I have never found any mention in the I Ching of the seas, oceans, sailing ships, or indeed any maritime references. The coast of China is fairly limited in relation to its population, and its size has demanded that the land support its population in terms of resources, wealth and geo-political power.

Yet, the Chinese were expert mariners and exerted influence through trade across vast distances overseas from their mainland territories. This absolute absence of maritime reference therefore has to be a puzzle.

But I wonder if the translations we have received in the West correctly exclude the sea / oceans from the I Ching and e.g. always give Tui as a Lake.

Maybe users have found their divinations more pertinent if the sea is considered as an element in some hexagrams, esspecially those with Tui, rather than a lake?

I'm not an expert in this (or any other) area, but I would allude to the sea as Kan/29, and to Tui/Dui in terms of shallow and fertile waters, and to rivers as obstacles or challenges to cross.

Bradford may be able to offer more scholarly insight here.

When the Yijing was written the sea was not a big part of life the main parts of the kingdom. A lot of the ideas and feelings that we associate with the "oceanic feeling" and other such mystical states were carried by the yellow earth , Kun, which represents that sort of all-embracing acceptance. Dui is not oceanic at all. She is more personal and local, a marsh, or wetland, not even what we would consider a lake, but something more full of life.

bradford said:

Dui is not oceanic at all. She is more personal and local

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that's my sense of Dui too . . I have searched Yi for an image of the sea and have come across instances of it in specific readings, but never something more. I used to think that the sea must be Kan, but it's not, not really. Talking to a friend who was a kayak champion here, in my country, has made me see Kan more as river rapids, or whitewater kayaking (see this, for example)


The hexagram that has come up more often as sailing, in my readings, has been hx39 (one that has taken me some time to see as a good fit, but Yi insists on it for years now )

My experience with the sea, including riding out three hurricanes, as well as diving, were most definitely a sense of 29, but I get Brad's broad and expansive image of Kun as well. It really depended on the specific circumstances. I can also see canyon rapids as 29, but placid and easy drifting appearing rivers and streams, well, it too just depends. I had a friend drown in one, getting caught in a hidden undercurrent, so there was a 29 element to that as well. To add another element, here flash floods are common during the monsoon season, and cars and people get swept away in them, so even they can at times be 29, and 29 is water after all. But I guess we're speaking in terms of generalities in the original symbols of the time. I've fished in Dui lakes and marshes (my favorites), but only rare sections of the deep and gin clear, steep canyon high desert lakes from Colorado River found here could qualify as that, otherwise they too are 29 in character. Most larger lakes are an ecosystem which embody more than one character, from Dui to Kan.

Regarding early and later arrangement, do Kan and Dui have the same qualities in those two different arrangements ? and if yes why the are yang in one and yin in the other ( and vv) ?

Intuitively the contained potential of Dui is a representation of Heaven's more invisible potential, while the adaptability of Kun becomes more visible on Kan. The flowing water vs the contained water makes me consider Kan having shared attributes with the sea

sooo said:

To add another element, here flash floods are common during the monsoon season, and cars and people get swept away in them, so even they can at times be 29, and 29 is water after all.

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I think that's important here, Kan is a far more encompassing hexagram than Dui. One represents a natural element, the other, an 'incarnation' of it. If we want to find one word that distinguishes Dui, is its shores, its enclosure, bringing both safety and stagnation. When I try to see movement in it, I see a whirlpool, like a dancing girl, where Kan is the eternal flow of change

. . maybe Dui is the sea's coastline and the life it harbors, while Kan is the sea travel

rodaki said:

I think that's important here, Kan is a far more encompassing hexagram than Dui. One represents a natural element, the other, an 'incarnation' of it. If we want to find one word that distinguishes Dui, is its shores, its enclosure, bringing both safety and stagnation. When I try to see movement in it, I see a whirlpool, like a dancing girl, where Kan is the eternal flow of change

. . maybe Dui is the sea's coastline and the life it harbors, while Kan is the sea travel

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I can relate to this from personal experience, the reaction of my own sense of danger, vs sense of wonder and joy. That joy has come from leaving the main lake and discovering a wonderfully secluded enclosure, yes, shorelines of reeds, lily pads, more organic green color of water, and out of the way of wind. I could even smell the organic and fertile water and shoreline. It's intimate and out of the way. One such favorite fishing spot had a single large tree where eagles would gather in great numbers, where snakes swam, frogs lept and splashed, crawdads searched for food, everything alive and moving. This was Dui, and it felt to me as a slice of heavenly intimacy.

Then leaving that sanctuary, faced with harsh winds blowing across a vast and open canyon of deep and clear water, whipping up dangerous waves. This was Kan.

Both belonged to the same body of water but were entirely different in the feeling I'd receive from them. I loved Dui, and had a fearsome respect for Kan. I completely identify with the dynamic of each as being distinct in their nature.

I can imagine, though have not experienced all that you have, similar dynamics during your oceanic experiences while sailing the seas of your homeland.

hey there,

I very much enjoyed the way you described Dui, it made it all come alive in front of my eyes . . and yes, there are moments like this in sailing, finding that emerald waters cove, inviting and familiar and intimate. Of course the moments of Kan in doing a crossing too, but at sea the dangers of Kan are always closely tied to the winds - maybe that's why I feel the rapids are closer to the sense of Kan? could be!


I wonder where TomOrton has gone though . .

Maybe he was swallowed and in the belly of a big fish deep in the abyss.

I thought his name was Tomo and PM'd him, asking if he was the well known blues guitarist and teacher, Tomo Fujita.

And we wonder why we see hexagrams differently! uch:

I associate Kan with any sort of precipice.

Also am engaged in the way nature so often will match one together with another, like the Dui cover and wide open and windy Kan. One of my little secrets when tournament bass fishing was to look for areas where steep cliffs and drop offs would merge with a soft and grassy entrance into a cove. This would provide the game fish with shallow marshy access and the safety of the deep abyss both within immediate vicinity and access, where migrating schools of baitfish would travel back and forth throughout the day. I referred to them as where Yin and Yang merge. My redneck fishing buddies would just shake their heads and think I was nuts. However Rick Clunn, one of the all time pros of the professional circuit, also used eastern philosophy in his lucrative fishing career, and his peers thought he was nuts too. He was a hero figure to me and I listened carefully when he spoke or wrote of his observations of nature.

sooo said:

Maybe he was swallowed and in the belly of a big fish deep in the abyss.

I thought his name was Tomo and PM'd him, asking if he was the well known blues guitarist and teacher, Tomo Fujita.

And we wonder why we see hexagrams differently! uch:

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:chuckles: hey, they do say diversity is the spice of life, right???


Speaking of seeing things differently, your last posts' descriptions of locales had a very strong visual effect on me, not sure why . . Specially the last one was almost animated, brought to mind this image




(and now you all know why I don't do drugs - my mind is psychedelic enough on its own )

As a boatman I tend to see Kan as a river moving through a gorge, and while it may be scary-looking from up above, the river is showing the way through - how to go about it.

Nice visuals, both.

Snorkeling off a secluded beach on St. Thomas, my group followed the coral strewn flats out to the end of a rocky peninsula, where the 15 feet deep bottom suddenly dropped into a deep canal - like an underwater gorge that winded along like a river. There were a few grouper swimming lazily along the bottom of the deep canal, each weighing well over a hundred pounds. I gasped at this sudden and dramatic change of depth and the natural life each was suited for.

As we swam along the surface, watching those huge grouper over a eighty feet below us, and we rounded to the other side of the outcropping, the bottom disappeared into the abyss somewhere beneath us, as we followed the long land mass back toward the beach, when a massive leopard manta ray slowly became visible, "flying" gracefully upward to investigate our strange tiny finned forms, so out of our own environment. The ray continue upward and I tugged the fin of the friend swimming along in front of me, pointing down to the ray. I think my eyes must have been as big and round as golf balls, and my heart beat pounded hard against my chest. We all began kicking and slapping the surface to alarm the ray, none of us educated enough to know it was quite harmless, and divers will sometimes hitch a ride of their back. No way we were interested in attempting that. The ray gracefully changed directions and headed back down through the sun rays, shining through the clear depths.

When we finally reached the shallows we realized that it was covered with black spiny sea urchins, which we miraculously avoided by riding the uppermost surface of rolling small waves, until we could step again onto the white sandy beach.

The Caribbean Sea is so much more than a body of water, even the tiny two mile stretch which we covered held more diversity than we were able to see, more danger than any of us had imagined, more mystery than we could fathom. There's no way one single hexagram could cover it all.

It also bears remembering that even the high mountains around the earth were once under water, and most likely more than once. Kun indeed is the mother of it all.

My apologies for launching this thread and then drifting away - partly down to me having been ill for a week - but my first reading of the posts here suggest members have got involved in exactly the way I was hoping. I look forward to reading the messages properly in the next few days with my I Ching alongside me and then coming back on here. Blessings to all.

I would say that Tui is also Sea.

That Sun = Wind/Wood can also be symbolised as a ship.