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The Western Mountain 17.6

justin farrell

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Hi

Does anybody know the name of the mountain referred to as 'The Western Mountain' mentioned in line 17.6? I was wondering whether this was the Mount Tai of hexagram 11, or maybe even Mount Kunlun which is associated with Taoist Deity 'The Queen Mother of the West'?

Many thanks
Justin
 

rodaki

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hi Justin

I had the same question myself some time ago . . I think that what is meant is the Western Hills area but maybe someone could enlighten us both here
 

meng

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I'm not sure of this but I think the Western Mountain refers to Mt Qi (or Chi), where sacrifices were made to Heaven by king and officials.
 

justin farrell

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Hi Rodaki and Meng

Thanks for your replies. I've just read this footnote made by James Legge for 17.6. I thought you might find it interesting:

'The western hill' is mount Khî, at the foot of which was the original settlement of the house of Kâu, in B. C. 1325.

I wonder whether Khî is Legge's version of Qi or Chi? This would then be consistent with what you were saying Meng. It's interesting what Legge was saying about the House of Kâu (Zhou) being at it's foot. I heard the Zhou originally came from the place that is now called Xi'an in Shaanxi in modern China. So I wonder whether the mountain is located somewhere around that area? I've had a quick look on Google Earth but haven't found anything yet.
 

meng

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There are members here who know the answer to your question and more, Justin. Not sure why they withhold it. Maybe they just haven't been around lately.
 

charly

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Hi, Justin:
The western mountain is the sacred Zhou mountain, aka, Rutt said, TWIN PEAKS (1).
China_Sacred_Mtns.jpg

Source: http://www.san-shin.org/China-sacred-mtns.html

Charly
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(1)
(4) Mount Qi ('Twin Peaks') stood near the capital of the original home of the Zhou people in the Wei valley. Inscribed tortoise-shell oracles have been found in the area (see page 164).

Rutt, page 338.

The Luo River Document is said to have been found when a turtle with mysterious signs on its shell came out of the Luo River in the days of Yu, founder ofthe Xia dynasty. The visual element here may be the wrinkled tessellations on a tortoise's carapace.

Kwok Manho prefers to connect the story with tortoise-shells bearing divinatory lines, and quotes Ode 237, where there is a story of divination by tortoise-shells being used by the Zhou ancestors when they chose their first house-sites in the neighbourhood of Mount Qi.

The historicity of such divinations in the area was confirmed by archaeologists in 1977. This may well be part of the prehistory of Zhouyi, but divination was only part ofthe reason for the mysteriousness of the tortoise.

Rutt, page 164.

Ch.

P.D.:
岐山 Qishan (forked mount), the Zhou sacred mountain is said to be near Xian, but I'm not sure if it's the same western sacred taoist mountain Huashan wich we see in the map.

Ch.
 
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charly

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The first Zhou capital was near modern Xi'an, but before that time the clan had been centered in the region of Bin, to the northwest.6 To avoid attack by the non-Han Di tribe the clan leader Old Duke Danfu moved south to Mount Qi; but because of his virtues, not only his clan but other people came and joined him.7

Danfu's grandson Wen Wang had two sons, Wu Wang (Military King) and Zhou Gong. After Wen Wang was succeeded by Wu Wang, Zhou Gong became his major adviser in the establishment of the Zhou dynasty. He also helped educate Wu Wang's son Cheng Wang, loyally serving him instead of seeking the throne for himself. This loyal service is also related in the qin melody Feng
...
岐山 Qishan (Qi Shan): Mount Qi, a mountain and 縣 district in 陝西 Shanxi province. Has illustration. No connection to 箕山 Jishan or to 谿山/溪山 Xi Shan.
...

Source:
http://www.silkqin.com/02qnpu/10tgyy/tg04qsc.htm#top

Charly
 

rodaki

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thanks Charly

last night I tried to look into the various important or sacred mountains trying to find out more and found various sites but none too clear about this one. I came across this site that said of Mt Hua that

Originally it was called Xiyue - meaning 'Western mountain' - because it was the westernmost of the five Taoist peaks
http://sacredsites.com/asia/china/sacred_mountains.html

but I'm not sure if that makes it one of the two your last post excludes or a possible answer :blush:
 

justin farrell

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Thanks for the all the info Charly. It's tempting to assume that it must be Mt Hua; all the more so from what Rodaki found out from the Sacred Sites website - ie that it was originally called the Xiyuè, Western Mountain. I notice that Wikipedia's entry for Mount Hua also says the same. However, I so far haven't read anything that explicitly links Mt Hua with the Zhou. I wonder if anyone else has seen anything?
 

justin farrell

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I notice that as well as 17.6, line 46.4 also makes mention of Mount Qi. Karcher refers to this as the Twin Peaked Mountain and maintains that this is the 'story' behind hexagram 46 as a whole. In fact, he poetically translates the hexagram as "Ascending the Sacred Mountain" in Total I Ching. Charly has already mentioned above that Mount Qi or Qishan is translated into English as "Twin Peaks" or "Forked Mount".

I have just been on Google Earth looking at Mt Hua, and checking out some photographs of it from the Panaramio layer. Here is a link to one of the photo's taken by a user called Wayfarer99:

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/61941233.jpg

In addition to showing a breathtaking scene, this photograph clearly shows Mt Hua as having 'twin peaks'. Given the fact Mt Hua was originally called the "Western Mountain" and that it is located in the same area where the Zhou were said to originate, I personally feel justified in assuming that Mt Hua is the mountain referred to in hexagram 17.6 and 46.4. I would still be interested to here of any definite information saying that this is the case . I imagine there has got to be something somewhere? But thanks to Rodaki, Meng, and Charly for all the info above. It is much appreciated.
 
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rodaki

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Thanks to both of you for the extra info and clarifying it all (that's a lovely photo you have linked there Tuck, I like how those mountain peaks seem as if they were part of a water painting) . .

Thinking now of the Western Mount/Mount Qi as Twin Peaks also makes good sense for that reading of mine
 

charly

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Qishan is not Huashan. Qishan is located in the west of Xian (approx. one hundred and some kilometers from Xian).

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/830/53027052.jpg
Thanks Tuck:

I suspected that were different mountains althoug both called western.

And thanks for the picture.

Time ago I commented Bruce that maybe the twin Peaks migth be associated with female geography.

Yours,

Charly
 

justin farrell

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Thanks also to Tuck for your contribution. However, I should point out that Mount Hua is around 106 Km west of Xi'an - at Lat 34.46, Lon 110.08), around the same distance and direction that you said. Do you have any more information about the whereabouts of the mountain in your photo? I would be interested to see it's exact location on the map. The mountains in our photo's are clearly different, but I would like to learn a little more before I make up my mind. Thanks again,Tuck. :)
 
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charly

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...
Thanks also to Tuck for your contribution. However, I should point out that Mount Hua is around 106 Km west of Xi'an - at Lat 34.46, Lon 110.08), around the same distance and direction that you said. Do you have any more information about the whereabouts of the mountain in your photo? I would be interested to see it's exact location on the map. The mountains in our photo's are clearly different, but I would like to learn a little more before I make up my mind. Thanks again,Tuck. :)
Hi, Justin:

Because what was said by Tuck I understand that Qishan is at the West of Xian and Huashan at the east. Two different mountains although both sacred.

Be said that in ancient times every mountain was sacred for somebody.

I cannot figure out the King and his Nobles risking the neck ascending the Huashan, famous for its hard access sometimes even impossible. (1)

Yours,


Charly
________________________
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Hua-Shan is the name of one of the five sacred mountains of China. It is located in Shaanxi Province, about 120 kilometers east of Xian and is privileged to possess, to ascend to its summit Taoist temples, one of the most rugged and dangerous paths of the planet.

Source: http://tejiendoelmundo.wordpress.co...-hua-shan-el-sendero-mas-peligroso-del-mundo/

huashan6.jpg

More pictures, also movies in the site.
Complete set of pictures: http://www.flickr.com/photos/globetrottingmatt/sets/72057594119056953/

Ch.
 
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tuckchang

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For your reference

Thanks also to Tuck for your contribution. However, I should point out that Mount Hua is around 106 Km west of Xi'an - at Lat 34.46, Lon 110.08), around the same distance and direction that you said. Do you have any more information about the whereabouts of the mountain in your photo? I would be interested to see it's exact location on the map. The mountains in our photo's are clearly different, but I would like to learn a little more before I make up my mind. Thanks again,Tuck. :)

Hi, Justin,

I couldn't find a map to show where is Mt. Qi but only the following information.
Mt. Qi is located at Qishan county, and Qishan county is a county of Baoyi (see the location of Baoji Prefecture within Shaanxi at the right column). Comparing to the location of Xian, you can see Baoyi is in the west.
The photo of Mt. Qi is quoted from a ZhouYi blog; sorry for no English available.

Mt. Hua is in the east of Xian.

Regards
Tuck
 

justin farrell

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I couldn't find a map to show where is Mt. Qi but only the following information.
Mt. Qi is located at Qishan county, and Qishan county is a county of Baoyi (see the location of Baoji Prefecture within Shaanxi at the right column). Comparing to the location of Xian, you can see Baoyi is in the west.
The photo of Mt. Qi is quoted from a ZhouYi blog; sorry for no English available.
Mt. Hua is in the east of Xian.

Hi Tuck and Charly

Thanks for correcting me about Mt Hua being to the East of Xian. I am sorry for suggesting otherwise - I had just got my directions wrong.

I can find Baoji and the town of Qishan on Google Earth,but still haven't managed to locate the mountain on Tuck's photograph. I am still interested in finding the actual location so that I can check out any panaramio photo's that may have been taken there. It would also be interesting to look at the geography of the area. It is a shame that there is little or no information about Mount Qi itself on Google Earth and Wikipedia. This is certainly something I would like to learn more about.

Thank you both for all the information and links.

Best regards
Justin
 
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tuckchang

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Hi Justin,

Thanks for info.
I checked the photos available on Google Earth and found a photo of 岭口 (the mouth of mountain ridge) in the northeast of the town of Qishan. I double checked the official website of Qishan county; it indeed says that Mt. Qi is at the northeast of the county. Except for the location, it is pity that the website doesn’t provide any other information of Mt. Qi but just the photo of relics of Zhouyuan (周原遗址) at http://www.qishan.gov.cn/yzqs/more.aspx?id=56.

Regards
Tuck
 

justin farrell

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Hi Tuck

I found the photo of 岭口 which you mentioned above. Am I right in understanding that the picture is a close up of the V Shape cutting between the two peaks? This cutting is seen in the photograph featured in the blog article you link to. The reason I ask is that the location where the photo is positioned on Google Earth is between two summits which resemble the shape of those in the blog photo. If the 岭口 photograph is the V shape Cutting that I refer to, would you agree that this looks like it is the actual location of Mount Qi on Google Earth ie Lat: 34.5526, Lon: 107.7788 ?

Thanks again for all the info. It is much appreciated.

Best regards
Justin
 

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