hello everyone,

I wonder how hexagram 35 might have played out in your readings when it shows up relating to 56:

on the one hand, the description of the line talks about losing helpers by fire, yet the fire of 35 is generally seen as positive progress, illuminating, clarifying, 'helping' rather than destroying. The fan yao of the line also carries largely positive meaning, which makes me wonder who is the helper here and what is burnt . .

this reading has come up as an explanation of a friend's approach which has muddled the waters for me in an important decision I need to make soon. I know the friend approached with good intentions but in the process blew up my whole reasoning so far, so I'm trying to see whether I should allow this to happen or stick to my guns (and my prior approach) . . should I trust the 'fire' they brought or hold on to my ground?

Any of your experiences with this line would be hugely helpful, thanks!!

Hello there, lady wanderer

In my own practical experience with 56.3, I have found LiSe's translation and translation notes to be most clearly helpful and relative. The similarity of itinerant (on the move) troops and fire (running across a mountain) seem pretty obvious. When the troop leaves their temporary camp, they burn it down, destroying any clues that might otherwise provide intelligence to those in pursuit. This fire isn't anything negative, as some translations present it, which is why it leads to and relates to 35.

When one decides to move out, there's no turning back, there's no fuel left behind to burn. One has no choice but to move ahead.

I've found this to be practical imagery.

hey there mr wanderer!

thanks for your comments & experience . . still have to think how it all applies in my case: do I need to burn down the strategy so far or keep with my decision . .

I'll keep this stewing for a while longer (no big fires, I promise!)

rodaki said:

hello everyone,

I wonder how hexagram 35 might have played out in your readings when it shows up relating to 56:

on the one hand, the description of the line talks about losing helpers by fire, yet the fire of 35 is generally seen as positive progress, illuminating, clarifying, 'helping' rather than destroying. The fan yao of the line also carries largely positive meaning, which makes me wonder who is the helper here and what is burnt . .



Any of your experiences with this line would be hugely helpful, thanks!!

Click to expand...

I thought it might be helpful to look at the line pathway to give an idea of the inner experience of this
and then think about how 35 plays in.

Line pathway goes

56.3

35.3 } your inner experience might feel like these lines
36.4 }

55.4 (paired line, ie your answer upside down)


From that I'm getting here this revolves around how much of your own fire light to display.

this reading has come up as an explanation of a friend's approach which has muddled the waters for me in an important decision I need to make soon. I know the friend approached with good intentions but in the process blew up my whole reasoning so far, so I'm trying to see whether I should allow this to happen or stick to my guns (and my prior approach) . . should I trust the 'fire' they brought or hold on to my ground?

Click to expand...

If you read 35.3 and 36.4 as a story...it could look like a dichotomy. It feels perhaps like someone wholly supports you (35.3) but it sure doesn't look like they do (36.4 and 55.4)......

So having wandered around the line pathway and seen 36.4 (your feelings) and paired line 55.4 I think you may mistakenly distrust this because you do not recognise it as the helpful influence it used to be....but I think it still is...it is just quite unrecognisable at the moment.

So I'd go with the usual take on 56.3 here...because if you 'hold your ground' you are losing the 35 opportunity. If you can make your fire smaller and just trust for now that you can't see how new thing from this person is going to work, but it is going to work....well I think that is your best way forward.


I went to the line path to see what kinds of feeling would make the traveller lose her precious opportunity in 35. I think it would be that you just cannot recognise it right now....there's the 'dark lord' in 55.4.


So I reckon it is advice not to stick to your guns....to allow it. If you insist it is only your way here I think you might lose that opportunity and worse lose that helper that is actually supporting you even though you cannot see it right now.

If I may add, I think it's important to burn down ones own troop's camp and not deliberately burn down another's, since an important theme of 56 is to not judge others or declare war at this time. The battle is for ones own independence, not vengeance or offensive warfare.

Also, young servants aren't necessarily people, which is why I chose the word intelligence. Sometimes they are a lesser part of oneself; helpful during times of rest, an anchor or burden in times of travel - like the metaphor of leaving the boat behind once you've crossed the river.

this reading has come up as an explanation of a friend's approach

Click to expand...

It occurred to me I was seeing it as advice to you....if the 56.3 is what he is doing then what I said above in my earlier post won't apply I guess

Sometimes I think 35 as relating hexagram can be 'too keen' - seeing everything as an opportunity and eager to make the most of it. 'Isn't it great that this shelter has a hearth? Let's add all the wood now and get the best blaze we possibly can!' Whether you consider the results a good or bad thing will depend on whether your chocolate supply was in the shelter at the time, I suppose...

It sort-of looks as though this is describing your friend's well-intentioned intervention very nicely, without particularly telling you how to respond to it. Time for a more direct question, maybe?

I can appreciate Rodaki's dilemma. I used to view 56.3 as a grave error on my part, but in time noticed that it didn't seem to turn out that way. That's why LiSe's rendering started making more practical sense to me. Her explanation through her notes - not speaking of commentary but interpretation of symbols - placed in more of a military tactical context, seemed to accurately fit my circumstances, and the idea of no turning back, as fire across the mountain must continue moving ahead, would lead me to continuing progress. Sometimes sacrifices must be made.

sooo said:

Hello there, lady wanderer

In my own practical experience with 56.3, I have found LiSe's translation and translation notes to be most clearly helpful and relative. The similarity of itinerant (on the move) troops and fire (running across a mountain) seem pretty obvious. When the troop leaves their temporary camp, they burn it down, destroying any clues that might otherwise provide intelligence to those in pursuit. This fire isn't anything negative, as some translations present it, which is why it leads to and relates to 35.

When one decides to move out, there's no turning back, there's no fuel left behind to burn. One has no choice but to move ahead.

I've found this to be practical imagery.

Click to expand...

Hi, Bruce:

The word lu3 often translated TRAVELLER meant trip, travel, by extension traveller and also troops, a brigade, an army.

56.3 literally says:


In only four words, be troops or be a lonely traveller, the own place for resting during travel results burnt.

Another four words trace a parallellism:

Sang4, the first word means great sadness for someone or something gotten lost.
Tong2 pu2, third and fiurth words means CHILD (female or male), or if young, VIRGIN, without sexual experience. I believe that the translation YOUNG HELPER is euphemistic ans less suggestive.

The travel far from home or the military life are ways of innitiation after which one loses the child's innocence. the price for acquiring experience.

Being that 56.3 leads to H.35, I believe that it speaks of sexual innitiation, but that's another story.

All the best,

Charly.

rodaki said:

hello everyone,

I wonder how hexagram 35 might have played out in your readings when it shows up relating to 56:

on the one hand, the description of the line talks about losing helpers by fire, yet the fire of 35 is generally seen as positive progress, illuminating, clarifying, 'helping' rather than destroying. The fan yao of the line also carries largely positive meaning, which makes me wonder who is the helper here and what is burnt . .

this reading has come up as an explanation of a friend's approach which has muddled the waters for me in an important decision I need to make soon. I know the friend approached with good intentions but in the process blew up my whole reasoning so far, so I'm trying to see whether I should allow this to happen or stick to my guns (and my prior approach) . . should I trust the 'fire' they brought or hold on to my ground?

Any of your experiences with this line would be hugely helpful, thanks!!

Click to expand...

Dear Dora:

H.35 has of course positive connotations, the name of the hexagram means, among many other things, TO GET A RAISE, TO PUSH FORWARD. The old character for 晉 jin4 depicted TWO ARROWS getting its TARGET (or maybe the SUN). Shooting arrows was usual during celebrations and was even a sexual metaphor.

H.35 speaks of KANG HOU (1), the Exuberant Lord, also the Tranquil Lord, that applied his granted horse to reproduce ordinarily, hitting the mark of three joins during a daytime.

I was said that it meant he was three times received in audience by the King in the same day. Nothing strange, given that the King was his elder brother. I didn'n believe it.

I'm wondering if your decision might be about taking a passionate attitude or a tranquil one.

Best regards,


Charly

________________________
(1) More details in the following thread:
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?20185-Who-was-Kang-Hou&highlight=
I don't know what happened to the page of Ulrich Theobald "chinaknowledge.de" there quoted.

F_ck the IMF!

Ch.

AH!!!
(sending big smiles all around, happy for all your replies & comments! . . taoday (sic) has felt like a blessed day since its beginning . . - there's a typo in 'today', I know, a lucky one too . .)


I haven't checked back the previous days, they were kinda hectic and new stuff happened, related to the question here, so there was further light to be accounted for:

I'll try to keep this away from sharing circumstantial facts since we're still in 'exploring divination', I will add though that my friend's attitude was to present me evidence AGAINST the good fortune of a possible trip&moving house, which of course opened up the interpretation of the line to multiple pov at once . . that happens rather often in my practice though.


Hilary, you've given me a great key in the 'darker' (so to speak) meaning of 35 as being 'too keen': indeed, that describes my friend's attitude in this case. She was over-enthusiastic in using her abilities & knowledge and in the process she unintentionally 'burnt away' my own, limited yet intimate connection to the issues at stake . .

The young servant was my intuition, tentative as I was about it, since it leads me down a path I don't whole-heartedly embrace - even though I recognize it as necessary- while the passing fire was my friend's hastiness in helping me avoid the whole unpleasantness of moving . . at one stroke Yi was advising me to not get carried away by external thoughts (answering the question I actually asked) and to go on with my parting move (answering to an underlying, unsaid question)


. . not sure if I love it more or get miffed when it gives me these convoluted double entendre answers, where I can - so easily!- trip over myself

charly said:

Dear Dora:

H.35 has of course positive connotations, the name of the hexagram means, among many other things, TO GET A RAISE, TO PUSH FORWARD. The old character for 晉 jin4 depicted TWO ARROWS getting its TARGET (or maybe the SUN). Shooting arrows was usual during celebrations and was even a sexual metaphor.

H.35 speaks of KANG HOU (1), the Exuberant Lord, also the Tranquil Lord, that applied his granted horse to reproduce ordinarily, hitting the mark of three joins during a daytime.

I was said that it meant he was three times received in audience by the King in the same day. Nothing strange, given that the King was his elder brother. I didn'n believe it.

I'm wondering if your decision might be about taking a passionate attitude or a tranquil one.

Best regards,


Charly

________________________
(1) More details in the following thread:
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?20185-Who-was-Kang-Hou&highlight=
I don't know what happened to the page of Ulrich Theobald "chinaknowledge.de" there quoted.

F_ck the IMF!

Ch.

Click to expand...

hello Charly

there's a lot of information and knowledge to glean from both your posts about both hexagrams . . the 'mourning' part of 56.3 is a great such example . . the 'young servant' part too, although in this case the youthfulness was in mating intuition&logic . .

What mostly makes sense though, I inferred from your second post and the specifics of 35 . . the idea of more than one tries to find the centre, the heart of the situation and to practice one's discrimination abilities, which was a big part of the answer. The 'Exuberant Lord' was a beautiful way to highlight again what Hilary mentioned about one being 'too keen' in 35. Looking at that reading again, 35 was pointing to the need of asking for that 3rd audition and re-examining and it was great I got to do that here!


p.s.
- Bruce, of course you skipped the surface and went str8 to my underlying question
- Trojina your analysis actually incorporated a lot of elements of my thinking process . . I think the patterns' reading helps a lot in bringing to the surface and enunciating the past of the question, maybe sometimes part of its answer too



_________


Dear Charly, let me just add to the F_ck the IMF! also F_ck all those who feed the war machines! . . I live on an island that receives tens of refugees from Syriah and other Middle Eastern countries and I'll be moving into an island that receives THOUSANDS of them DAILY. Despite our own troubles, we are still lucky enough to have NO idea how brutal reality is for them; we only see the markings of being ravaged . .