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What's it going to take??? The Michael Jackson verdict

cal val

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The Michael Jackson verdicts just came in. One of the managers I work with just came into my office and said, "So now it's legal to brutally kill your wife and screw your neighbors' kids in California... what next?" My question to the Yi is 'What's it going to take????"

The answer was 7.1.2 to 24. I'm too distraught knowing that yet another predator got away with it and is hitting the streets with his penis intact. I can't think to see the answer.
I hope you'll help interpret this reading... please.

Thanks.

Love,

Val
 
M

micheline

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Comment on MIchael Jackson's verdict: 15.3.4 >16.

Personally, I dont think he is guilty.
Strange, yes. Childlike and foolish in major ways, yes. BUt a sexual abuser of children, I am not at all convinced.

They say this child was the perfect "victim" profile for a pedophile looking to groom someone for molestation. BUt it is equally true that for someone looking to profit from false accusations about child abuse, MJ is the perfect target. He is strange, he admits to letting children sleep in his bed, and he has money.

I read a book written by a psychologist who worked extensively with pedophiles who were very candid about what they did and how painstakingly they did it. I dont think MJ fits the profile of a pedophile. He was much too "sloppy" about his habits and lifestyle. He is more like an emotionally goofy overgrown adolescent than a pedophile.
 

cal val

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Hi Micheline...

I've read exactly the opposite... that he does match the profile of a pedophile but 'much bigger than life'... being the drama queen that he is. Only the one psychologist, Stanley Katz, said he was more like a regressed 10-year old boy than a pedophile, and he also confirmed he was certain that Jackson did molest the boy. I've read the transcripts of the boy's interviews with the sheriff and the interview with Dr. Katz. The boy was molested... no doubt about it. Takes one to know one. I was molested when I was 11 years old.

And does anyone remember years ago when LaToya was spilling the family secrets and said that both she and he were molested by their father? Men who were molested as children are the stuff that pedophiles are made of.

There's so much proof out there he's a chester the molester it's really sickening. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/ Jimmy Safechuck was the first (known) to be paid off... $1 mil. http://www.wireimage.com/GalleryListing.asp?nbc1=1&navtyp=CAL====43225&ym=198803

Michael Jackson needs to be locked away where kids are safe from him and where he can get help.

The original tag for 15 is "Rat", and the original hexagram statement is about sneaky-flying-below-the-radar behavior. Do you have any thoughts on 7.1.2?

Love,

Val
 
M

micheline

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If he is guilty, it would be nice if he could be helped...altho no one in prison gets much help, and pedophilia is not something that seems to respond to treatment anyway. the pedophiles in the book I read all admitted that they would definitely repeat the act again if they had the opportunity.
but that's another whole story.

If I were to interpret 7.1.2 for your question, Val, I would say the army (prosecutors) were not well prepared when they started out and thus were doomed to fail. Line 2 of course has the reference to "3 times"....if he repeat offends and is brought to court again, a public "third time", well, that's what it will take (in answer to your original question)MHO.

Interesting what you said about hex 15...never heard that.
now, I'm off to read those links you posted...... ; )
 

bradford_h

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Hi Val-
As creepy as that freak is, but speaking as someone who was falsely accused once, I have to say that I am immensely grateful that we are innocent until proven guilty in this country.
Makes me wonder if the tabloids, newspapers and television shows might have missed something that the jury got to hear.
 

cal val

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Brad...

I have no doubt the defense team made sure none of the jury members were molested as children. If even one of the jurors had been molested, I don't believe the verdict would be not guilty. They would have recognized that boy as a kindred spirit.

What the jury saw was a grifter mom, stories being changed and a cocky flippant attitude (bravado) on the part of the victim. They didn't see what a kindred spirit would see. I've recognized the injured child in other adults around me... knocked the socks off one of my workmates recently when I said "you were weren't you?"

When I was coming out of denial I was working with a psychologist who specializes in crimes against women and who had a library filled with resource material. I learned a lot about pedophiles and victims of pedophiles and other sexual predators. One out of every four women (and a whopping one out of every five men) is sexually assaulted before the age of 18. 61% of women who are sexually harassed in the workplace were sexually assaulted as children. That says a lot about predators' radar... it takes one to know one. I don't remember what percentage of men who are convicted of sexual predatory behavior were molested as children, but it's very high as well.

Love,

Val
 

cal val

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Micheline...

I got the same thing about 7.1.2 that you did. This prosecutor KNOWS he's guilty. He's had other cases he couldn't bring to trial because of buy offs and settlements, and he jumped on this one to 'get him behind bars'. He doesn't want any more children hurt. It wasn't the right case because of the damage the mom's behavior could and did do.

Brad...

One more thing... it doesn't have anything to do with evidence anyway... it has to do with celebrity and expensive crack defensive teams and star f*cker mentality... OJ, Robert Blake, Michael Jackson. That jury didn't see evidence... they saw stars in their eyes.

Love,

Val
 

cal val

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Hi Micheline...

When I first heard that the tag for hex 15 was Rat I was almost incensed. What a contrast to what we learned in the Wilhelm/Baynes translation eh? But then I learned (theoretically) why and what happened to 15 over time. I eventually found a lot of logic in 'Rat' as the tag.

Though there are people who like to make conjunctive pairs of the hexagrams 'pair' in their meanings, I don't believe there are really many that can be without a good strreeeetch. Hexagrams 15 and 16 are two of the few that can be in at least one respect, and that is that both are about animals... a small one, rat (rodent) and a large one, elephant.

Even when Confucianists had their way with the book and molded it to their agenda and used the word modesty for the tag of hex 15 rather than rat, modesty still didn't mean to them what it meant to the Christians it was presented to in the 17th century (the Christian meaning being reflected in the Wilhelm meaning). And I don't believe 15 meant the same thing during the Han Dynasty as it did during the Zhou Dynasty.

Richard Rutt translates the line statements (I've left off the auguries and indications):

Base (6): Scrunching rat
(6) 2: Squealing rat
(9) 3: Industrious rat
(6) 4: Ripping rat
(6) 5: Not rich, because of the neighbors.
Top (6): Sqealing rat

Richard Kunst translates the word as rodent; and, in his translation notes, Rutt says:

<blockquote>In later usage qian means a hamster. This would not be the tiny Golden Hamster popular pet of the West, but Cricetulus triton, the Great Grey Hamster, also known as the Korean Grey Rat... whole populations have been known to migrate with farmers, living off their crops. It is colloquially referred to as a rat.

Partly because of their infestation of dwellings and foodstores, rodents are a rich source of omen material. The behavior of the Great Grey Hamster may appear particularly ominous, for it is a solitary, untameable animal that adopts a humanoid stance, standing on its hind legs with forepaws folded. It attacks other rodents and will even kill and eat others of its own species.</blockquote>Hexagram 35.4 describes the rodent's stance - Advancing with hands folded like a mouse's paw. Rutt chooses to differentiate the animal in 35.4 from the one in hexagram 15 by using the word mouse in 35.4, and I don't understand why. It appears to me to be the same animal and the same animal as in Ode 113.

Yesterday I gave a really succinct and insufficient interpretation of the behavior originally intimated by 15 (as I see it), but if you think about the behavior of this rodent while it's getting into the millet crop in the fields and stores, you can pretty much imagine the behavior yourself.

Love,

Val
 

hilary

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An alternative view on Hexagram 15 and the Great Grey Hamster (which does look for all the world like a rat). I think it's a mistake to attach our associations with the word 'rat' to it. It has a completely different Chinese name from the one in 35,4, so there's no reason to think it the same animal.

The one at 35,4 I think is a skulking thief of grain: it responds to prosperity by stealing and spoiling, because it's too small to see the store as a whole.

15's - well... its existence in the text at all is theoretical, of course. The name of the hexagram in the received text is 'words' + 'uniting' (see LiSe's site). The theory is that it was originally 'uniting', being used not for 'words'+'uniting' (= authenticity) but for 'rodent'+'uniting' = the Rat. Again, see LiSe's site.

OK, so why would it be called a 'uniting rodent'? This is where my imagination kicks in - coupled with the not-inconsiderable fact that this hexagram has in fact meant humility and authenticity for a very long time (can someone knowledgeable tell me how long...?). Out of its deep burrows comes a large, bold rodent; it stands on its hind legs like a miniature animal version of yourself, and squeals at you.

I think it reminds you of your essential nature: I've seen this hexagram in readings meaning 'being a mirror' to someone. It punctures pretensions, dismantles artificial ideas of 'virtue'. Look at line 5 (not in Wilhelm's version)...
 

cal val

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Hilary...

WOW... considering that I could empathize with the boy when I read about his sheriff's interview and interviews with Stanley Katz, that I could feel the shame and pain and anger he felt when answering their questions, that I was so keenly reminded of my own essential nature after I was molested... you've given me something to think about here.

Thank you!

Another thought about 15 though is that it seems to me to be addressing advancing on the Shang... waging war... how to proceed... flying under the radar. The Zhou DID have stealth bombers... didn't they?

Love,

Val
 

Grandma

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Speaking about rats and hamsters, I had a dream recently about rats and gerbil like animals and an owl in a barn. In the dream their mother had abandoned them. (and I was going to sell them)
Anyway about MJ trial, I think he is a victim and a pedophile. One of the jurors ( a woman) said she was angry at the accusor's mother for letting her son sleep in MJ's room. On the other hand she believes MJ is innocent so why does she think it's wrong for the child to sleep in his room. That sounded illogical to me.
 

luz

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I think I understand the juror.

Even if MJ was innocent, allowing your child to sleep in the same room alone with a grown man is certainly not a good idea at any time, don't you think?
 

cal val

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Hi Lightangel...

Who was on trial? (This was CRIMINAL trial mind you.) Was the mom on trial for being a bad mom? She clearly appears to be a less-than-responsible mother to me. Or was MJ on trial for molesting the boy? The jury's ONLY consideration should have been the crimes, but the defense attorney, Mesereau, counting on the fact that people can easily be distracted from their original argument, used the mom as a straw dog argument.

Was the mother's intention in letting her boys stay Neverland Ranch to get her son molested? It apparently wasn't or the DA Sneddon would have tried her too.

Your statement, and the jury's reasoning, is not exactly tantamount to blaming the victim, but it sure comes close.

Love,

Val

PS... I was considering taking back the 'star-f*cker mentality' remark in my previous post... until yesterday when I read the interview with the juror Rodriquez. His statements, much to my disappointment, confirmed my remark.
 

pakua

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Who knows what was in the mother's mind? Maybe she thought, hmm, what will happen here? Maybe there's some money to be made here? Is a few million worth it? How much did the other guy get - 10 or 15 million?

We will never know what she was thinking.
 

cal val

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Pakua...

Okay... I'm stopping the straw man argument at your remark. I'm not responding to it. I'm asking YOU this time.

Who was trial?

Love,

Val
 

hester

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Because Michael was not convicted, the mother cannot be brought to trial for her compliance.
 

luz

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Hi Val,

I agree that the mom was not on trial, MJ was. To be honest, I haven't been following the trial all that much... so I really don't know much about it. I certainly don't know if he is innocent or not. I believe it is conceivable that he might be innocent, in spite of all of his odd behaviour.

I was just commenting on the juror's comment. I totally agree that any consideration regarding the mother's behaviour should not have affected his/her 'vote'. But I do understand the duality in believing him innocent and still being upset about the mother's actions.

I think I see your point and it's cleart to me this is a subject close to your heart. I certainly didn't mean to minimize anything that might have happened by focusing on the mom.

Regards.
happy.gif
 

omshante

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ahem... pardon me , may i butt in here.

all along i have thought MJ to have some degree of guilt. he is not entirely innocent. if only in the area of morality and integrity. but the courts are not set up for that. whilst justice is not seen to be done down here on the ground, he has had to pay the piper in the spiritual realms. where the intelligence of the world operates. the what is , has been and must be. his inner consciousness and mental maturity has been exposed for all the world to see. its a little like being totally naked in public.'the kings new clothes' this has been his price. he'd compromised his integrity as an amazing artist for the demands of the ego. the reading i did on the 8th of march confirmed this as the Yi would not indicate indictment. he has been fortunate in the not guilty verdicts on all counts as a result of 'his illumination by nature'. so he is not guilty down here on the ground.

however, ignorance is no excuse for unethical conduct and he must now examine his 'inner conscience' which has come under a severe challenge. the Yi indicated this in the reading in march.

this is what the Yi had to say to me:
8th March
my question: what is the likely outcome of this michael jackson case - personally i think he will be found guilty.

(the Yi chose to override my bias)

overall influence
enduring superficiality. a very dark and lonely time for this person. if he is aquitted all will be revealed. stagnation and stink on its way.

12 - 3, 4, 5, 6

a dangerous situation, test of character - the lions den - facing up to a confrontation. nowhere to run, only salvation is in the TRUTH. although there were good intentions, you insist too much on having things your own way. all you can do is stop struggling and wait. having to persevere against overwhelming odds. the truth will out. innocence has no place for worry

50 - 2, 3, 5

self interest meets kindness and generosity. convergence of opposites, natural law. nothing you can do but to face the truth and accept the consequences. this is a time of inner purification, having got your fingers burnt. this has happened in order to rid self of less exalted characteristics. facing a chastening ordeal.this is a time for proving yourself and see it as such to adopt a well balanced attitude. black and white.

12-31
a negative outcome. mud will stick. this is not a situation of the big payoff. not able to manipulate events this time. could be caught in a stalemate situation but will not walk away free. there will be setbacks and this situation will wound you. try not to be downcast and wait for better times to return (loyal fan base will see him through)

pain, but a lesson

loneliness and perseverance. a learning.


this reading and the subsequent verdict. encourages me to think of the Yi as an all compassionate oracle who's essence is that of a loving and deeply understanding parent. it does not say you will fail, but it says you will learn.

Michael Jacksons lesson is a lesson to us all. lets get beyond the words into the Yi's wisdom.

Omshante xx
 

pagan

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I was shocked and horrified when I heard the verdict about OJ Simpson, and I felt sure that he was 100% guilty of cold blooded murder. And I actually turned to my kids and said "Do you hear that? I don't care if you get caught red handed with your hand in the cookie jar and twelve cookies in each cheek of your mouth, just DENY ANY AND ALL GUILT!!!" But as time has passed, I know that even though he got off, he has lived in a true prison every since. There is not moment of peace for that man; he has to watch his back every minute of every day.

On the other hand, Michael Jackson never seemed really guilty to me. I am not saying that he hasn't had it in his mind, but that is not a crime. I do believe that he was set up and victimized because of his wealth and his weirdness, to be falsely accused. I believe it was a plot organized by attorneys. And the first legal firm Geragos and Geragos were fired by Jackson because, I believe, they were willing to take a pay off to lose the case.

There are piranhas out there in the legal profession that have no conscience. Even if Michael Jackson gave a minor alcohol and touched him indiscriminately, there is no doubt that now the whole damn world is looking, so if he were to try that again, he would be putting himself in immense jeopardy.
 

Grandma

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I think the mother went into the relationship w/ MJ for her child's sake. He had cancer, he could have died. She wanted to please him and that would cloud alot of parent's judgment. I used to find it very hard to say no to my daughter and then she suffered a spinal cord injury and is now paralylzed below the waist and then it was even harder to say no. And you think their life is so painful in the first place they should get all the happiness they can. To think that she saw MJ as an opportunity to shake MJ down you would have to believe she is one of the baseest human beings on the planet. When me and my daughter just had to speak to a lawyer in our own home about the accident and a possible lawsuit we were both depressed for a long time afterwards. To think that this mother put her children through this and that the young cancer victim was also so willing to go along with this is really pushing reality.
I think that to bellieve MJ is a pedophile and very manipulative and has millions of dollars and a public fan base to defend himself against accusations by people his has traumatized is way more believable.
 
M

micheline

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Susan...I am so sorry to hear of your daughter's accident and condition.

Unfortunately, not every parent has your decency and integrity. And yes, the prospect of easy money does bring out the basest instincts in some human beings.

Omshante....I would have interpreted your readings evry differently from the way you did, interestingly enough. For me, they would seem to point to MJ's innocence.

The mom was not on trial, but I feel her grifting past was rightfully called into question. ANYONE can accuse someone of anything they want...and people have a right to legally expose the questionable character of an accuser. It isnt ONLY a question of WHO is on trial.....it is a question of really wanting to know the truth, and credibility is extremely important to finding the truth
 

cal val

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Very interesting reading you got there Omshante. I hope he does learn his lesson. Circumstances now, however, suggest he hasn't as yet. Check out his website. I heard about it this morning on the radio. The djs were in shock... calling him delusional. This is HIS website, not a fan's... his brother Randy is the webmaster, and everything on it is done with, at the very least, MJ's approval. Don't skip the intro... watch the intro carefully... watch it again. It's unbelievable. And he's not joking. He's quite serious. It appears he considers his acquittal a momentous occasion in black history.

http://mjjsource.com/

And one of the headlines on his site:

Deliberations Day 5: Jury Deliberates for a Half Day, World Waits For Verdict.

The WORLD waits? The WHOLE world? Can you say delusions of grandeur?

I don't know if he's going to learn a lesson from the looks of this, but I sure hope so.

Susan...

I'm so sorry to hear about your daughter. Is there any hope of any degree of recovery? *hug*

Love,

Val
 

Grandma

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Val, thanks for the message about my daughter. There's hope in the sense that I never give up hope.

Re:MJ, we might never know the truth but to me he does give off the pedophile vibe. What that juror said bugged me to no end. The truth is if it wasn't MJ the mother prbably would never have let her sleep in his room. I think his celebrity helps him get away with things like that. "Everyone knows MJ is wierd and he's a little boy in a man's body and he is not into sex and he loves children because he is so pure and innocent himself" People feel like they already know celebrities and they can trust them. I think the juror who said that acquitted him because he was a big celebrity. People are in convicted by juries in this country on far less eveidence then in MJ's case. Which doesn't prove anything.
What's all this stuff about 15 and rats though?
are you discrediting Wilhelm (which is fine with me, I'm just not up on the latest w/ that)
 

omshante

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my humble apologies

the first hexagram is 29 not 12. doesn't make sense that the same hexagram should occur twice in the same line. i use I Ching love cards. thankyou Micheline for pointing out.

much love and blessing to you and your daughter Susan

Omshante
 

jte

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"To think that she saw MJ as an opportunity to shake MJ down you would have to believe she is one of the baseest human beings on the planet."

Just to comment - with 6 billion people running around on the plant, there's, perhaps, 1 billion or so people in the lowest 18% of decency...? Make it the lowest 10% and it's still on the order of 500,000,000.

Yes, I chose the numbers somewhat arbitrarily, but my point makes sense, no? I mean, with what's been going on with child sex slavery rings for, well, probably as long as there have been human beings, is it so hard to believe some lady might put her own kid at risk for millions?

Disgusting and horrific, yes, but unlikely?? There's certainly a lot of people who *wouldn't* do it, but I think there's probably all too many who would...

- Jeff
 
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micheline

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<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

the Michael Jackson trial makes me really sad, just like the OJ trial,
the Scott Peterson, etc. I feel these public trials of really
horrible events raise awareness, but a really low level of awareness
of the issues. And somehow these trials become a red herring for the
real issue. I also feel these trials 'dumb us down'. They make child
molestation more acceptable. Everybody becomes an expert on the
issue, because they have read about it, it becomes water cooler
discussion, the horror borders on circus parade, and the crime of
children being sexually exploited is only fed by the trial. To be
honest, I feel these trials are 'staged', just to submit human culture
to more and more acceptable levels of depravity. Trials like this
make me wish native americans had kept this continent
If he is a perp, it is something he has shielded from his
consciousness. He IS a child, I dont think he sees himself as an
adult capable of doing harm. I dont really see him as a sexual
person.

Child perps make me sick.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>


a friend wrote these wordsabove to me, and i thought she was spot on

I dont think MJ was ever lying when he said he loved kids and wanted to help..pedophiles do not love children.......they get off on securing complete and genuine trust and then thrill to the depravity of the control, and of course the secrecy. Pedophiles will tell you that they did not love children, they love the chase and the challenge and the power of their control
 

pakua

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People are very complex... the mother might even have had "good" motives... how much health care could a million dollars provide for her sick child?
 

cal val

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Hi Susan...

I love your post above, you've defined the sf mentality I've mentioned in two other posts very well.

"What's all this stuff about 15 and rats though? are you discrediting Wilhelm (which is fine with me, I'm just not up on the latest w/ that)"

I think Wilhelm's work is very valuable work, and there is much to learn in his translation. However, I began to notice over time that not all of his interpretations reflected my actual experiences, and some of his interpretations sounded downright sexist and/or Victorian to me. I've read a few translations besides his and noticed a good deal of disparity among them.

There are a number of scholars who have posted to this forum or who I learned about through this forum. And I began to study their work. Through them I've learned that because of the nature of the Chinese languages and because the work is in an ancient Chinese language, much of the translations over the many years have been in good part speculative. There have been a number of important archaeological finds including two very early versions of the Zhouyi that have shed more light on the culture and language that gave birth to the book. And more recent translations have been done that reflect these findings. I am now focused on these newer translations and on learning a little myself about the environment in which the book was originally written.

Love,

Val
 

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