symbolizes communion between leader and cadre.

pocossin · Nov 9, 2011

chingching said:
I would like to know what a crane symbolises. . .

"The figure of a crane, with outspread wings and uplifted foot, is sometimes placed on the centre of a coffin in a funeral procession, being supplied to convey the soul of the departed to the "Western Heaven" riding on its back" (Outlines of Chinese Symbolism and Art Motives by C.A.S. Williams).

tuckchang · Nov 9, 2011

for reference

The crane in China is regarded as a rare and spiritual animal. Following is some idioms for your understanding of what the crane is meant to Chinese: its head and shoulders are above others while it stands among chickens (鶴立雞群); it screams in the middle of marshes (鶴鳴九皋, signifying it lives apart from humans) and through the sky (鶴唳長空, signifying a very high tune and far reach); therefore people well known for their virtue and talent are usually honored as the screaming crane (鶴鳴之士).

A crying crane in the shade signifies that it can’t be seen, but its young can recognize and responds to its cry. The hexagram name, 中Zhong 孚Fu , is two important virtues of I Ching. 61.2 possesses them, which is unknown to the public as it is in the shade and its virtue is obscured. However those who are of one kind (i.e. those who also possesses the same virtue, like clan’s DNA) can recognize it and will respond to its call. 61.2 values its virtue very much like a goblet of good wine and would like to share it with those who also possess and value it.

Fu (孚), a son 子 under the claw 爪, signifies to hatch; the incubation must proceed timely in accordance with the natural scheme; to follow strictly and not to delay constitute a behavior of 誠cheng (sincerity) 信xin (trustiness). 中Zhong of 中Zhong孚Fu signifies the middle, which is neither excessive nor insufficient, and neither radical nor conservative.

Regards
Tuck
www.iching123.com

peterg · Nov 9, 2011

Toast

The line feels like a toast.
During the conclave deliberations prior to the election of JP2 to the Papacy, one of the Cardinals across the room, raised his wine-glass to the Polish Cardinal. Several of the other Cardinals followed suit. He was none too pleased about this, but later when the call came, he acquiesced.
pg

anemos · Nov 9, 2011

tuckchang said:
A crying crane in the shade signifies that it can’t be seen, but its young can recognize and responds to its cry. The hexagram name, 中Zhong 孚Fu , is two important virtues of I Ching. 61.2 possesses them, which is unknown to the public as it is in the shade and its virtue is obscured. However those who are of one kind (i.e. those who also possesses the same virtue, like clan’s DNA) can recognize it and will respond to its call. 61.2 values its virtue very much like a goblet of good wine and would like to share it with those who also possess and value it.

Regards
Tuck
www.iching123.com

Thank you so much !! This is what I was looking for. There is an universality implied in this line. I see fragments of evolution theories , and I can see another kind of sharing that never have read in this forum before.

Maybe the blood relationships isn't just a poetic metaphor but it implies something more literal. This is why I asked if the crane just shares or pass on something to the next generation.

along with Tom's comment,

I believe that here the jue symbolizes communion between the living and the dead. The jue is graphically implicit in hexagram 17 where it symbolizes communion between leader and cadre.

I see this on going process.

maybe, this is what Wilhelm meant to imply by saying : "Far-reaching speculations can be linked with these ideas".

Sorry, for the brief reply, just have a deadline to catch , but will return in that tread.

Meanwhile Tuck, could you post a similar to Fu character explanation , for the Chinese character "crane" ?

Thanks again Tuck :bows:

anemos · Nov 9, 2011

peterg said:
The line feels like a toast.
During the conclave deliberations prior to the election of JP2 to the Papacy, one of the Cardinals across the room, raised his wine-glass to the Polish Cardinal. Several of the other Cardinals followed suit. He was none too pleased about this, but later when the call came, he acquiesced.
pg

when we drink with friends , we say a toast "to your health" something like to your fitness, well being. something that the crane does. Take care of its young's , as Tuck's post mentions

it has a connection with 61.2's fan yao 42.2 too

anemos · Nov 10, 2011

tuckchang said:
A crying crane in the shade signifies that it can’t be seen, but its young can recognize and responds to its cry.

Regards
Tuck
www.iching123.com

Its interesting the 'effortless" , natural way the crane and its young are 'met'. Read your 61.2 t your website too. You say the shade obscures and makes sense to me as those Invisible traits.

Maybe i'm connecting the wrong dots , but 61.2 leads to 42 and fits with the "moderation" concept you talk about in 61.2

Moreover, 42 reads

Wind and thunder: the image of INCREASE.
Thus the superior man:
If he sees good, he imitates it;
If he has faults, he rids himself of them.
Wilhelm

which it fits with the ideas of EP's that those genes enable their carriers to survive and reproduce are will survive and passed on next generations , while the other genes , those less 'useful' have less probabilities to survive and appear in next generations.

Thanks for your help Tuck
:bows:

tuckchang · Nov 10, 2011

anemos said:
Could you post a similar to Fu character explanation , for the Chinese character "crane" ?

Hi Anemos,

For your reference:

鶴huo is constituted by two characters: 隺huo and 鳥niao.
鳥niao is a bird, while 隺huo signifies (a short tailed bird隹) flying high (through the boundary冂).
To a Chinese, the message which is revealed from 鶴 is 1) a bird 鳥 2) which can fly high, and 3) it is pronounced in 隺huo.

Regards
Tuck

anemos · Nov 10, 2011

tuckchang said:
Hi Anemos,

For your reference:

鶴huo is constituted by two characters: 隺huo and 鳥niao.
鳥niao is a bird, while 隺huo signifies (a short tailed bird隹) flying high (through the boundary冂).
To a Chinese, the message which is revealed from 鶴 is 1) a bird 鳥 2) which can fly high, and 3) it is pronounced in 隺huo.

Regards
Tuck

awesome ! thank you

maria

tuckchang · Nov 11, 2011

anemos said:
Maybe i'm connecting the wrong dots , but 61.2 leads to 42 and fits with the "moderation" concept you talk about in 61.2

Hi Maria,

I thank you very much for the enlightenment; it helps a lot.
Indeed 61.1 halts its action and contemplates what can build up its credit. 61.2 cries for recognition and 61.1 responds, as 61.1 shows in its cry what is the difference of their virtue, i.e. moderation, which is what 61.1 needs. They benefit each other in building credit.

Regards
Tuck :bows:

bradford · Nov 11, 2011

This is from Eberhard's Dictionary of Chinese Symbols.

A picture showing a crane, a phoenix, a mandarin duck, a heron and a wagtail is a representation of the five relationships between people. In this setting, the crane symbolises the father–son relationship: when it sings, its young answer it.

The rest of the entries are too anachronistic to be useful, other than a mention of longevity (shared by all large birds)

anemos · Nov 11, 2011

thank you Brad. Very useful. !

Makes me think though if the source of this info is from Yi or Yi authors brought that believe in the texts.

bradford · Nov 12, 2011

anemos said:
thank you Brad. Very useful. !

Makes me think though if the source of this info is from Yi or Yi authors brought that believe in the texts.

Eberhard doesn't draw much on the Yi.
The 2nd part is from 61.2, except that the Crane as a Father is not mentioned.

anemos · Nov 13, 2011

bradford said:
This is not absolute truth. It is relative truth, a local truth, shared between kindred spirits.

I'm not sure how that line talks about local only. I can see the local aspect in the relationship crane/youngs but looking at what a crane meant for Chinese, maybe something more remote implied ? My impression is that 61.2 could be also for something beyond locality. Moreover, if we take this relationship as a metaphor , we can interpret it in many different ways. Even the kindred spirits you mention, makes me think if its only about between people or again something more remote ? H61 talk about fishes and pigs, so maybe 61 is about a more 'extended Truth" ?

I tried to find more info bout the 5 relationships and i read that

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucianism

Filial piety
Main article: Filial piety
"Filial piety" (Chinese: 孝; pinyin: xiào) is considered among the greatest of virtues and must be shown towards both the living and the dead (including even remote ancestors). The term "filial" (meaning "of a child") characterizes the respect that a child, originally a son, should show to his parents. This relationship was extended by analogy to a series of five relationships (Chinese: 五倫; pinyin: wǔlún):[19]
The Five Bonds
Ruler to Ruled
Father to Son
Husband to Wife
Elder Brother to Younger Brother
Friend to Friend

that entry mentions Xiao Jing or Classic of Filial Piety and i could read among other , the followings :

1. The Scope and Meaning of the Treatise (or "Opening Explanation").
Zhong Ni (Confucius) was at home, and Zheng Zi was in attendance. The Teacher said, “The Former Kings have a most important virtue and way of conduct, to make the world harmonious, the people practice peace and cordiality, and neither above nor below have resentment. Do you know what it is?”

Zheng Zi got off his mat and said, “I, Shen, am not clever; how would I know it?” The Teacher said, “Xiao is the foundation of virtue, and is what all teaching grows out of. Sit down; I will tell you.

“The body, hair and skin, all have been received from the parents, and so one doesn’t dare damage them—that is the beginning of xiao. Establishing oneself, practicing The Way, spreading the fame of one’s name to posterity, so that one’s parents become renowned—that is the end of xiao. Thus xiao starts with serving one’s parents, progresses with serving one’s lord, and ends with establishing oneself. The ‘Great Refined Odes’ say, ‘Do not just commemorate your ancestors; cultivate your virtue .’”
2. Filial Piety / Xiao in the Son of Heaven.
The Teacher said, “He who loves his parents does not dare to do evil unto others; he who respects his parents does not dare to be arrogant to others. Love and respect are exerted to the utmost in serving the parents, and this virtue and teaching is extended to the people; the example is shown to the whole world beyond China. That is the xiao of the Son of Heaven. The book Fu on Law says, ‘One person has cause to celebrate; the multitudes rely on that.’

Could we conntect it with 61 ?

anemos · Nov 13, 2011

chingching said:
Or truth as a light bulb lighting up, as insight, bradford says that's local in 61.2 I see this in my two experiences with this line. They were along the lines of , ahhh (bright eyes with elevated spirit) they get it too. Also these times literally involved drinking, tea and coffee though. Both people were related to me, one was my sister, and the other was a brother-from-another-mother, you know those people who aren't related but feel like they are.

I dunno what originally is meant by the drinking but it is the most common thing I share with others, lets go fro a coffee, a beer etc.

This is a collage I made sometime ago. You create a image without intention. You have to choose two magazines, let the pictures pick you and form an image. Visually, most of them , are ugly

Its rather personal so to many makes no sense (this is how I have see it working in my class) yet there become beautiful when you dive into them.

this one reminds me of 61.2

chingching · Nov 13, 2011

eeep! I love this collage!

this question of local vs absolute is why I asked is the eastern notion of truth, as through yijing hex 61 and line 2 and eastern in general, different from the western notion ie plato aristotle and onwards?

I wrote about an unpleasant encounter with a neighbour that I had under a reading of 41.6>19 and then later asked why did this man say this thing to me and I got 61.2 and was horrified that the yijing could show me this in an instance where I felt no affinity with this person. Perhaps this neighbour was calling out his own inner truth, but I didnt want to share a wine cup with him, a mis match of truth occured. So I do see the local truth about this line.

sooo · Nov 13, 2011

Maybe the shared wine was sour.

Or, maybe Yi was referring to sharing wine in accordance with your higher kin and authority.

My question about local, what if your father and mother are deceased? It is a common Chinese custom to put out a cup of wine (or tea) to share with ones ancestors, along with some fruit or rice and incense, on a small sacrificial altar. How local is that?

Also, the other day, while walking beneath the northeastern mountain, I looked up at the sky, then down to the earth, and recalled the traditional Maori mythical reference to "father sky" and "mother earth" (there are many cultural examples of this, including Chinese). I said, "these are my father and my mother. Are we not made of the same as these?" Therefore, our relationship to these are also relating to a local truth, as well as a universal truth? Is a tiger only a tiger when captured in a cage?

rodaki · Nov 13, 2011

sooo said:
Or, maybe Yi was referring to sharing wine in accordance with your higher kin and authority.

My question about local, what if your father and mother are deceased? It is a common Chinese custom to put out a cup of wine (or tea) to share with ones ancestors, along with some fruit or rice and incense, on a small sacrificial altar. How local is that?

that's interesting, I don't remember reading the underlined before . . In some parts of Greece we knock the glass on the table before drinking or if a glass spills we say it's 'for the dead', like making an offering . .

sooo · Nov 13, 2011

I've heard of this tradition, but it wasn't until visiting a local Chinese restaurant, and always seeing this small altar in the corner with these offerings did I ask the wife proprietor what it was for. She sort of brushed it off, mumbling something under her breath about it, until she saw that I genuinely wanted to understand its significance, and then she more articulately explained, it was to honor their deceased parents and other relatives.

It's not so very different than the western tradition of leaving fresh flowers at the tombstone of the graves of departed loved ones. Don't we smell the flowers before setting them in the urn, sharing the aroma? There is still that symbolic sharing in the spirit. Though if someone would rather limit it to pure local literalism, that's up to them. I personally find the interpretation far too fundamentalist and feel it misses the metaphorical value. I mean, realistically, how much of the Yi can be interpreted literally? It was Bradford who not so long ago lectured me that the Yijing is a book of metaphors. Do we literally meet a great man every time Yi says to see him, do we join a real militia or army when we receive 7? Does a three legged caldron really break a leg and fall and soil a real prince, each time we receive 50.4? Then why would 61.2 of necessity refer to a literal, local sharing of a goblet of wine, or even refer to a symbolic sharing with a specific literal other person? Why is it not also a metaphor, which can apply in a number of different ways? Pure hogwash (that's meant as a metaphor).

chingching · Nov 14, 2011

I'm always amazed when it does happen more literally as my default position has been to read it all as metaphors. My dog once chewed through shoots of my favourite plant and killed it, I asked yi about it as I was worried I was neglecting her and I got 21uc, took me days before I read it as a literal 'biting through'.

sooo · Nov 14, 2011

chingching, I love how literal the IC's answers can be. Funny example.

rodaki · Nov 14, 2011

sooo said:
I mean, realistically, how much of the Yi can be interpreted literally? It was Bradford who not so long ago lectured me that the Yijing is a book of metaphors. Do we literally meet a great man every time Yi says to see him, do we join a real militia or army when we receive 7? Does a three legged caldron really break a leg and fall and soil a real prince, each time we receive 50.4? Then why would 61.2 of necessity refer to a literal, local sharing of a goblet of wine, or even refer to a symbolic sharing with a specific literal other person? Why is it not also a metaphor, which can apply in a number of different ways? Pure hogwash (that's meant as a metaphor).

well, hogwash might fit just as well literally

I think it is mostly read as a metaphor, only its meaning has stuck a tad too much on Wilhelm's commentary -and without less than good reason, his has been too important in offering glimpses of a great mythic narrative and, partly, in doing a reading we are looking to find a visionary understanding of our circumstances . . Take the image as it is, without its commentary, and it becomes a much richer cradle of meanings than what the more traditional view has turned it into . . it becomes more of a call to growth

Imo, certain metaphors carry a special ability to cling to our awareness, probably cause they fit too much with an inner imaginative narrative of our own, perhaps with the ‘recognition scene’ that plays a big part of every Hero’s journey or myth. When we still cling to the myth we will want to buy into that momentum of being seen as the special one who can hold and share the chalice –if we can grow beyond it, get under its skin, the metaphor opens up to the myriads of things , to the moon and the sun and earth, to the inner whisper of truth we are looking to re-cognize

.. just saying, first comes how one constructs our inner narrative and then how we look to validate it in the world around us –both literally and metaphorically

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