I thought this line quite strange for what I asked the Yi...

I have been waking up nervous, anxious, sometimes crying for a number of months now.

I asked Yi 'what if i took some form of anxiety medication?'

17.6>25.

This line is the sage line, and some translations talk about the western mountain being a religious calling, a wo/man in an exhaulted position has no obligation to re-enter the world, but the 'gods' give her a task?

I'm not sure what Yi is saying here, I dont need medication? I just need to believe in something?

Any help as always is greatly appreciated.


Yx

Maybe the sage is a wise counsellor, or doctor? I can recommand reading Lise's explanation of this line, I think it is very apt: http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/index.html

Thanks Persephone,

Thats one of the translations I've read, but am finding it hard to connect with my non-sage self! :

Wikiwing:

‘Seized and bound to it.
And so attending and connected with it.
The king makes offering on the Western mountain.’

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Seized and bound to it .

I wake up feeling this way, so very much am bound to it. Subconcious thoughts?

And so attending and connected with it.

Im bound by my anxieties subconciously, so before i'm even fully aware of it, im connected to the emotion?

The king makes offering on the Western mountain.

The 'king' is line 5, right? so does this suggest the 'sage' needs the kings help? Then persephone I can understand the idea of a psychologist,, councillor etc. But still clueless about what the 'western mountain' represents.

Ive just read Brads Line for this, and all of a sudden its hitting me.

Im bound my this guilty conscience of doing something wrong by others, theres a looming sense that somehow im to blame for something. This is the way i feel in the morning. Brads commentary is perfect (book one PDF http://www.hermetica.info )

17.6, Top 6, Zhi Gua* 25: Wu Wang, Without Pretense (Fan Yao 25.6: without pretense, but still suffering, no merit)
Seize and bind them Then follow, holding them fast The Sovereign* will offer a sacrifice at the Western Mountain
17.6x Seize (and) bind them:
At the top (is) extremity The followers of a toppled tyrant are seized and bound and being taken to sacrifice. They were only following orders, doing as they were told. But now they are held to account for their actions, for their law-abiding crimes against humankind. The king will be on the high ground here, making some examples of the things not to follow. These will not be lambs or young goats; nor are they innocent victims. Where does one’s innocence end and culpability begin? Can a conscience be required? There is a higher law and a justice to go with it. There are consequences to what we follow, or what we attach ourselves to. It is for us to step up and do the right thing, even in times that we are alone. We need not be told what truth is to be true. This is a part of what will finally stop war: people must learn to destroy or undo their own tyrants.

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So i think i'm an innocent, bound by my own **** which there is no basis in reality for? My mind playing tricks on me, and its up to me to recognise that and not follow that part of myself?

Yx

I don't think this line has ever come up for me, but I'd just like to comment on the hex's and maybe give my take on what it might be saying...
Since you say that one insight you had may be that it's about your beliefs, maybe the question in your heart was really just "How can I get past this depression/anxiety?" and you know deep down medication would not be the answer..
So I would also go along with this interpretation if it was my reading - that it's about faith/change of belief, or following your heart in some way, allowing it to be heard. I don't know if that would mean in the religious/spiritual sense or some other calling. And especially with 25, being open and optimistic, trusting. I know that's kind of general, but I get 25 a lot as relating hex and I just somehow tend to connect it with the main hex in this way, if it's advice-related.

As an aside, from the Emotional I Ching on 17:

How does this hexagram find a faith? What is its faith? 2

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I don't know if that's helpful to you.
But maybe looking at what 2 means as part of this, - to accept/be receptive to what the tears and anxiety might be trying to tell you. Your soul is trying to send you a message...? I think I read that somewhere but I can't remember where now! But I try to think of this myself when I'm in some phase of crying a lot or whatever, sort of like what you describe.

yxeli said:

So i think i'm an innocent, bound by my own **** which there is no basis in reality for? My mind playing tricks on me, and its up to me to recognise that and not follow that part of myself?

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I don't know of course, but just reading what you quoted from Bradford on the line, I would read this as advising not to take meds for the problem, if you are seriously considering it.
Also, the fan yao for the line is:

Innocent action brings misfortune.
Nothing furthers.
When, in a given situation, the time is not ripe for further progress, the best thing to do is to wait patiently, without ulterior designs. If one acts thoughtlessly and tries to push ahead in opposition to fate, success will not be achieved.

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Again, don't know if that's helpful at all, but might give another perspective to the reading.

Thanks Tealight.

I understand the usage of Loftings 17>2 here, but if you look at his 17>25 which is what i received, his comments are

(23)

How does this hexagram 'housekeep', clear chaff to bring out the wheat?

25

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So 17 goes by way of 23 (stripping away) to get to 25. This I think makes sense with brads commentary as far as there is some kind of overgrowth going on when you reach line 6 of following, like brad said about controlling ones own tyrants. Maybe stripping these away?

At line 6 of following...what are we following here?

I think its easy to talk about gods in this line, as its the sage, but to do with my question I just cant see a link to it. I doubt Yi is saying 'follow your faith' here exclusively. And I think theres more to this 'western mountain' bit too. At this stage of following, your 'outside' the main idea of the hex, right? (rem; reading that about lines 1 and 6) so your not exactly 'following' anymore. Its changing to innocence, I'm very interested to read your idea of hex 25 Tealight.

And especially with 25, being open and optimistic, trusting. I know that's kind of general, but I get 25 a lot as relating hex and I just somehow tend to connect it with the main hex in this way, if it's advice-related.

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open and optimistic, 'open' in the sense that these feeling are coming up from my subconcious, so yea, i can see the open bit. I never associated 25 with trusting though? I always read it as without pretense, something unexpected...

Thats actually given me another flash here: so 17.6>25 is about having no pretense, not planning anyhting before or having an idea of what to expect, acting from the depths of oneself spontaneously and so innocently. This makes sense to me here, as this emotion isnt being triggered by external stuff i dont think, its something subconcious making me feel this way. Maybe at line 6, the sage follows himself. And there's definite plus and minuses to that, and as you the sage here, its up to you to discern what your going to follow.

This also helps when you see you 'return' in 24 too yourself, then you are stripped so to speak of any outside rote-learning, or things youve picked up which are not part of your path along the way, to express yourself innocently in 25. I like 'without entanglement' here too, works well with 23.

maybe 25 in this case is your 'true self' without entanglement then, and 17.6 says you still have a responsability to guide your true self in 17.6?

I also get a massive whiff of not taking medication with this line too, tealight. I cant quite figure out why though, because other commentaries speak of using the king to help banish something, which defo gives the idea of using a councillor..but i just dont get the feeling off of it.

Maybe the sage is your higher self, the king is the part of you that creates order, and so its back to you to control 25, spontaneous thought fromt he depths.

But how can you 'control' the unexpected?

hmm!


Yx

Yeah that's interesting, the link to 23. So it could also be saying that part of how you interpret this should be something like "how necessary is medication in this situation?". Or, if your question was more broad, then suggesting it's an excess of something that is causing the symptoms you are having. Or a lack of something..

yxeli said:

At this stage of following, your 'outside' the main idea of the hex, right? (rem; reading that about lines 1 and 6) so your not exactly 'following' anymore.

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Well, this would also make sense, if you were looking for a 'what if' scenario of what would happen if you did go on meds, it could be saying that having too much 'faith' in medication could lead to a loss of your true self in some way. And this would also tie in with the 23 aspect.

open and optimistic, 'open' in the sense that these feeling are coming up from my subconcious, so yea, i can see the open bit. I never associated 25 with trusting though?

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I just meant it in a general, spiritual sense - being true to ones own nature. I suppose the opposite would be being weighed down by the world. Or the opposite of guilt, or of seeing guilt, blame etc. If it's advice for a person, like in this case, that's how I would read it for myself.
And that the 17 could be simply guiding you to follow some aspect of your true nature that maybe you've been going away from.
Anymore than that is hard to say.. As an answer to the basic question re going on meds though, I would say it's clearly advising against this. I suppose then I would then ask another question for more specific guidance on what to do next.

I also get a massive whiff of not taking medication with this line too, tealight. I cant quite figure out why though, because other commentaries speak of using the king to help banish something, which defo gives the idea of using a councillor..but i just dont get the feeling off of it.

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Talking to a councellor doesn't have to lead to taking meds..

From the point of view of mei hua yi shu strong metal object trigram is hurting weak wood self trigram in both hexagrams.So the answer would have to be a no to medication.

25 is definitely a tilt in the direction of no medicinal herbs.

From the point of view of mei hua yi shu strong metal object trigram is hurting weak wood self trigram in both hexagrams.So the answer would have to be a no to medication.

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Hi Peter,

mei hua yi shu? This i've never heard of! quik google, plum blossom numerology? Interesting, a nice new avenue to explore, thanks.

Also the idea of 'metal' hurting my wood self here is kind of interesting, cos I went to the doctor for another reason recently, and they said my iron levels were higher than normal, but they said there was nothing to worry about? Maybe this is whats making me feel a little crap in the morning...


I just dont know why Yi wouldnt have thrown me the 'use no medicine in an illness not incurred by myself' line to do with this, 17.6 is just a great thing to explore regarding my own mental health.

Cheers,

Yx

Maybe they wanted to get my attention.I asked recently about medical issues and using ( with some help) the calendar numbers for YMDH I got 17 - 25. Since it was a mei hua yi shu reading I didnt pay too much attention to the text.Or was too 'busy' or lazy to do the research. First time I got that line.

Maybe they wanted to get my attention.I asked recently about medical issues and using ( with some help) the calendar numbers for YMDH I got 17 - 25. Since it was a mei hua yi shu reading I didnt pay too much attention to the text.Or was too 'busy' or lazy to do the research. First time I got that line.

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Interesting its come up to do with medication in both our readings..

but i dont get 'maybe they wanted to get my attention'?

You talking bout the 'ancestors' here, or something else?


Yx

The coincidence caught my attention.
'They' is just an expression. No particular significance intended.Or perhaps I was referring to the Spirit of I Ching.

BTW do you use Irish coins to cast ? It has recently come to my attention that the obverse front , the national side with the harp, is officially the heads.( see wikipedia obverse reverse).The European side with the map of Europe and the number 2 is the tails side.I assumed wrongly that the harp side in keeping with the old tradition was the tails side.

pg

i use 5 cent coins sometimes, but mainly im casting with a virtual yarrow stalks system, seems just as accurate to me.

http://www.russellcottrell.com/VirtualYarrowStalks/VirtualYarrowStalks.htm

And then ill get runs of same hex's ( and same lines) after using that site and casting coins, so i reckon its perfectly acceptable.

i wondered about what heads and tails were, but do you not hold to whichever way you decide, is perfectly fine? cos i've been using the european union side as heads and harp (or german, spainish, french sides) as tails, and it all seems to be ok this end...

ah synchronicity! yeh you were meant to reply to this 17.6, cos of the medication element we both share...must mean that in future in the archives this 17.6 and meds is gonna be very usefull for someone out there!

Yx