Having fish or no fish.....

svenrus · Jun 20, 2015

Hexagram 44.2.4.

Line 2: Having fish in the cookhouse.
Line 4: No fish in the cookhouse.
(Richard Rutt, Zhouyi a bronzeagedocument)
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NanJing-rule: Maintext. (1)
Zhu Xi : The upper changing line ie fourth line. (2)
Alfred Huang: The lower changing line (3)
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1) http://www.biroco.com/yijing/Shih-chuan_Chen.pdf
2) http://www.biroco.com/yijing/basics.htm In the section "How to interpret changing lines"
3) The complete I Ching; end of introduction, from his master Yin
------------------
I have seen in an online I Ching page that all of the six lines should be taken in consideration when reading the oracle; It sounds logic, and in this case it should then be something like: "In the inner/lower trigram, Fish in the cookhouse and In the outer/upper trigram, No fish in the cookhouse..." with Upper and Lower trigrams symbolic meaning taken into account.
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So: Fish in the tank or No fish in the tank ???
Possibility (1): "Though she be healthy, do not take her to wife"
(2): "No fish in the cookhouse"
(3): "Fish in the cookhouse"

pocossin · Jun 21, 2015

I speculate that the container that holds the fish is a fishing weir.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fishing_weir

pocossin · Jun 22, 2015

Does anyone have an idea as to why the guest(s) in 44.2 does not benefit from this fish? My current idea is that the fish was caught in the weir overnight, and the guest must leave early in the morning and does not have time to stay for the fish to be prepared. Generally, the best is put out for guests, but guests must follow their own schedules.

Liselle · Jun 22, 2015

pocossin said:
Does anyone have an idea as to why the guest(s) in 44.2 does not benefit from this fish?

Generally, the best is put out for guests

That's what I always thought it meant, that these fish are poor specimens in some way - or, as you said, Pocossin, there's not enough time to prepare them. As a metaphor, it might mean:

an undeveloped idea (you've had a thought, but you haven't worked it out well enough to be sure about it or explain it to other people. Presenting it too early might kill it unfairly, or it might not stand up to your own further analysis).
a relationship in the very early stages. (You're interested in someone, but it's not time to meet their parents.)

The little software program I use for casting translates 44.2 as:

"A fish in the kitchen.
Adequate for your
humble needs,
but not suitable for guests.
No mistake."

Another twist might be that there aren't enough fish for everyone.

(I have no idea how reliable the translations are in this little software program, but there are times when I think they fit my reading perfectly. Interestingly, 44's Image was one of those at least once, which I posted about here.)

Trojina · Jun 22, 2015

I have the idea that Steve Marshall/Joel Biroco posted quite a lot here about the 'bin rites' and 44.2. I think these rites were to do with marriage.

Looked for the thread where it was discussed...a very old thread, maybe 2004, can't find it

However I sort of found what I wanted on page 113 of 'The Mandate of Heaven' by Steve Marshall...

'The book of odes has several songs in which fish caught in nets or traps are an indication of the blessings Heaven will bestow on newly-weds. Ode 104 associates a wicker fish trap with a girl going to be married'

From Waley's Book of Songs Ode 104

Wicker Fish-Trap

In the wicker fish-trap by the bridge
Are fish both bream and roach.
A lady of Qi goes to be married;
Her escort is like a trail of clouds.

In the wicker fish trap by the bridge
Are fish both bream and tench.
A lady of Qi goes to be married;
Her escort is thick as rain.

In the wicker fish-trap by the bridge
The fish glide free.
A lady of Qi goes to be married;
Her escort is like a river.

If fish caught in the wicker trap are symbols of fertility and good marriage they are omens that can change as apparently there was a trial period of 3 months for the marriage during which time the wife could be sent back. Quoting from 'Mandate of Heaven' again

The melon wrapped with willow might have been an offering to the river goddess. Possibly it was inspected next day for marriage portents. In the second line there is 'no fish in the wrapping', which is an ominous sign, the beginning of trouble. But in the fourth line one or more fish has got trapped, though this is still interpreted cautiously: it is not yet time for the groom to introduce his bride to his family's ancestors, there will be a period during which she can be sent back to her own family. The line reads 'Fish in the wrapping no fault. Not beneficial to perform the bin rite.' The character bin, ordinarily translated as 'guests' is in this context a reference to the ceremony where a new wife is introduced to her husband's ancestors and formally accepted into the household.

I'm confused as he says there are no fish in the basket in line 2 but there are in line 4

but it's the other way around. This is what I think was discussed in more detail in the thread I'm trying to find. Frustrating...as that thread made an impact on me yet the 'search' function makes no useful response to 'bin rites'.

In that thread I think he said one would not celebrate until the bin rites ceremonies were complete, there would no point in a celebration before these rites were done and the girl were completely accepted into the family by being introduced to the ancestors.

So I take 44.2 to be the time where there is a lot of promise, the fish are there (although confusingly not, in the above quote where this is the case with 44.4 not 44.2) but it isn't a time to go shouting "yay we are married let's celebrate" because things aren't quite ready yet and there may be no marriage. Well there is a marriage but there's the three month 'trial period' before the bin rites..

Also if 'bin' is not 'guests' then the line isn't really about giving guests fish at all.

Hilary's version

'In this basket there are fish - not a mistake.
Not fruitful to entertain guests'

I don't think the idea is ever that the fish are served up to the guests. The fish being there is an omen of good fortune for the marriage. But it is too early to entertain people to celebrate this. I assume the entertaining is done after the bin rites, after the girl has been accepted by the family and introduced to the husband's ancestors.

I do wish I could I find that thread because I think the confusions were cleared up there

bradford · Jun 23, 2015

I've tried.

Trojina · Jun 23, 2015

I see Lise mentions 'bin rite' too

9 at 2: Containing fish. Without fault. No harvest performing the Bin rite.
Make sure that nobody who is not essential to you can interfere with your life and future. Your future has to be YOUR future, not a mixture of influences. Only what passes through the gates of your inner essence and is found of value may influence.

Liselle · Jun 23, 2015

Is this the thread people are looking for (called "44-33 Does it mean stop, it'll be good if you don't do a thing")?

https://web.archive.org/web/20050108225221/http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/48/830.html

pocossin · Jun 23, 2015

A fish in a fish trap is analogous to a baby in amniotic fluid. Is the woman powerful (big) because she is potentially carrying a male heir? Who are the guests and what is the bin1 ritual? The bin1 ritual was apparently (I have found no description of it) when the couple payed their respects to the spirits of the man's ancestors by kneeling before the tablets of his ancestors. As the spirits were considered to be aware and present, they are the 'guests'. Why is 44.2 unfavorable for the spirits? Possibly it is line position. Line 2 is feminine, suggesting that the offspring will be female and unable to continue the sacrifices to the ancestors.

Trojina · Jun 23, 2015

Is this the thread people are looking for (called "44-33 Does it mean stop, it'll be good if you don't do a thing")?

https://web.archive.org/web/20050108...es/48/830.html

Yes....my God how did you manage to find it ? What did you put search bar ? Wow it was from 12 years ago, I was Louise there...12 years ago, I was recalling a thread from 12 years ago, Good Grief. I only remembered the 'bin rite' bit. Thanks Lisa ! I will read it while cringing at another incarnation...

Liselle · Jun 23, 2015

I just used my little substitution add-on thingamabob to replace all the Louise's with Trojina :mischief:

.

I read almost all of that thread and never once did my unobservant self suspect anything. And yes, your memory is prodigious, and a little bit fearsome, to be honest

.

(It was Yi!

I asked about finding it, and got 30-unchanging encouragement. Then some trial-and-error - the key Google was "steve marshall OR biroco 44.2" - top result was a thread in which, amazingly, Val had written out the title of the lost thread. Google site search using the title listed a link to issue 41 of Hilary's old newsletter, which contained the link that worked at archive.org. (The thread does exist in the Clarity archives, but only the first three posts for some reason - none of Steve Marshall's comments.))

(The 30uc, by the way?!...not just encouragement, but "Clarity" - something to do with Hilary's business, other than the forum. Helped me recognize that the newsletter might matter. Isn't that splendid?)

Trojina · Jun 23, 2015

Splendid ? Splendid is an understatement, it's an outstanding piece of clear sighted detective work.

If ever you tire of your day job you could be the world's first Yijing based detective agency....I can see the sign now

30 30 Vision Detective Agency

No stone left unturned...
Fast results
Discreet service
Get the world's oldest Oracle on your case

Call Lisa today on 303030'

What a great 30uc example. Can I copy it over ?

I thought all Clarity archives were still available here....obviously not.

Liselle · Jun 23, 2015

I love your sense of humor.

Yes, you may copy it (in the 30uc thread, you mean?)

(And Val, wherever you've gotten to...a grateful forum thanks you...)

svenrus · Jun 24, 2015

44.2.4 > 53

But the question is: can You receive a satisfactory answer saying Yes and No at the same time ?

At least this was the reason for my question:

svenrus · Jun 24, 2015

.... following the socalled NanJing-rule only the main-prediction/the Judgement should be taken into account...

Trojina · Jun 24, 2015

svenrus said:
44.2.4 > 53

But the question is: can You receive a satisfactory answer saying Yes and No at the same time ?

At least this was the reason for my question:

So this is a question about interpreting contradictory lines in your reading ? I couldn't see that that was what you were asking in your first post.

Well that would come down to ways of interpreting. I thought you were exploring the lines more generally.

There's many ways to see lines that appear to contradict. I would look at the change patterns in the reading for help. Yang pattern (where all change lines are yang) here is 40 so you come to the question seemingly via being pushed (44) to make a clear choice (40). It seems to me that one choice is more fruitful than the other. Your 44.2 choice is better than your 44.4 choice.

If we just change line 2 we come to hexagram 33. It seems here the choice of staying somewhat retired is helpful. If we just change line 4 we'd have 57. I'm just checking what the lines change to by themselves (there's a word for this...Lisa will know...steps of change ?) Going on penetrating in to this (57) isn't leading anywhere. The 44 suggests something you are being almost pushed to make a choice over something quite quickly. The best way forward seems to be taking your time (53) and opting for the 44.2 option. That would be holding off a little, staying reserved (44.2) not be tempted into grabbing empty offers (44.4).

You haven't asked for an interpretation but I'm just throwing it in there in case it might add any light.

I'd thought your query was more theoretical and general, but not sure if you were trying to get a handle on your own reading.

.... following the socalled NanJing-rule only the main-prediction/the Judgement should be taken into account...

Rules like this just seem to limit interpretation within very narrow bounds. If you have 2 lines moving why would you ignore them ?

svenrus · Jun 24, 2015

My mistake. Yes, it was about the conflict occuring when the I answers both "Yes" and "No" at the same time; I can't accept such an answer for being final... (The warlord ask his diviner "will we succeed in an attach ?" - I would not like to be the diviner saying "Yes, but... No" in such a situation).
Somehow they - the early interpreters - must have had an method to solve such situations. NanJing-rule ? it's but only a suggestion made out of studying some old scripts isn't it....

Another example is hex. 1.1.5 - I mean: either is the dragon submerged in the lake OR flying in the sky. It can't be both/and. OK. dragons seen as a magic creature, but: we want a Yes or a No when consulting the I, I guess. Not to end up with another question/bewilderness

Trojina · Jun 24, 2015

Often lines can show a progression. I often find that. 1.1 dragon in deep.....later on in 1.5 he flies.

Also there's often an 'if'. If you do line 2 this is what happens, if you do line 4 this is what happens.

Yi's answers are rich showing many layers of a situation. Like a conversation with a friend

Me. Do you think the day favours swimming today ?

Friend. At first yes, it will be warm and sunny (line x) but later there will be a storm (line y) so if you want to swim go early.

Imagine if I asked the friend this question and she could only say 'yes' or 'no'. How much more limited her answer would be. If she could only say 'yes' or 'no' I wouldn't have a good idea about swimming that day really.

I don't think there is any need to limit answers with rules.

svenrus · Jun 24, 2015

It looks like what HeyLiSe writes on the subject (link on #1).
I understand You in the way that the situation starts with line one/bottomline and evolves up through the lines like the topic of the consultion ends with the topline, or ?

svenrus · Jun 24, 2015

... I'm not a professional diviner just curious ie I have nothing at risk.

(just for information. Without luck I've been playing with the possibilities a while ago: [url]http://www.svenrus.dk/hexagramevolutions.pdf[/URL])

butterfly spider · Jun 24, 2015

I was going to write a new thread on substitution if names - as sometimes when you read a thread started by say bilbo baggies - it sounds extremely similar to say rj22vx. I had been thinking of asking if this is a common problem. You must get people on this site who reinvent themselves for reasons personal to them. You get a sense of this though - it comes through I digress..

With regards he. 44. I got this canoeing on the Menai Straits yes to go no to not. I went. Then I had to decide right of he weir (with disused fish farm) or not. I chose left

This hex is about yes or no
Dishonesty honesty
Integrity/ or not
Yes no

Sometimes it doesn't matter

Trojina · Jun 24, 2015

If you've been around since 2002, which I have, it's likely you go away for a while and come back...I've also been 'Void' a long time ago..Also there have been one or two system upgrades that meant name change. I know system change meant I switched from 'Void'. So it's not a 'problem' it's just life. As long as you only use one user name at a time it's okay. Now and then people post with several user names and have conversations with themselves in threads. When that happens Hilary asks them to choose just one name and stay with that.

Chris Lofting had a number of names.....erm 'lightofreason', 'elvis' (?) erm well I know over the years he had a few names and so will many who go away for a year or two. Ooops off topic sorry Svrenus.

Liselle · Jun 24, 2015

I found one 44.2.4 > 53 reading which seems decent:

Was worrying about getting my elderly cat to eat enough, what flavors of food she'd like best. I had different flavors on hand, but she didn't seem to like some of them. In particular, she wasn't eating chicken flavor anymore, even though she had previously done well with it. I asked Yi, "What if I take some of the chicken back to the store and exchange it for beef?" (At that moment she seemed to like the beef and I thought there was none of it left - I had already talked to the store and they said it was fine to exchange unopened cans.)

The outcome: later on, I remembered I had put some cat food in another spot, because there were too many cans for the normal spot. It turned out I had quite a bit of beef.

I'm not sure what the lines mean - help? The obvious part, which I understood at the time, was that there was no need to run to the store right then. The bin rites in 44.2, I suppose?

44.4 - the key might be that I did this reading before I realized I actually had some beef on hand. I was only looking in the spot which had "no fish." Maybe the emphasis is "in this basket there are no fish."

LiSe's 44.4 commentary says, "Too much distance causes sterility." Hilary says, "Perhaps you need to move your nets..." Maybe the point is that I would have to really "couple with" (engage with) the situation in order to remember there was another place to look? Just plopping my net into the usual spot in the river, by rote, wouldn't work this time.

The step of change for 44.4 is 57 (thank you for reminding us, Trojina) - which makes sense. I had to "penetrate" more.

Both lines together, changing to 53...um...something that appears to be one way, but is actually a different way, and in time you'll find that out? A situation with two different "baskets," one with fish and one without?

My other 44.2.4 readings seem to be incomprehensible. (How to Have a Cheerful Day: realize that most of your I Ching readings are useless to you :weep:

.)

Anyone else have an example?

Liselle · Jun 24, 2015

Oh, I see Butterfly posted an example while I was typing

.

"Sometimes it doesn't matter" - thank you. That was something I wondered about while looking at one of my readings. I was really worried about a big decision several years ago. I decided not to do it then, but did do it later, and it has worked out just fine. It would have worked out just as well the first time, too, but there was also no harm in deciding against it.

I'm not sure how to tie that to the text though. There must be a way, since now two of us have said it...

butterfly spider · Jun 24, 2015

I think the idea of a double 4 is important here
44
Bingo - I got a full house once at the fair with my man for 44

I just think that sometimes when we ask for a yes or no answer and we get a hex like 44 itnisnsaying that the outcome doesn't matter. Left or right if the weir on the Menai straits with no fish in anymore
Fish or no fish the decision does not matter

I think sometimes we are so caught in the question that the answer really does not matter

I used to make up alter ego names with my children - obolop dumyertwistle omilomolump ....
A name is only something we hold into for a while.

Trojina · Jun 24, 2015

I don't think 44 can be said to mean 'it doesn't matter' as a general kind of statement. I mean if you ask about a small matter any answer won't matter much.

In fact as far as things 'mattering' go 44 is one time you actually need to sit up and take note ....unless you are asking about something of no consequence of course. The advice is not just to think 'ah it doesn't matter' that just isn't what 44 says.

Liselle · Jun 24, 2015

I think it helps, though, if we can figure out how the text says it doesn't matter. It would help us apply what we've learned to future readings. And, there's some danger (I think) that we're merely fooling ourselves into thinking 44.2.4 > 53 sometimes means "it doesn't matter."

For example, 44.2's text mentions conducting bin rites, or entertaining guests. So we should be able to identify the bin rites and/or guests in our situation. In our examples, maybe the bin rites would be "worrying about this decision" - it is "not fruitful" to fret about it, because either way will be fine?

More importantly for such readings (I think) is the fact that in the lines, 44.2 says there are fish, but 44.4 says there are no fish. If the decision really doesn't matter, how can one option have fish but the other have no fish? One possibility might be that it doesn't matter whether we catch fish at all, but I think we should be able to show that in our example. (And regardless, I'm stuck if readings explicitly state "there are fish here...there are no fish there" - it's all about fish, fish, fish - but then the fish don't actually matter. Harumph, is my reaction to that. (I think. But I might be off on the wrong track.)

Even before all that, it's probably necessary to identify the fish themselves. In my first example, the fish would be "a flavor of food my cat will eat."

Your example...re-reading it, I'm giggling. Turning right would have taken you past a disused fish farm? How's that for an apt reading

.

Although on second thought - which line is it? 44.4, with literally no fish? Or 44.2, where there is maybe the idea of fish, but you can't marry them or serve them to guests?

Liselle · Jun 24, 2015

Cross-posting - good point, Trojina. In my example, the 44.2.4 reading was in the middle of quite a few about making the decision, which is why I didn't post it in the first place (too many readings to tease out just one). Even though the big decision didn't matter much overall, the part I was asking about in that specific question may have been different.

And yes, 44 is not a "meh" hexagram. Even when it's a brief encounter, it still shakes you up.

butterfly spider · Jun 24, 2015

Lisa you have a point here

Big things in life are probably going to happen - we get embroiled in the nitty gritty things - wether to take things to the cleaners turn right on the water go fishing .....

Yes 44 is not about decisions because the peripheral benal decisions do not matter
If you asked meaningful questions then hex44 is a different beast

The fish farm on the Menai Straits is quite a landmark - but the decisions of canoeist or sailors has no influence in wether it has fish or not. No fish or fish - it makes absolutely no difference....

Liselle · Jun 24, 2015

...I don't know. I am guilty of many (many) I Ching sins, but most of the problems I have are the banal everyday kind. Unfortunately they don't seem trivial when they're happening.

(Did you get my message that I cleaned out my mailbox? Sorry about that

)

Having fish or no fish.....

svenrus

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svenrus

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butterfly spider

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butterfly spider

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