...life can be translucent

Menu

Learning : h4 & h29

anemos

visitor
Joined
Aug 5, 2010
Messages
2,316
Reaction score
125
Have been thinking of h4 and H29 in terms of a learning process. Generally, from my experience and from what I have noticed in the forums, the reaction when we get 4 is milder than the “OMG!!!” of h29.

In h4 seems that our ignorance , being a blank slate before a situation , accepting that Not-knowing , feels soothing . On the other hand, in 29 the feelings are different. Somehow we have grown up – not a stream that just enters in the world but already a formed river. We have grow some habits , patterns of “flowing” which sometimes work but then there are those time we need to re-examine them , unlearn and possibly relearn. There are those time we probably thinking of the forces have conditioned /shaped us us and appears as there is a necessity to re-condition ourselves, kind of returning to h4 state.

A h4 drop of water is different from a h29 one. The one shapes its course , the later follows the shaped “path”- for good or worst …In h4 we are in the class with the teacher assisting us while in 29 we’re out there in the world we without the safety net of the teacher, so to speak. It’s the time we check our knowledge, ways of thinking ways of acting . We check our progress in some ways in order to progress. And all that comes with the accompanied feelings which most of the times is fear , anxiety, worries , etc etc.

Recently I was trying a new approach on something and what was more apparent was the feeling I needed to deal with and behavior sprung from those feeling and less with cognitive processes. however its that conscious /unconscious aspect here... Anyways, the plan was very simple yet what was rocking the boat was those feelings- not all of them negative I should note. That was the learning and the “danger” needed to confront rather the situation itself and during that times I could see the interplay of h4 and 29 .

I understand that we can pair any hexes we want and made a coherent story, yet in terms of learning I come to think that those two make a pretty good combination. Sometimes when you are in h29 you need to dive in hex4 and vv when in hex 4 you need to make that dive in the dark dangerous waters of 29-( that is a whole different story tho)


Would love to hear your thoughts on the h4-h29 interplay
 

AskingQuestions

visitor
Joined
Jun 22, 2013
Messages
40
Reaction score
2
Courage vs. curiosity. 29 is the deep dark unknown, a place that needs courage to be crossed and gotten through. A place where light and understanding do not stick. 4 is the curiosity which can discover how to master the hurdles. It is the potential to mature, but hasn't yet. Sort of like you were saying, 29 is the 'unconscious aspect' and so 4 would be that unconscious aspect's pontential (not necessarily conscious yet). That is how I see 4 and 29 interacting.
 

meng

(deceased)
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
1,257
Reaction score
94
I've always felt 4 and 29 were a younger and older brother.
 

anemos

visitor
Joined
Aug 5, 2010
Messages
2,316
Reaction score
125
Courage vs. curiosity. .

yes, AQ, I see too those attitudes in 29 & 4 . When 29 asks for renewal , imo, its where h4 enters. Kind of feeding this process. The opposite direction works too when the teaching becomes learning through experience
 
Last edited:

anemos

visitor
Joined
Aug 5, 2010
Messages
2,316
Reaction score
125
I've always felt 4 and 29 were a younger and older brother.

It is ! Observing my nieces, as those days we spend a lots of time together, and because of their age difference and different personalities this interplay of two hexs became more apparent especially the times they need to join forces to achieve a common goal.
 

meng

(deceased)
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
1,257
Reaction score
94
Nice.

Also, 4 is water springing from mountain, and mountain represents the youngest son in the hierarchy of trigrams. 29 water doubled (double trouble). Water is the middle son in the hierarchy. Water upon water is deep and dangerous. Big and dangerous brother's been there, done that. 4 is just getting started.
 

AskingQuestions

visitor
Joined
Jun 22, 2013
Messages
40
Reaction score
2
Bruce has me thinking about the top Trigrams of each:

Top of 29 - Water - Reaction and Response
☵ Water
☵ Water
Water is responding and reacting, sinking and creeping into all crevices available. It doesn't really get to pick. It is reactionary. So with 29 there is no land, just swimming and reacting accordingly.

Top of 4 - Mountain - Resistance and Patience
☶ Mountain
☵ Water
Mountain is resistant and patient, maturely developing and accumulating over time something to stand on. So with 4 it would be a mix of reactions and restraint and so is about discipline and education.

The song There is a Mountain (Live Interesting Version!) by Donovan has me thinking that this combo of 29 and 4 is a lot like a caterpillar and his journey towards metamorphosis. At first the caterpillar is just eating and eating (they pretty much eat non-stop) and wonder around on the ground and low parts of trees. They don't seem to be learning anything, just responding and reacting and... EATING. Then they somehow (perhaps from built in timing?) start a slow climb up the tree to spin their pupa. When they emerge as butterflies they do not eat, they only drink nectar and have different goals ;) like mating etc. Seems like the caterpillar stage is very 29 and the climb to the top of the tree is very 4. I don't know what the butterfly stage would be.

Do you think that Gua 7 and 59 are closely linked to this whole picture? Are they perhaps the steps needed to get from 29 to 4 (and vice versa)? How do you think we get from a heart pounding swim(29) to swimming lessons(4)? Our parents and teachers perhaps. Or 4 changing to 29, we would have to let go of what we have learned, allow ourselves to disconnect from the build up of the mountain(4) and just take a plunge(29), also a metamorphosis.
 

rodaki

visitor
Joined
Jun 26, 2008
Messages
2,176
Reaction score
78
. . it makes me wonder: if 4 is filled with excitement and apprehension for what lies beyond the mountain and 29 has gotten the hang of it, yet coming dangerously close to getting into a rut, could 40 (thunder - older brother- above) be, the most mature, full-rounded way to deal with Water? Do your thing, aim the bow, and then, let go, get back south, to the roots, where all action springs from and belongs?
. . I kinda like the idea


btw, I think the idea of protection is one that often figures strongly with 4, whereas 29 mostly lets things rise or not according to their inner qualities
 

anemos

visitor
Joined
Aug 5, 2010
Messages
2,316
Reaction score
125
Also, 4 is water springing from mountain,

Was thinking of another image too. Water making its way through mountain. Was looking at that trigram and "don't go North" pooped into mind :) Like the water moves towards the unknown. kids, lol

Also, being The experienced Brother has its advantages and disadvantages too. Experience is good but sometimes it can be inhibiting . That is my feeling every time I offer an interpretation to Shared readings i.e "do I open up a reading for the querent or restrict it ?"
 
Last edited:

anemos

visitor
Joined
Aug 5, 2010
Messages
2,316
Reaction score
125
Bruce has me thinking about the top Trigrams of each:

Top of 29 - Water - Reaction and Response
.

Yup !! Have associated 29 with reactions Vs Responses too. Reactions mostly like an automatic mode of behavior while response a more thoughtful one , in a manner of speaking . There is a game I posted a while ago where by playing one can see the difference . Its simple and profound in some ways. Will try to find it again and post it here.

Do you think that Gua 7 and 59 are closely linked to this whole picture?

Yes, I had looked at trigrams too and how 4 becomes 29 and 29>4 . Interesting how lines 5 and 6 have some common themes in the context of h59 and 7. Line 5 ,in both is a not yet state while 6's something its too much in terms of discipline and with which armies we march .

Haven't though of the caterpillar as 29 . I could see it as 4=caterpilar = shaping and 29= butterfly= shaped but you give an interesting twist :)
 

meng

(deceased)
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
1,257
Reaction score
94
With trigrams, I also associate Kan with Li, being the middle son and daughter, water and fire. They are the flashy and dangerous ones in the family. Kan is sort of a bad ass, Li wears her hems too high. Adolescence. :rolleyes:
 

rodaki

visitor
Joined
Jun 26, 2008
Messages
2,176
Reaction score
78
reading that figure-like analogy always make me think of Yi trigrams as Grease characters :D - can't say I don't like the idea though . .


In any case, I think 4 is about being self-protective too, not only about external barriers. Receiving 4 makes me think that perhaps I'm trying too much to predict the future in order to protect myself from possible dangers - as if we can stop or give solid shape to the flow of time and the things in it . . freeze frame and run the tape to find out what happens afterwards
 

anemos

visitor
Joined
Aug 5, 2010
Messages
2,316
Reaction score
125
ummm dunno. I feel its more extreme curiosity and anticipation to see that new thing. Pretty natural in the context of 4 . Like we get a present and tear apart the wrappings to see what did we get. Not sure how can we be aware of danger when we are kinda naive ( with the positive meaning) . Like the kids they start walking and be unaware of the dangers. You can see no fear in the eyes till the first fall. then things change a bit.

Anyways, looking at the imaginary, sometimes feels like 29 has to return back to the spring. Start again. Its something we say too when a discussion becomes confusing because too many things lay in the table. "lets return to zero basis"
 

rodaki

visitor
Joined
Jun 26, 2008
Messages
2,176
Reaction score
78
I think there's a difference between our ideas of how young, 'ignorant' kids behave and how a hexagram might actually manifest in our lives - besides, we're living an adult life where we are very rarely as fresh and 'unknowing' as when we were when kids . .
Anyways, I find that anxiety and fears (big or small-scale ones) and the need to cover up, protect myself through knowing, are often part of where I"m at when I receive 4 - maybe for you it's different

Now, after receiving it, that's a different story ;)
 

anemos

visitor
Joined
Aug 5, 2010
Messages
2,316
Reaction score
125
Do you think that Gua 7 and 59 are closely linked to this whole picture?

Another interesting route is
a. 4.5 > 59.6 >29
b. 29.5 > 7.6 > 4

I don't use this method often but here highlights some other aspects of the path :)
 

anemos

visitor
Joined
Aug 5, 2010
Messages
2,316
Reaction score
125
I think there's a difference between our ideas of how young, 'ignorant' kids behave and how a hexagram might actually manifest in our lives - besides, we're living an adult life where we are very rarely as fresh and 'unknowing' as when we were when kids . .

I don't believe the idea of tabula rasa 100% neither that we can return to the innocent/ spotless mind of our early years unless we can have the means to erase every memory or experience ; Lacuna Inc :p We use those terms in a not that literal way i guess, at least i did.

H4 , to me , has a lot of uncertainty and needs to trust and the teacher's lesson's or behavior , as the lines describe has to do a lot with trust/ mistrust. The child starts to become an individual. In hex 29 could be too much trust in some respects , we can speak from authority because of our knowledge and/or experience ... but things are not that simple- authority could be a trap too... Yet, because of our mature mind - lets say- we can still act because we can control fears and instincts. What AQ said also.

overall, I think , even older , we always have to face those h4 moments , where we don't know as if new to this world . Its mainly a state of mind and fortunately while we can't escape our history we can form new channels, new connections, new paths.
 
Last edited:

rodaki

visitor
Joined
Jun 26, 2008
Messages
2,176
Reaction score
78
sure we can and we better do! Though my comment was not questioning that and neither was it assuming a literal meaning of 'unknowing' - that was more of a figure of speech there

But really, I don't like having a conversation get lost too much into semantics cause then all the flow goes amiss - having a 'beginner's mind' is one of the richest experience we can have (specially as adults!) yet it also comes with its short-comings; being insecure and dealing with fear and anxiety is one of them

There is a quote I found once on the net which captures the depth and span of 4 for me


I've recently recommitted to my beginner's mind and to being a student, by participating in a teacher training. All of the joys - the excitement, the passion, the bliss of learning - associated with being a newbie are back full-force; yet so are the pitfalls: the struggles, the demands - and the questioning of your own confidence and self-knowledge. In short, the questioning of my own authority


(author unknown - and pun not intended! :p)
 

meng

(deceased)
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
1,257
Reaction score
94
I've recently recommitted to my beginner's mind and to being a student, by participating in a teacher training. All of the joys - the excitement, the passion, the bliss of learning - associated with being a newbie are back full-force; yet so are the pitfalls: the struggles, the demands - and the questioning of your own confidence and self-knowledge. In short, the questioning of my own authority

Like that a lot.
 

anemos

visitor
Joined
Aug 5, 2010
Messages
2,316
Reaction score
125
There is a quote I found once on the net which captures the depth and span of 4 for me


I've recently recommitted to my beginner's mind and to being a student, by participating in a teacher training. All of the joys - the excitement, the passion, the bliss of learning - associated with being a newbie are back full-force; yet so are the pitfalls: the struggles, the demands - and the questioning of your own confidence and self-knowledge. In short, the questioning of my own authority

Yes ! that was the dive of 29 to 4 I was trying to describe. I see also the 59 and 7 parts .. .
Nice , refreshing dive
 

Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

Top