Hello all,

I have struggled with low self-esteem and depression (mainly negative thoughts about myself) since I was a teenager. I've been taking anti-depressants for the last four years. The first - citalopram - prescribed more for anxiety than clinical depression (I mean the kind where you find it difficult getting out of bed) I was on for three years - a break of about 9 months in that time - but switched to prozac six months ago because I felt citalopram was no longer working and I hated the way it made me drowsy. Anyway, I recently stopped taking prozac because it zapped my appetite - which was great at the beginning but I started missing the joy of food and losing maybe too much weight, although I made sure I ate, and healthily, even though I never really felt like eating much. I also started having weird fantasies of self-harm and suicide, BUT not intending to act on them at all, and without the accompanying negative emotions, just imagining doing so, which was weird so I thought I'd stop taking anti-depressants all together (I was feeling fairly good about life too at the time, well, I always feel good about life in general, just never me specifically.) Prozac did definitely help me though, in terms of my negative thoughts and I didn't get as stressed about things (I'm feeling v stressed/on edge these days now without, like I'm unable to cope with my course and job and relating, etc.). I didn't go cold turkey though, to wean me off the doc put me on the lowest dose of citalopram (first drug I took), which I've been taking for the past couple of weeks but stopped a few days ago because of the drowsiness, and because the idea was that I'd go off anti-ds altogether, give it another shot without again, but I'm back to feeling **** - so maybe I should just commit to being a 'lifer' on anti-depressants... Also, I'm having self-harm fantasies again, But this time, the negative emotions to go with it... although again, no intention of acting on this...

So, now I'm not taking anything I feel frazzled. Full of self-critical thoughts but worse than that, I feel like I'm not thinking straight. BUT this could be because I'm suddenly riddled with negative emotions again, not so much that the thoughts themselves are stupid, I just think they are because there's not enough serotonin, perhaps, in my system... I'm not sure if that's the key or not. I also feel less articulate which is scary, and socially anxious again. I am on a waiting list for CBT - but honestly, I'm not sure if it's more the emotions that give rise to the negative thoughts, rather than the other way round. Also, though looking into CBT has made me realise, oh, it's not normal to have those kinds of thoughts all the time - I do have an illness - which is useful and makes you feel less doomed, in practice, I haven't been able to consciously change my own thoughts - you can't lie to yourself after all. But, I'm on a waiting list so will give it another go - perhaps it's lazy thinking on my part, but I can't make myself think postively about something, if I feel the negative to be true.

Crux of all this is, maybe I should just go back on prozac? I will speak to the doctor first of course, and may give myself a couple of weeks without - well until the CBT doc calls - to see if things improve, but I currently feel Horrible about myself and frightened, and worse, can't think straight... and I don't know how much longer I can sit with that...

I asked the I Ching:
'Feeling horribly inadequate at the mo. Should I return to prozac?'

I Ching answered:
23.1,3,5,6 > 63

I do feel like I'm splitting apart, in my brain and heart at the mo, though keeping things going outwardly... Does 63 suggest yes? As in, it's just the way it is, I need medication to keep me balanced (63)? A couple of my friends, who had clinical depression, really swear by prozac, and have no qualms in saying, 'Yeah, I'm going to be on them forever.' But I guess because my depression is more anxious and paranoid and stressed than physical lethargy and suicidal tendencies, it's less apparent to me and others, that it's something that needs medical treatment; that it's a physical illness, just in the brain, and should be treated, as you would, say, diabetes... What do you think the Yi is saying here?

THANKS

Em Ching, I'm sorry to hear you're having such a difficult time ...

You have four moving lines in 23 and have indeed stripped off the prozac a number of times. On the strength of your 23.6 and the relating hex of 63, I'd say that Yi is supporting your use of prozac for your condition. I say this although I usually say that the I Ching cannot be used successfully for questions of medication; that it's too difficult to interpret.

By the way, I never heard of CBT. What is that?

I would recommend this form of questioning for the various routes you might take:

What result will I get from taking Prozac?
What result will I get from CBT?
What result will I get if I stay off all anti-depressants?
and so forth ...


By the way, are you sure you're getting enough Vitamin D? The evidence is mounting that three quarters of the population is deficient in Vitamin D, and the deficiency symptoms are remarkably similar to the symptoms of clinical depression.

God, that sucks. I know how you feel to some extent.

I've medicated myself with alcohol for sometime and I know that isn't the way to go, and neither are pills.

But 23 is a clear no to me on the medication, but I only use the I Ching for a second opinion, not a God, so I don't know. 63 indicates impermanence also. So take these things into account, I guess.

Hey Em Ching,

I feel for ya. Been there myself. was on citalopram for a number of years. Tried to kill myself, ended up in a mental hospital for awhile, the whole shebang. Its a horrible place to be, but you can learn so much there too, spiritually.

Have been off medication for 3 yrs now, and lawd do i have my ups and downs, but i refuse to go back on meds. The reason being something my dad told me, and was later reitterared in an i ching line (after i discovered yi). My dad said to me ' when you go up, you have to go down. when you go down, you have to go up'. This concept is co iching-centric! 11.3 right?!

Of course I'm not advocating this for you, but the word i used to describe myself during the 6 months prior to coming off meds was 'complacent'. I really had no motivation, but didnt really care that i didnt anyway, ynow what i mean??

When i realised that meds werent solving my problems, they were just keeping me 'comfortably numb', I decided to be courageous. In spite of my doctors saying it wasnt a good idea, and id probably return to medication some day, i told them all to sod off ( not literally, but yknow what i mean) , and started eating the right foods, excercising, and most importantly, watching my moods. Just watching them. I always had the safety net of going back on meds if i really was hitting rock bottom, but, you know what? I havent. Even though sometimes i feel like i want to end it all, now i have this perspective. When the **** hits the fan, i ask myself: Why was it that last week i felt so great, and tonight i feel so terrible? where is the constant (63) here?

What ive come to believe is there is none, theres just ups and downs, you cant be up without knowing what down means, deceptively simple explanation i know, but really, if your going to garner anyhting from yi, its these 2 energies that control the universe, right? up down, passive active, yin yang, yeh? ( hope i havent completely lost all capacity to make sense here!)

anyway, to your reading. I would say yi is saying strip away your need for 'completion', a final outcome.

Now what would be completion in this instance?

Recovery?
Not feeling depressed anymore?

obviously take this interp with a grain of salt, but maybe you dont need to have everything in order (63)? Just a thought. Maybe searching for another drug isnt the answer?

Ive heard AMAZING things about CBT btw, but ive never gone to a meeting. I think that Cognitive Behavioural Therapy is like meditation really, as it allows us to view our thought processes more clearly. These days, when im stressing out, i meditate. Just letting your thoughts flow without identifying with them, but returning to the feeling of my breath when I realise that ive gone off on a thought spiral. This has really really genuinely helped me keep things in perspective. By not giving myself to the story, the thought form, in my head, by literally replacing that script with 'no-thing', 'no-thoughts-at-all'', i come out of meditation deeply centered, focused, and at peace with whatever little gimmicks my mind was playing previously to keep my ego occupied. A little meditation each day does wonders.that, and eating well, and making sure i move my ass regularly.(the latter i REALLY need to work on more ) :edit-- and Yi of course!!

Bests to you,

Yx

I asked the I Ching:
'Feeling horribly inadequate at the mo. Should I return to prozac?'

I Ching answered:
23.1,3,5,6 > 63

I do feel like I'm splitting apart, in my brain and heart at the mo, though keeping things going outwardly... Does 63 suggest yes? As in, it's just the way it is, I need medication to keep me balanced (63)? A couple of my friends, who had clinical depression, really swear by prozac, and have no qualms in saying, 'Yeah, I'm going to be on them forever.' But I guess because my depression is more anxious and paranoid and stressed than physical lethargy and suicidal tendencies, it's less apparent to me and others, that it's something that needs medical treatment; that it's a physical illness, just in the brain, and should be treated, as you would, say, diabetes... What do you think the Yi is saying here?

Click to expand...

My impression is you already know your answer and are already acting on it (hex 63) ...you have lines 1 and 6 moving so this is a whole little episdoe that might just about be done with now....finished. In 23.6 one can no longer paper over the cracks in the wall paper, one needs a whole new wall....somewhere else.


I don't feel qualified to say if you should go back on the prozac or not. I do know that for some these kinds of drugs are addictive despite the official line being that they aren't and i do know some people go through hell when they come off them due to withdrawal symptoms. ( Presumably you have googled forums where people discuss the withdrawal symptoms they face when coming off these things ?)

I wonder if you feel so bad now becasue you are having a drug withdrawal, and in time you will actually feel better ?

I don't know...but I know I loved Yxeli's post....you probably do better to listen to her than anyone, she's been through it and out the other side.

As for feeling inadequate....well sigh..I'm just not sure how anyone so talented (anyone seen her poetry site ?) brave ( she went to China alone to work when struggling with depression) or pretty (I have met her folks, she is cute) can possibly feel inadequate


but you won't believe me I guess.


Have you tried cognitive behavioural therapy Em ? I think you have.


I can't really say this answer means do or don't with the prozac....I think prozac suits some and not others, but the fact that you question it is good.

Sorry can't help more...will send you some thoughts

It's dark but it's witty and interesting and I love the use of the pictures.....there's billions of blogs on the net but only some stand out...like this one by Em

http://writeformorethanabite.tumblr.com/

this is great!

A colon-D is a laugh,

A colon-parenthesis a grin.

It’s not a farce

Just put them in

Stop the doubt from getting in.

Oh, the ex and and the o?

No, they’re just for show

xoxo.

Click to expand...

id like to add to your poem, em, very badly i might add, if you dont think that very rude? i thought it might make some sense. but maybe not. oh well here goes nothing!

ahem.

_

a colon - parenthesis is a sadface
a colon- parenthesis is also a grin

why is it that these same symbols
can somehow define what mood i'm in?




could it be that they mean the same thing?




why do we define ourselves with these icons that emote?
to the doubter, they are simply trivial social formalities, their connotations remote.

i know, deep down, that this is the same as that

so why let these emotions effect me
to the point of throwing in the hat?!

this will always change to that
and vice/versa, again and again,

up/down
grin / grim
they spin
spin
spin

BUT
with time
and with no place to doubt-- of course,

i'll be
a little wiser
to their centrifugal force






i know that silly0- and i really hope you dont think im trivialising your poetry!! I just thought it might help a little??

oh and just started following you on tumblr there ( zillion times better then fb dont you think?!)


Yx

I was thinking that taking Prozac is a matter of how intense the symptoms of depression are for you at the current time. It is possible to manage depressive feelings and thoughts with non-drug methods, but the patient has to have the get-up-and-go to actually take charge of themselves. Getting bright full-spectrum lighting every day and getting aerobic exercise for 30 minutes every day is very important.

Most people who have trouble getting the full-spectrum sunlight can get a comparable result by taking a supplement of vitamin D3 every day. A good dosage is 2,000 IU.

Many people have had success with the herb St. John's Wort.

Other natural remedies for depression: Fish oil, melatonin, tryptophan, niacinamide, and di-methyl glycine [DMG]. Niacinamide is vitamin B3 and the reason you never hear of it is because it is non-patentable and only costs pennies a day.

So, there are other remedies out there, but they require that the patient become very health-conscious and actually have the energy to take charge of their own regimen.

Cognitive behavioral therapy is also very good for depression, but, again, you have to have the energy to participate at a very high level in monitoring and sometimes writing down your thoughts and categorizing them, depending on whose system you are following. Cognitive behavioral therapy usually involves going to group meetings. Cognitive behavioral therapy and Prozac can be done at the same time. Cognitive behavioral therapy often takes some time and patience to learn how to apply, so using a medication in the interim is not unheard of.

So I would say that it's definitely better to use non-drug means, but that whether or not to use Prozac depends upon the severity and persistence of the symptoms for you personally.

Re-visiting your 23 to 63 reading, I find that it can be interpreted either way. It is just so difficult to use the I Ching for medical conditions.

Hello,

Very sorry for late reply - and still sorry as I'm unable to fully respond at the moment but will do soon. My current position is to take CBT counselling seriously and give it 3 months, and give other natural pick-me-ups more of a go, and see how I go.

Thanks so so much for your wisdom and advice. Will respond more fully soon.

Hello em ching, I have only just joined Clarity but came across your posting. I am currently on prosac and have been taking it for some years now. Some years ago I had a catastrophic breakdown and ended up in hospital. I found it very good, decided to give it a chance and it worked so well for me. I don't want to take it forever but for now I will. Ideally no one wants to be taking medication but if you are having such an unsettled and distressing time finding the right anti depressant for you could be good. But that's just my experience. It may not be for you. You need some support just now and that's all it's for. It may be a matter of finding one that works for you and where you experience little side effects. I don't think it is good for you to be so distressed with no support. If you do not want to take anti depressants at all because it really isn't working and the side effects are too severe then you must ask your GP for help. Your mental health Dr could refer you to psychotherapy first. Also as someone else suggested there are natural anti depressants such as St John's wort and Vit b3 (as stated) if you abandon the Anti depressants your dr proscribed. I myself hope to try these things in the future. Try talk to others and get out in to Nature, which is very healing.
A great book to get is Healing Visualizations -creating Health through Imagery. by Gerald Epstein MD . 3 minute visualizations for such things as Anxiety, Depression, Fear, Anger, stress, burying the past, Egyptian rebirth! Prayer is good too. The I Ching can guide you as to what needs to be done.
Best Wishes Morgann